NS & prize money

Navvyy

I was giving out about a particularly mean NS prize fund to a non triathlete. Instead of agreement their view was "what? There was prize money for amateur sport? There should be none" The example they gave for amateur golf (ok golfs not really a sport but;)) was that prizes were limited to under a 100quid and usually were vouchers for the local golf shop.

Now I disagree strongly with this but it got me thinking. Prize money in NS races ranges from the very generous  (eg races run by Limerick tri club have money, really nice trophies - and great goodie bags) to the not so generous (not going to name - lets get an impersonal debate going).

The first question I'm throwing out is why should there be prize money in NS races? No one is forcing any of us to indulge in an expensive and time consuming hobby. Only a handful of competitors out of the 1000s  who race NS are affected by the prize money issue. As against this I'd argue why shouldn't someone who podiums or wins their age group get back their entry fee plus petrol (at the very very least). They have put in the training hours: some are semi pro and put in savage hours plus have full time jobs. The equipment is expensive. The entry fees are damn high (in how many other sports are entry fees of 60quid plus completely unremarkable).  Monetary support for those that do well is not to much to ask. Excellence should be rewarded. It can inspire the rest of us.

I suppose a useful thought experiment would be to imagine triathlon in Ireland without prize money. Would this discourage people who have real talent from racing/developing their talent? Would it affect age group competition? Would standards be lower in the long term? Would it discourage the development/continuance in the sport of Irish pros/high end age groupers? 

The second question would be then (presuming in principle people agree with prize money) is at what level should prize money being set?  Some of the money pools generated by entry fees are significant even when the costs of running the event are taken out. Should prize funds set at x% of entry fees be a condition of being awarded by TI a NS race?

The third question is what can be done to reward/encourage the clubs that have generous prize funds and penalize those that are parsimonious? I can vote with my feet but truthfully no one is going to notice or care if I'm there or not! For the majority of competitors prize money is not really a consideration when deciding to enter a race. Is this an issue that TI are going to have to take the lead on? There is talk that there will be guidelines for next year.

Last question - should it be left to TI? Or is it time for the clubs to come together and constitute a forum/lobby for all issues affecting their membership from prize money to safety to encouraging newbies etc?

couerdelion

Navvyy wrote: »

I was giving out about a particularly mean NS prize fund to a non triathlete. Instead of agreement their view was "what? There was prize money for amateur sport? There should be none" The example they gave for amateur golf (ok golfs not really a sport but;)) was that prizes were limited to under a 100quid and usually were vouchers for the local golf shop.

Now I disagree strongly with this but it got me thinking. Prize money in NS races ranges from the very generous (eg races run by Limerick tri club have money, really nice trophies - and great goodie bags) to the not so generous (not going to name - lets get an impersonal debate going).

The first question I'm throwing out is why should there be prize money in NS races? No one is forcing any of us to indulge in an expensive and time consuming hobby. Only a handful of competitors out of the 1000s who race NS are affected by the prize money issue. As against this I'd argue why shouldn't someone who podiums or wins their age group get back their entry fee plus petrol (at the very very least). They have put in the training hours: some are semi pro and put in savage hours plus have full time jobs. The equipment is expensive. The entry fees are damn high (in how many other sports are entry fees of 60quid plus completely unremarkable). Monetary support for those that do well is not to much to ask. Excellence should be rewarded. It can inspire the rest of us.

It's not only the best that are putting in the hours of training and holding down full time jobs though. Is the trophy not reward enough? How would a winner getting €200 inspire me?

I suppose a useful thought experiment would be to imagine triathlon in Ireland without prize money. Would this discourage people who have real talent from racing/developing their talent? Would it affect age group competition? Would standards be lower in the long term? Would it discourage the development/continuance in the sport of Irish pros/high end age groupers?

Does anyone in Ireland race solely for the prize money? Sure it's nice to have but in the main it's about the winning.

The second question would be then (presuming in principle people agree with prize money) is at what level should prize money being set? Some of the money pools generated by entry fees are significant even when the costs of running the event are taken out. Should prize funds set at x% of entry fees be a condition of being awarded by TI a NS race?

How do you know these races are making money. With road closures (town closures in some cases) the amount they have to pay out is pretty significant I'd imagine and would leave them with very little if any profit.

