what farming practice?

simx

at the minute i have a small suckler enterprise,mainly sim,some black lim,aa,hr
have to buy a bull for next season was thinking charlaois as an uncle of mine breeds ch off sim cows and has nice calves,sim are too plain in my view and less profitable and when suckling is such a low profit practice to be in its a major factor

have often thought about getting rid of cows and going weanling to beef or some other enterprise,the cost of having a cow just to rear one calf seems a waste as if you look at dairy you have a cow that milks and produces a calf as a by product too
any of ye moved away from suckling and to what sort of enterprise?
do you regret it?
there are pros and cons i know as if you bred your own your less likly to go down with tb,you know what you are breeding and an work accordingly

simx

any opinions lads?

muirsin

Hi Simx Ive been hiding in the long grass and havnt posted yet but find the forum excellent.So here goes with my first tuppence worth.
I have moved away from sucklers and have started bucket feeding bought in calves.paid dearly this spring but in general am happy enough with the change over.After the first month or so its not that labour intensive and suits my work situation.Found it difficult trying to combine work andsucklers.Trying to find some one to keep an eye on calving and then maybe middle of night job and loosing some made the decision easier.I guess will have to wait a bit longer and do the sums

Kevin1150

Money may be small in suckler cows but I wouldn't class weanling to beef as a more profitable enterprise in general and definitely not with small numbers. Stick with what your interested in and try and improve imo.

jimmy G M

Hard to say too much without more info - How are you fixed facilities wise, what's your land like generally, reasonable SFP, How experrienced are you? are you working off farm or possibly like to? It appears that you want to stay in cattle farming, rather than more into some thing different like tillage or sheep?

If you have a nice set-up with sucklers - reasonably compact calving, running decent bull with say milky lim / char / sim cross cows, 1 or two batches sound fences etc, selling all calves in Oct / Nov, you will have a reasonably easily managed system which will leave you a few bob but won't make you up.

IMO it's hard to beat charolais if you are selling calves off as weanlings in the Autumn, I'd run yer own bull as easier than watching out and bringing in cows for AI. Compact calving & good fences means an easily managed bunch. Bit of creep in the late summer, culling a few cows every year to improve your herd . You won't need the best land in the country or the best winter facilities for that either,

Some of the lads on here go for a more "intensive" suckler system with AI BB & autumn calving & bulls for export etc, maybe you want to go down that route. Others here are specialised finishers - i have no real experience of that so can't say to much on that.

I'd say just pick a simple system that suits your situation and go for it. Don't go too mad on spending money on non productive assets. Just my wanderings on this.

simx

jimmy G M wrote: »

Hard to say too much without more info - How are you fixed facilities wise, what's your land like generally, reasonable SFP, How experrienced are you? are you working off farm or possibly like to? It appears that you want to stay in cattle farming, rather than more into some thing different like tillage or sheep?

If you have a nice set-up with sucklers - reasonably compact calving, running decent bull with say milky lim / char / sim cross cows, 1 or two batches sound fences etc, selling all calves in Oct / Nov, you will have a reasonably easily managed system which will leave you a few bob but won't make you up.

IMO it's hard to beat charolais if you are selling calves off as weanlings in the Autumn, I'd run yer own bull as easier than watching out and bringing in cows for AI. Compact calving & good fences means an easily managed bunch. Bit of creep in the late summer, culling a few cows every year to improve your herd . You won't need the best land in the country or the best winter facilities for that either,

Some of the lads on here go for a more "intensive" suckler system with AI BB & autumn calving & bulls for export etc, maybe you want to go down that route. Others here are specialised finishers - i have no real experience of that so can't say to much on that.

