oil burner nozzles

jimf

just wondering are many oil service guys using eh/es nozzles
instead of h/s nozzles when servicing kerosene burners
just like to get the opinion of the experienced guys
who post regularly on this forum

JohnnieK

It depends on the boiler and the burner. The installation literature will recommend which to use.

jimf

thanks very much for ur reply johnnie k mainly firebirds/grants down this neck
of the woods u would be amazed what nozzles u would find in them
but i suppose u hav seen it urself i tend to replace with nozzles from
current literature but when u find as i hav recently 1.25 in a firebird 90
u cant really make it worse danfoss say eh/es can b used as direct replacements
for h/s mainly riello burners b the way

JohnnieK

Tell me about it. The oil industry is in worse condition domestically compared to gas IMO. I think the worst I've come across is a distorted oil tank because the flue of a standard efficient boiler was way to close.

jimf

oftec would be very impressed with that im sure but who ever walked away
from dat installation had no pride in their work just pay me
and ring somebody else when theres a problem

JohnnieK

jimf wrote: »

oftec would be very impressed with that im sure but who ever walked away
from dat installation had no pride in their work just pay me
and ring somebody else when theres a problem

Exactly. We are loosing out to these people who are doing shoddy jobs and walking away.

Robbie.G

I am oftec reg and do a lot of work for a co council. One job I condemned was a new boiler and tank fit and a boiler stove fitted as well.i found the flue off the boiler was 3 ft from the tank hitting it straight on boiler and tank very poorly fitted the stove was a joke dangerously fitted 90 degree bends and no way of cleaning the flue.when I took this up with the clerk of works I was told it would be all right what a joke most of the contractors are from across the border and I am losing out tenders to them every day of the week and they get seem to get away with that type of work

JohnnieK

I know Robbie, It's all a pile of Cack. And people always come back saying that crowd are doing it way cheaper.

Robbie.G

JohnnieK wrote: »

I know Robbie, It's all a pile of Cack. And people always come back saying that crowd are doing it way cheaper.

Thanks johnnie it's very annoying this week I lost a 4000 job by €75 and a job worth €7000 by €125 both jobs by the same out of state contractor and worst of all these are gov work So much for supporting your local economy
Sorry for the rant to just bugs the bollocks of me

jimf

robbie g most likely clerk of works didnt hav a clue what ur wer on
about if has worked ok up to now sur wont it b fine lets leave wel enough alone
rant away we all know where ur comin from its all bout money now not how its going to be done

Billy Bunting

Oftec and some of the boiler manufacturers were doing presentation earlier this year to county councils on the importance of using Oftec registered engineers, maybe a word with your regional inspector could help or shed light on whether or not your local council have had the presentation and if not push to get it done.

Robbie.G

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Oftec and some of the boiler manufacturers were doing presentation earlier this year to county councils on the importance of using Oftec registered engineers, maybe a word with your regional inspector could help or shed light on whether or not your local council have had the presentation and if not push to get it done.

Billy
the council that I work for already had oftec with them they tell you to carry out work to oftec standards but when you do they basically decide what oftec standards they work to today.
When I report work thats not to standard it just depends on what mood they are in
I also brought this matter up with a local TD
And they don't give a ****e
It all boils down to money

JohnnieK

Robbie.G wrote: »

Billy
the council that I work for already had oftec with them they tell you to carry out work to oftec standards but when you do they basically decide what oftec standards they work to today.
When I report work thats not to standard it just depends on what mood they are in
I also brought this matter up with a local TD
And they don't give a ****e
It all boils down to money

I wonder will it make any difference when the oil is regulated. Supposed to be next year.

Robbie.G

JohnnieK wrote: »

Robbie.G wrote: »

Billy
the council that I work for already had oftec with them they tell you to carry out work to oftec standards but when you do they basically decide what oftec standards they work to today.
When I report work thats not to standard it just depends on what mood they are in
I also brought this matter up with a local TD
And they don't give a ****e
It all boils down to money

I wonder will it make any difference when the oil is regulated. Supposed to be next year.