The third question is what can be done to reward/encourage the clubs that have generous prize funds and penalize those that are parsimonious? I can vote with my feet but truthfully no one is going to notice or care if I'm there or not! For the majority of competitors prize money is not really a consideration when deciding to enter a race. Is this an issue that TI are going to have to take the lead on? There is talk that there will be guidelines for next year.

Do I want to pay a higher entry fee for a race so that a few people get prize money? No. I think that the races should be clearer about the prizes on offer and who they apply to and TI already set guidelines on that. The don't stipulate that the prize has to be money though.

Last question - should it be left to TI? Or is it time for the clubs to come together and constitute a forum/lobby for all issues affecting their membership from prize money to safety to encouraging newbies etc?

TI had a post a few weeks ago on their website asking if anyone was interested in getting involved in a forum they were running. It's not the first time I've seen them. From reading that it sounds like TI are already asking members to get involved and voice their opinions.

Huff n Puff

couerdelion - you make some excellent points, but I do think there is room for improved prizes in triathlon (obviously my point of view is completely biased to my racing experiences - the right thing to do might be meeting somewhere in the middle!)

Go to any small 5km road race or open bike race in Ireland and you are likely to see prize funds that would dwarf half of Irish triathlon's premier races.

As an organiser of a triathlon race in Ireland, I am acutely aware of the costs involved in running a race and there is far more race organisers can do with regards prize money (without raising the entry price for everyone). Seeing races charge enormous entry fees and giving little in return to the competitors leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Our small race offers one of the lowest entry fees, a good race experience and more prize money than most races (overall and age groupers). We don't charge people extra entry money to fund prizes - we take it out of potential profits as giving prizes is the right thing to do in a race. It is one way of giving back to the competitors and saying thanks for supporting our race. For us and races like Kilkee it is all about the race experience not the profit.

Rewards act as a further incentive to improve. Cash prizes do help up and coming triathletes. Triathlete standards therefore rise across the country and this obviously has a knock on beneficial effect for the sport in Ireland. However, we are thinking about swapping rewards for punishments next year at our race in order to get people to htfu e.g. lose a leg if you come last, lose a foot for 2nd last, lose a toe for 3rd last. Last place in the age groups get to choose which body part to lose or they can have a medal if they would prefer!

What level prize money should be set?

National Champs
Ideally - copy Kilkee = €500, €400, 300, €200, €100 in cash for top 5 Male / Female. €50 for age group winners.
Realistically = €300, €200, €100 top 3 Male / Female. €30 for age groupers.

National Series Races
Minimum €150, €100, €75 in cash. Voucher or small cash prize for age groupers.

Triathlon Ireland shouldn't control what prizes ordinary races should be giving out. If a race wants to give no prize money and keep all the profit then so be it, thats up to them. What Triathlon Ireland can control is which races get awarded National Series status. They can set minimum cash prize requirements for any race that looks to benefit from being a NS race. If races are not happy to agree to the conditions then don't apply for National Series status.

When a race becomes part of the National Series their income increases substantially. They will likely attract far greater numbers to their race. Some races having been accepted as National Series races immediately hike up their entry fees knowing people are willing to pay for it. It is worth it for races to comply with any NS entry rules laid down by Triathlon Ireland. All that is being asked is for a little bit of that income to be returned to the competitor.

TI need to make it compulsary that the prizes on offer should be advertised on the race website before you sign up.

d4r3n

Navvyy wrote: »

The first question I'm throwing out is why should there be prize money in NS races?

If there's enough money left after they ensure the race is well run, enough aid stations, closed roads etc. I'd rather race a good course, well marshalled with closed roads without the prospect of prize money vs. one with prize money without closed roads.

Navvyy wrote: »

The second question would be then (presuming in principle people agree with prize money) is at what level should prize money being set?  Some of the money pools generated by entry fees are significant even when the costs of running the event are taken out. Should prize funds set at x% of entry fees be a condition of being awarded by TI a NS race?

It should probably be standard, assuming entrants and the cost of running the event/road closures are similar.

Navvyy wrote: »

The third question is what can be done to reward/encourage the clubs that have generous prize funds and penalize those that are parsimonious? I can vote with my feet but truthfully no one is going to notice or care if I'm there or not! For the majority of competitors prize money is not really a consideration when deciding to enter a race. Is this an issue that TI are going to have to take the lead on? There is talk that there will be guidelines for next year.

If it's a set standard, they either abide and get to be a NS race or not.