I'd say just pick a simple system that suits your situation and go for it. Don't go too mad on spending money on non productive assets. Just my wanderings on this.

sfp wouldnt be amazing,about 60 acres but would rent some if resonable,have about 25/30 sucklers at present,a ch bull should bring nice calves alright,i would work off farm if work did come up

sucklerlover

I keep simx cows and have a saler bull running with them.I fatten all the bulls at 18-20 months.Inside at the moment on ad lid ration.Eating around 13kgs each per day.ave weight 650kgs.Also have 15 bucket reared fresian bulls on ad lib ave weight 540kgs.I think the fresians will leave more money cos of the cost of keeping the cows.If your goin to keep sucklers ud want top quality.I am considering a charolais bull for next year to improve my quality if i can find an easy calving one.Is there such a thing?

cow man

simx wrote: »

sfp wouldnt be amazing,about 60 acres but would rent some if resonable,have about 25/30 sucklers at present,a ch bull should bring nice calves alright,i would work off farm if work did come up

Having 30 weanlings to sell every autumn sounds good to me
there are a lot of suckler men with less.

ellewood

simx wrote: »

at the minute i have a small suckler enterprise,mainly sim,some black lim,aa,hr
have to buy a bull for next season was thinking charlaois as an uncle of mine breeds ch off sim cows and has nice calves,sim are too plain in my view and less profitable and when suckling is such a low profit practice to be in its a major factor

have often thought about getting rid of cows and going weanling to beef or some other enterprise,the cost of having a cow just to rear one calf seems a waste as if you look at dairy you have a cow that milks and produces a calf as a by product too
any of ye moved away from suckling and to what sort of enterprise?
do you regret it?
there are pros and cons i know as if you bred your own your less likly to go down with tb,you know what you are breeding and an work accordingly

why not buy 4th or 5th calved sucklers with calf at foot in feb and mar and graze the cows till jul/aug (dont run a bull with them then you can factory them or mart whichever has best price at time) and sell, and graze the calves with some meal onto november selling then

you get to still have sucklers which you like to have but without the large wintering costs and the costs and hassle assioated with calving young calves ect as youre buying them at 6 weeks old with the cows

just a taught!

bbam

muirsin wrote: »

Hi Simx Ive been hiding in the long grass and havnt posted yet but find the forum excellent.So here goes with my first tuppence worth.
I have moved away from sucklers and have started bucket feeding bought in calves.paid dearly this spring but in general am happy enough with the change over.After the first month or so its not that labour intensive and suits my work situation.Found it difficult trying to combine work andsucklers.Trying to find some one to keep an eye on calving and then maybe middle of night job and loosing some made the decision easier.I guess will have to wait a bit longer and do the sums

We moved to this a few years ago from suckling..

We have a particular like for rearing calves which is great and again working away from the farm meant you were relying on someone else to be able to drop everything and calve a cow for you, its always easier to do something you like..
The spring gone bye calves were expensive and we bought none!. have bought some in the last few weeks and more in the next few..

We're making a profit before the SFP but it is a low margin business. That said, suckling is a low margin business too and if many looked at actual costs would make little if anything without the SFP.

I've said it before, too many farmers mistake gross profit for actual profit.

pakalasa

bbam wrote: »

...I've said it before, too many farmers mistake gross profit for actual profit.

Exactly.... I can never understand why the Farmers journal always print Gross Profit figures. It's a bit like given the score of a match for the last 20 mins..pointless.

F.D

Seen a program on the BBC "mud sweat and tractors" looking at the beef breeds over the years, but is showed a couple of scottish farmers that went from contential breeds back to a AA cross with hereford, reason was to make the job simpler, more docile easy calving,hardy calves no big meal bills,
he reckoned he was making as much out of them as the contential breeds when everything was taken into account
might be worth looking at different breads of stock before you get out of them altogether

les paul 1967

Seen a program on the BBC "mud sweat and tractors" looking at the beef breeds over the years, but is showed a couple of scottish farmers that went from contential breeds back to a AA cross with hereford, reason was to make the job simpler, more docile easy calving,hardy calves no big meal bills,
he reckoned he was making as much out of them as the contential breeds when everything was taken into account
might be worth looking at different breads of stock before you get out of them altogether


and remember you receive a premium for these breeds aswell when sending to the factory

reilig

Jasus lads, all this talk of making money from bucket feeding calves is fascinating me.

A few questions:

How many calves are ye keeping?
How much profit are you likely to make per calf - what are ye buying them at, what are ye selling them at and what is it costing to keep them?

How much work actually goes in to them? Do you not have to make up milk twice a day and bring it to them? Do you have to give them meal? Are bucket fed calves any more prone to illness?

We have an outfarm which is farmed with a separate herd number. Its 25 acres of poor enough land. We keep 10 cows on it. All are black or red limousin's. We use ai BB on them (all SFL this year). They calve from early April to the middle of may and are let out of the shed onto grass the day that they calve. This year and last year, all cows calved unassisted. The calves have been getting meal since 1 July and will continue to get meal until they are sold around November 1. Total cost being approximately €700.