It didn't make much difference with
The gas

Billy Bunting

jimf wrote: »

just wondering are many oil service guys using eh/es nozzles
instead of h/s nozzles when servicing kerosene burners
just like to get the opinion of the experienced guys
who post regularly on this forum

Fine on a service but you have to remember that the EH/ES nozzle is caliberated at a higher presure and so can,t be swopped with a H/S without set-up with your FGA, I tend to stick with H and S if i can.

Robbie.G

jimf wrote: »

just wondering are many oil service guys using eh/es nozzles
instead of h/s nozzles when servicing kerosene burners
just like to get the opinion of the experienced guys
who post regularly on this forum

I always use eh/es nozzles on grants they work best on lower outputs
I tend to use h nozzles on firebirds on the enviro max 26 it's recommended a solid jet.
There is some good info on here
http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/DKBGPG060A802.pdf

jimf

understand fully billy and appreciate ur input dats why i posted to
get opinions such as yours and other experienced oil guys as im
a newbie for the past 3 years only all set ups are done with fga and
i find a slight tweek on the pressure side usually + .3 to .5 bar gets
the readings im after again many thanks for all the posts u and
others hav contributed to as u would b amazed what u would
learn from others experiences

jimf

ta very much robbie good reading there indeed
more info for the old folder

shane0007

Robbie.G wrote: »

I always use eh/es nozzles on grants they work best on lower outputs
I tend to use h nozzles on firebirds on the enviro max 26 it's recommended a solid jet.
There is some good info on here
http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/DKBGPG060A802.pdf

Grants are either EH or S on non condensing and EH on condensing.
Firebirds are S on non condensing and ES on Enviromax. To overcome their flueing issues, you need to drop the nozzle size by approx 0.1USG and increase the pump pressure to compensate for the loss of output and generate better force within the combustion chamber.
Just increasing the pump pressure on its own will just increase the output of the boiler and can contribute to short cycling, especially on condensing boilers where under sizing is preferable to maintain a delta T of 20C.

jimf

ta shane c where ur coming from enviromax ar indeed
a pain n the arse depending on flue set up but i find
plume kit usually makes a big diff but firebird really dont
admit they had a problem but back again to the nozzle issue the
output is slightly lower on es/eh than h/s anyway

Billy Bunting

Do us a favour jimf, please type correctly, text type canbe rather confusing for those (me) not upto it.

shane0007

Firebird will never admit to the problem as it is a design flaw and would have to replace every boiler installed since the launch of the Enviromax! They need to put the burner/combustion chamber at the bottom and increase the size of the flue passageway at the back of the boiler.
The issue mainly happens on windy days where the external pressures becomes greater than the internal chamber and flue pressures. By increasing the pump pressure, the improves/raises the combustion exhaust speed to assist the poc's to the external. A decrease in the nozzle needs to be made to compensate for increase in output.
Keeps me busy on warranty call outs all the same!

shane0007

A plume kit is an expensive "possible" fix for the client"! It may or may not fix the issue and when it is not required to meet regs (distance to windows, etc.), then IMHO it should be supplied FOC by Firebird but never is.
Their plume dispersal kit is only 1m also which is a nonsense length. Another 1m extension must be purchased also, whereas the Grant dispersal kit is a standard 2m.

jimf

all very valid points shane warranty calls are great
and its left to you to explain to the customer why their
sometimes 6 month old boiler needs such a drastic clean out




sorry billy for text writing and will be more careful in future posts

shane0007

It is always why I have never installed an Enviromax! I only install Grants but maintain all!
It is nearly always the installer who calls me out, after he has had numerous call backs, tinkered with it until it resembles something off Discovery Channel and is down to the last 2 hairs on his head. I come along and tell him he should have fitted a Grant as he tells me to f*** o** going out the door, lol.....

jimf

most likely not commissioned first day no passport no proper
set up why do we pay s... loads of money for fga smoke pumps
etc not just to have them in van because they look good we have to
have them for a reason

shane0007

You will still find flueing issues even on commissioned burners. Best to keep the CO2 down closer to 11.0 - 11.2. As with all outdoor boilers, analyise with door on and remove door to make adjustments or analyise to approx 0.3% below required and check with door on to ensure at required level.
I tend to drop the nozzle size and increase the pressure by about 0.5 bar from the off. Saves most call backs.