Navvyy wrote: »

Last question - should it be left to TI? Or is it time for the clubs to come together and constitute a forum/lobby for all issues affecting their membership from prize money to safety to encouraging newbies etc?

I think they should set some kind of criteria covering all aspects when selecting NS races, including road closures, prize money, etc

tunney

Huff n Puff wrote: »

couerdelion - you make some excellent points, but I do think there is room for improved prizes in triathlon (obviously my point of view is completely biased to my racing experiences - the right thing to do might be meeting somewhere in the middle!)

Go to any small 5km road race or open bike race in Ireland and you are likely to see prize funds that would dwarf half of Irish triathlon's premier races.

As an organiser of a triathlon race in Ireland, I am acutely aware of the costs involved in running a race and there is far more race organisers can do with regards prize money (without raising the entry price for everyone). Seeing races charge enormous entry fees and giving little in return to the competitors leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Our small race offers one of the lowest entry fees, a good race experience and more prize money than most races (overall and age groupers). We don't charge people extra entry money to fund prizes - we take it out of potential profits as giving prizes is the right thing to do in a race. It is one way of giving back to the competitors and saying thanks for supporting our race. For us and races like Kilkee it is all about the race experience not the profit.

Rewards act as a further incentive to improve. Cash prizes do help up and coming triathletes. Triathlete standards therefore rise across the country and this obviously has a knock on beneficial effect for the sport in Ireland. However, we are thinking about swapping rewards for punishments next year at our race in order to get people to htfu e.g. lose a leg if you come last, lose a foot for 2nd last, lose a toe for 3rd last. Last place in the age groups get to choose which body part to lose or they can have a medal if they would prefer!

What level prize money should be set?

National Champs
Ideally - copy Kilkee = €500, €400, 300, €200, €100 in cash for top 5 Male / Female. €50 for age group winners.
Realistically = €300, €200, €100 top 3 Male / Female. €30 for age groupers.

National Series Races
Minimum €150, €100, €75 in cash. Voucher or small cash prize for age groupers.

Triathlon Ireland shouldn't control what prizes ordinary races should be giving out. If a race wants to give no prize money and keep all the profit then so be it, thats up to them. What Triathlon Ireland can control is which races get awarded National Series status. They can set minimum cash prize requirements for any race that looks to benefit from being a NS race. If races are not happy to agree to the conditions then don't apply for National Series status.

When a race becomes part of the National Series their income increases substantially. They will likely attract far greater numbers to their race. Some races having been accepted as National Series races immediately hike up their entry fees knowing people are willing to pay for it. It is worth it for races to comply with any NS entry rules laid down by Triathlon Ireland. All that is being asked is for a little bit of that income to be returned to the competitor.

TI need to make it compulsary that the prizes on offer should be advertised on the race website before you sign up.

I think you are under a misunderstanding of what the NS is intended to be. It's not about the period winning the races is about motivating the back of packers. Given that why would prize money be important?

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

I think you are under a misunderstanding of what the NS is intended to be. It's not about the period winning the races is about motivating the back of packers. Given that why would prize money be important?[/QUOTE

I think they tried this in Komunism and it worked pretty well .....

Huff n Puff

Obviously that is just my own biased opinion Tunney. Everyone is entitled to their own.

I have a certain opinion how a good race should be run and that includes giving out prize money. Triathlon Ireland is looking for "a collection of the best organised and most established races". To me these races are ones that give the full package. That package does not involve taking a larger % of the profit by not giving something back to the competitors. You can give back to the competitors by giving prizes, quality goodie bags, low entry fees, great organisation etc. Each has a part to play in ensuring a "higher level of service to participants is required than for a standard race". Under those stated ideals I do think it is possible to demand a little more from races.

I think the NS is about more than motivating the back of the packers. I also think prize money has motivational factors for everyone taking part in a race anyway (direct & indirect factors).

Triathlon Ireland as you know have lately been looking for triathletes to "inform TI regarding issues of importance and priority for athletes". They recognise a need to improve the series and championship races to make it more of a priority for triathletes. They are not just looking for back of the packers; they are "hoping to engage up to 10 athletes that between them represent a variety of levels, abilities, geographic regions, age groups and motivations".