We do separate accounts for this farm as its in my wife's name. Last year, the 10 cows left an actual profit of €4000. This was up from €3500 the year before. We get SFP on top of this also. There's minimal work to them. They are checked twice a day as all animals on the farm are. They go on slats in winter, into calving pens before they calve and the calves are often put into a wheelbarrow and brough out into a field as soon as they are dropped. I don't count these 10 cows as being very labour intensive. The place almost runs itself.

Would be really interested in seeing the sums for people with bucket fed calves? If you buy a bull calf at €300, how much does it cost to keep him for 6 months? If you feed him for 6 months, will he be worth €600?

I calculate that it costs me €600 per year to keep a cow (inc AI, vet, silage, fertiliser, dose, cost of replacement etc. ). Last year my 10 BB calves averaged just over €1050 each. After mart fees, transport, vet fees, testing etc, I had approx €400 per calf in my pocket. We only keep calves for 6 to 7 months. The rest of the time, the cows are inside on the slats.
I recon I have a lot less work than if I had 20 or even 10 bucket fed calves???

bbam

reilig wrote: »

Jasus lads, all this talk of making money from bucket feeding calves is fascinating me.

A few questions:

How many calves are ye keeping?
How much profit are you likely to make per calf - what are ye buying them at, what are ye selling them at and what is it costing to keep them?

How much work actually goes in to them? Do you not have to make up milk twice a day and bring it to them? Do you have to give them meal? Are bucket fed calves any more prone to illness?

We have an outfarm which is farmed with a separate herd number. Its 25 acres of poor enough land. We keep 10 cows on it. All are black or red limousin's. We use ai BB on them (all SFL this year). They calve from early April to the middle of may and are let out of the shed onto grass the day that they calve. This year and last year, all cows calved unassisted. The calves have been getting meal since 1 July and will continue to get meal until they are sold around November 1. Total cost being approximately €700.

We do separate accounts for this farm as its in my wife's name. Last year, the 10 cows left an actual profit of €4000. This was up from €3500 the year before. We get SFP on top of this also. There's minimal work to them. They are checked twice a day as all animals on the farm are. They go on slats in winter, into calving pens before they calve and the calves are often put into a wheelbarrow and brough out into a field as soon as they are dropped. I don't count these 10 cows as being very labour intensive. The place almost runs itself.

Would be really interested in seeing the sums for people with bucket fed calves? If you buy a bull calf at €300, how much does it cost to keep him for 6 months? If you feed him for 6 months, will he be worth €600?

I calculate that it costs me €600 per year to keep a cow (inc AI, vet, silage, fertiliser, dose, cost of replacement etc. ). Last year my 10 BB calves averaged just over €1050 each. After mart fees, transport, vet fees, testing etc, I had approx €400 per calf in my pocket. We only keep calves for 6 to 7 months. The rest of the time, the cows are inside on the slats.
I recon I have a lot less work than if I had 20 or even 10 bucket fed calves???

When we had suckers we were averaging €250/300 profit for weanlings and were limited to 10/12 cows. Sucks have been leaving €200/250 and are working up to 30 a year. That topped with enjoying it more, working on heavy marginal land made it a no brainer for us.
Having cows calving down and nobody round to keepan eye on them during the day is risky and it's easy to loose a cow.

reilig

bbam wrote: »

When we had suckers we were averaging €250/300 profit for weanlings and were limited to 10/12 cows. Sucks have been leaving €200/250 and are working up to 30 a year. That topped with enjoying it more, working on heavy marginal land made it a no brainer for us.
Having cows calving down and nobody round to keepan eye on them during the day is risky and it's easy to loose a cow.

€200 - €250 profit is a good margin for sucks.
Do you mind me asking you to break that down a bit?
What types of calves would you be buying?
How much on average would you be selling them at? What weights would they be?
How much would it cost to keep one? How much € maverick and meal would they take?


In the marts for the last few weeks, a lot of guys have been bringing out January and February sucks for sale. Many of them are bringing them home because they are being offered less than they paid for them :eek:

jay gatsby

I can't see how calves bought in the Spring could be sold before this Winter and leave a margin considering how prices have gone.