jimf

surely at this stage shane firebird should know whats causing
issues with boilers and would move to rectify


thanks for your posts its good to get the feedback as my dad used
to say a month in the field is better than a year in university
others experiences and all that

shane0007

jimf wrote: »

surely at this stage shane firebird should know whats causing
issues with boilers and would move to rectify

They do, it's the design. If they put it right it will be an admission of fault. That will be very costly for them throughout Ireland and the UK. They need to bring out a completely new model and discontinue the Enviromax. That is the only way forward, but with the cost they have in the Enviromax it will be a long time before they will do that. Most of their engineers will admit this behind the scenes but not in public.

ServiceGuy

As already said above, I would always use the nozzle as stated in the manual. I have however seen adverts for cheap boiler service and "nozzle, if required, will be charged extra".

jimf

very valid point service guy nozzle should always
be changed at annual service as we know so if people
are advertising as you say IF REQUIRED just goes to
show what kind of service they are getting as the saying goes
a bargain could be the dearest thing you ever bought

DGOBS

Just reading a few points of this thread, interesting

Oil to be regulated next year? NO, it is a 3 year process to regulate an industry, AFAIK it has not begun! (would love to be proven wrong)
I have been spun this yarn for 10 years now!
There is not enough registered oil technicians to support this at this point, why not?

The SEAI originally only added 'OFTEC Registered' as a recommendation as there as about 300 members in the southern Ireland, and as
far as I can see, numbers are going down due to the lack of Oftec pushing itself with the Irish public, how many customers you ever met who knew who they were?

IMHO, we still need an Irish body for Ireland, if Oftec want to fill that void, good, but they have to start by understanding this is not the UK and oil at the minute is not regulated or requires certification. There has been moves toward one ROII (registered oil installers ireland)!

DGOBS

RE Firebird Enviromax and soot ups....

If you are going to fit a plume kit, your issue is one of recycling flue gas at the terminal (ie, flue gas in the air intake) and can be caused by terminals sited in 'courtyard type areas' or side passages where the flue gas cannot disperse freely. If you believe this to be the case, before costing your customer a plume kit, drill a small hole (I do where the flexible air intake hose meets the snorkel adapter) and use your FGA to see if your getting only fresh air into the burner, if you see any CO or CO2 then, yes, a plume kit is required.

If not, the issue is more to do with boiler design (IMHO) as I see sooting in the combustion chamber, and not at the flue terminal, this would suggest a 'combustion issue' which I believe is too high pressure in the combustion chamber due to the small rear flue passage (ie, back pressure) to overcome this, derate the boiler by reducing the nozzle size (lets say on a C26, replace the .85/80/es with a .75) then do your
nozzle output calculation (as I know you all do anyway!!) and use a small oil pressure increase to increase the nozzle throughput so the boiler output is not reduced. I find the increased oil pressure is enough to overcome the perceived (hmmm..) flue restriction issue. I have had zero call backs after this approach.

As regards oil nozzle replacement, I am on the fence, good practice would be to replace on every service (which I do as it tends to cause less issues during the the next years use). But yet, the nozzle manufacturer (Danfoss) does not hold the same view, they state that once combustion analysis and smoke tests are correct, and the nozzle shows no signs of 'coking' there is no reason to change it! (NOTE: Oftec issue industry codes of practice, not standards or regulations, that is the function of the NSAI in this country)

Nozzles, my 2 cents.......

Using Danfoss guidelines, S nozzles were really designed for use on Class D fuels, where H nozzles are for Kerosene (S can be used for Kero, but never use H on Class D) EH and ES were designed for better atomization of Kerosene and tend to be the nozzle of choice for smaller condensing appliances, as you may notice many manufacturers use these at higher oil pressures (again to overcome restriction due to the condensing heatexchangers) and essentially at these higher pressures they 'imitate' a spray pattern of H & S types (this is why you dont see them in use above 1.25usgal) with better atomization.