At the moment we are having a race to the bottom with many races seeing how low they can go in terms of prizes (with no reduction in entry fee). To me this diminishes those races. If Triathlon Ireland want to do something about it then let them, if not then that's fine too. I do think the Prizes guidelines in the Manual of Guidelines could be stricter, but again that's just me.

peter kern

All whats being said here are valid points pros and cons.

I think the good part of the growth in triathlon is that the sport can be more diverse.
If the nat series like Tunney says is for the back packers than their should be a super series for the faster people that is performance focused and has incentives to perform( prize money)

Super series races ( could be kilkee, dublin, kenmare and nat champ races) swims are not shortened if there are a few waves and have a decent prize money (prize money focuses on the top 5 overall ) and title sponsor of sereis responsible for a decent prisze money for top 5 of the series. Super sereis should also have a high focus on upcomming juniors with good prizes for the sub 23 athletes and juniors.

NS races are for the competitive back packers as Dave calls it and prize money choice of the organizer . ( price money focuses on age group winners )

And beginner races can then shorten or cut swims if and when required to keep the safety high for beginners. ( no prize money but more boats in the water )

Everybody can enter any race but the rules are clear if you cant swim you will be pulled out of the water if too slow in super series races, and for beginner races we dont cry if swims are shortened.

Of course this is not feasible for 2013 but for 2014 it should be workable.

For 2013 it seems that TI agrees that there is problems with low and high scoring races and double NS races at one venue.

At the end of the day a rounded triathlon society has place from beginner to pro and triathlon by now is big enough to be more diverse.

BMcCrystal

peter kern wrote: »

All whats being said here are valid points pros and cons.

its not too often i might agree with pk but valid points are there.

Theres a sticky point and its a financial one.

Theres no consistency in the prizes and its a big secret before the races. Except a few. Let me be clear I dont enter races to win money. I make sure I work hard enough during the week to pay my bills!.

In sport the best athletes get rewarded, be it with cash, trophies, vouchers etc. Thats how sport is.

I think what peter said makes sense in relation to a separate series. You would argue that a sponsor is then needed!. I don't think so because revenue from the race will more the cover it, plus change.

Triathlon is on the go a while now so most clubs have spent money on bike racks etc. So the cost of putting on a race is small. minus the chip timing.

Another point that is evident in races is who is organizing it?? if an elite or top 10 athlete is on the committee of organizing a race then i usually see fair prizes but if its a 'backpacker' as someone said then it tends to be lower. I could be wrong on that one. feel free to pull me on it.

Lets not make money the sole purpose of the series. Winning it should mean something. It should be all over the press. Whoever wins is the best, preformed the best and was the most consistent. For me, it means diddly squat and again a big secret. I did 5 races in a row for the craic and a bit of training. Bollixed on the start line for each one. It shouldnt work like that. Athlone was a perfect example. N champs with no podium or clap on the back.

Im glad TI are willing to listen. Its a step in the right direction.

bmc

couerdelion

If there was a "Super Series" would it be to the detriment of the National Series?
Also most NS races are pretty tough to get an entry for unless you are on the ball so would it not create a set of races that are even more difficult to enter?

I don't organise races so in reality have little idea as to how much profit races make. But from what I understand it's not as much as most think. If race organisors were transparent about this though then I'm sure people would be more understanding about the prize money which again should be published and be obvious at event launch.

I'm never going to be challenging for prize money so my views are probably biased.

peter kern

I would say it would enhance the Nat Series as it would be , what according to Dave it was designed to be.

In the Uk there is a super series and a nat series and it seems to work quite well and I guess the goal has to be that in the long term there is more draft legal waves in Irish races ( as they do in windsor, blenheim etc etc) and this races could like windsor and blenheim attract TV and if they attract TV they will attract Sponsors ..... and BMc would get his recognition ( I am sure Pat cash BMC could make it big on tv with that head band of his )

People always say Tri dosnt need fast people -i would think the abu dhabi thread was one of the bigger ones on boards this year and we dont often discuss who will become 15th in the nat series either, and we all want bikes like the pros .... so what I am saying is when most people say they dodnt care about the fast people, they try to look like them ,want to know what they eat etc.....
Even in the times of bred and games the main player looked strong and healthy.

I would think this could also work well for race organicers as Windsor is one of the most profitable races in Europe.


While we all like to criticize TI we also have to admit they have driven the sport massivley forward in the last 8 years and have become quite a buisiness savy organisation, and by now to talk about a super series is not an ilusion anymore.