Not knocking anyone's system but any we've ever had would need the Winter and following Spring to catch up on suckler calves. Can ye get the weight gain up enough to sell again with the calf less than a year old?

bbam

Here's a summary rather than loads of detail( I supposed to be working)

- sucks in the spring gone by we're too dear and I bought none.
- never paid over €280 for 4-6 week old suck and don't take in anything younger.
- never feed maverick, it's a con.
- no calf gets 25kg milk replacer.
- rarely money if they are sold before 12 months although I've sold down to 9 months and made 200 a head on a pen of SAx bulls.
- stop comparing them to suckler calves, their a different animal.

Briefly:
HEX heifers bought at 250/280, 300 rears them to 14/15 months and we've been getting €750/800 for them.

I'm not sure about feeding enough meal to have them for sale under a year. Personally I think it may be too expensive but then maybe the top 20% could be chosen and pushed on, but then they looked pushed and this isn't often a good look at mart either.

jay gatsby

I know you're saying not to compare them to suckler calves Bbam and I know where you're coming from. However if anyone is selling them at this time of year then they are going to be penned beside 350kg+ suckler calves. I'd imagine that can't be helpful when trying to get a good price?

Saying all that I've learned a lot from yourself and others like Lakill on here bucket rearing calves so I don't doubt that ye are making it work.

reilig

Thanks for the info. Its interesting.

I suppose the thing that strikes me is that you are keeping animals for 12 to 15 months to realise a profit of €200 - €250. Does the €300 to rear them include the cost of silage + your annual herd test with them on the farm?
How much is milk replacer these days? Would you not have them on a bit of meal after 6 to 8 weeks to try to get them off milk earlier?

bbam wrote: »

Here's a summary rather than loads of detail( I supposed to be working)

- sucks in the spring gone by we're too dear and I bought none.
- never paid over €280 for 4-6 week old suck and don't take in anything younger.
- never feed maverick, it's a con.
- no calf gets 25kg milk replacer.
- rarely money if they are sold before 12 months although I've sold down to 9 months and made 200 a head on a pen of SAx bulls.
- stop comparing them to suckler calves, their a different animal.

Briefly:
HEX heifers bought at 250/280, 300 rears them to 14/15 months and we've been getting €750/800 for them.

I'm not sure about feeding enough meal to have them for sale under a year. Personally I think it may be too expensive but then maybe the top 20% could be chosen and pushed on, but then they looked pushed and this isn't often a good look at mart either.

bbam

reilig wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Its interesting.

I suppose the thing that strikes me is that you are keeping animals for 12 to 15 months to realise a profit of €200 - €250. Does the €300 to rear them include the cost of silage + your annual herd test with them on the farm?
How much is milk replacer these days? Would you not have them on a bit of meal after 6 to 8 weeks to try to get them off milk earlier?

Yes test and silage at €16 a bale included. As is esb, insurance, fert, fencing and anything I can think of.
I don't have the milk numbers here but anyone buying milk needs to be workking out the cost per feed rather than per bag.
For example when worked out per feed super cream is about 60% the cost of maverick. That's about €15 a calf saving.

Calves have crunch at their nose from day they arrive.

We would love to move them earlier but it's hard as they need a little more time to size up. We're trying things a little different with a current batch to see if we can bulk them quicker.

cam1452

id rear calves every year, but this year i bought 50 fr autaum calves off milk in jan for €318 a piece. keep them on meal til the middle of march, keep them on 20 acres in paddocks, and at the minute there costing €415 tats incl fert meal fencing and hay, there yearlings now next month and il b finishing the best 30 after xmas, the rest il sell in oct/nov,

Tommyj1

bbam wrote: »

Briefly:
HEX heifers bought at 250/280, 300 rears them to 14/15 months.

Hi bbam
You say the HEX heifers that you bought would be reared at 14/15 on €300. Does this include the purchase cost? If it does would this figure not be low? Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Tipp Man

Tommyj1 wrote: »

Hi bbam
You say the HEX heifers that you bought would be reared at 14/15 on €300. Does this include the purchase cost? If it does would this figure not be low? Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

I'd say he means 250-280 to buy the calf

Then 300 in costs to bring them to 15 months

so 550 in total