Are you butch femme or somewhere along that continuum

Ambersky

Instead of simply arguing with one another about butch femme identification, which group is in the majority, who gets put down the most and why lesbians or gay women want to look like men, I thought it might be interesting to hear how the women on boards LGBT forum actually see themselves.
Do you identify yourself as butch or femme or somewhere along that continuum.
Is there a difference in how other women on the scene identify you and how you think you are perceived in mainstream society.

So to start off I would say that I mainly identify myself as a Lesbian but in lesbian company I would identify as a Dyke which I think of as being a somewhat more out there way of saying I am Lesbian. Dyke to my mind has a bit more "strut" to it but it is mainly lesbians who understand and appreciate that. If I am coming out to someone I would usually say I am gay because I think they will probably be more familiar with the term and after that we can work up to the word lesbian. :rolleyes:
On the whole butch femme issue I dont usually think about that too much but if pushed I guess I would say I am a butchy femme. In that in my general way of being I think I am and am perceived to be femme but I do have a soft butch bit of a look along with some of that strut at times.
In my youth I tried to pull off a butch look but I dont think I was particularly successful. I wore mens shirts made of a lovely cream woven material and little thin leather ties, not all the time but sometimes.
I didnt like womens clothing and generally still dont but there is more available now that kind of fits somewhere between flamboyant frilly female and relaxed male with a bit of style. I still feel like I am in drag wearing a skirt and hate the feeling. I think I feel the same as a straight man would usually feel in a skirt unless of course he is a transvestite. I have tried pretending to be a transvestite but didnt like the kind of femme clothing I was wearing and didnt think it suited me, work colleagues were dressing me for a charity fashion show. ( a girl dressing as a girl, feeling like a guy dressing like a girl, transvestite, if you get me) They thought I was a good sport cos I am out to them and they always wanted to see me in a skirt.
When I was in my early teens and had never even seen a lesbian even on television or any magazine I wanted to wear flat shoes, jeans, pants, jumpers, simple blouses and jackets. I really didnt understand my peers with their make up, dresses and high heels. The first time I walked into a lesbian bar I thought, these are my people. I wasnt copying them. I hadnt even seen them yet.

I am not however trying to be or look like a man. I am happy being a woman and feel I am exploring a way to be a woman and a way to be feminine that is challenging to traditional gender stereotypes but I am not betraying or distancing myself from my gender.

Shoe shops are a particular problem. They are divided up into a mens section on one side and I am immediately attracted to them, not all of them just some of them. On the other side are the womens shoes and because I take a size five and cant buy "mens" shoes as they start at size seven, I have to search through heels and straps and shoes I would never wear and feel in no way attracted to to finally find a comfortable but stylish pair of shoes. I wish there was a mens, womens and dykes section in shoe shops, the selection is limited.

Butch and femme is not all about looks or fashion of course but it is usually the first thing people comment on, particularly outsiders.
Maybe it is a good enough place to start this discussion anyway.

FairytaleGirl

Oh Me Oh My wer are sooo different!
I had a read at the other thread, and actually had a goss with my OH about it today.

Personally - I am a Lesbian. I dress in heels and dresses and skirts and have longish hair and wear make up. In my mind these are not related.

My style as a 24 year old woman is just that - my style, my fashion sense. Its got nothing to do with my sexuality.
My OH wears clothes from topman and boys boxers because she likes the style and she feels they are more comfortable to wear. She doesnt actively try to be 'dykey' or whatever - its just what she likes.

I dont understand women who go wayyy out of their way to dress butch/dyke so to be identified as gay. I dont understand it - As a gay woman who doesnt want to be defined by my sexuality and hopes for a day where we have a society where everyone id included I dont get why some gay/les people try so hard to stand out and be different and then cry about not being accepted. I am DAMN proud of being gay, but I dont think I have to dress like a man to let people know it either.

Me and the Missus:

LegacyUser

Normally i make a fair attempt to look womanly but i normally fail at it quite badly.I'd love to wear some butch shirts and cut my hair quite short but i'm only out as bi to 3 people so i'd be too afraid to let people know by how i dress that i like women.(Heck i'm not even confident enough to be out on boards!)

I'd say i dress very similiar to this picture of ellen before she came out so my clothes don't really give me away.

http://www.insidesocal.com/outinhollywood/_1333752_degeneres.jpg

I'm quite androgenous from the neck up though as i don't really look after my hair and hide my face behind glasses.Needless to say i always feel extremely insecure as i have the same interests as guys,a male circle of friends,androgenous voice,wear man-like shoes and never feel welcome amongst the straight pretty girls.

Ps. FairytaleGirl,you and your OH look amazing.

Glitter

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

My OH wears clothes from topman and boys boxers because she likes the style and she feels they are more comfortable to wear. She doesnt actively try to be 'dykey' or whatever - its just what she likes.

I dont understand women who go wayyy out of their way to dress butch/dyke so to be identified as gay. I dont understand it - As a gay woman who doesnt want to be defined by my sexuality and hopes for a day where we have a society where everyone id included I dont get why some gay/les people try so hard to stand out and be different and then cry about not being accepted. I am DAMN proud of being gay, but I dont think I have to dress like a man to let people know it either.

Personally I think your two statements here totally contrdict each other! Any butches I know (and I know a few :cool:) dress the way they dress for the exact same reason as your OH dresses the way she does - that's how they feel comfortable.

This might not apply to really young lesbians I guess - this thread and the other one are really starting to make me feel like a right oul wan! (I'm only 31!)

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

Me and the Missus:

Total ROIDES! Ye look gorgeous together.

As for me - I identify as Queer Femme. I'm ostensibly a lesbian but I've dabbled too much all over the gender spectrum partner-wise to really feel comfortable with 'lesbian'.

Visually you'd never mistake me for anything but girly. I never wear trousers, always a dress or a skirt. Often in heels. Don't go out without at least a smidge of make up on, have long hair etc.
I do have a couple of rockin' tats though.

My fiancee is definitely a Soft Butch which makes me giggle in that I always thought I'd end up with a much more overtly butchy butch. Funny how life goes.

FairytaleGirl

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I dont understand women who go wayyy out of their way to dress butch/dyke so to be identified as gay

I agree Glitter where you're coming from, and I know alot of women do feel more comfortable in baggy clothes etc but there are some who do it purposely to be identified as gay.

Probably should've been more clear!!

And thanks for the compliments

Ambersky

I think it is great to be getting replies to this. It shows how we are all different and even if we do sometimes look the same it may be for very different reasons.
On that issue fairytaleGirl Im not sure what you mean either, sorry.
Are you saying that it is ok for someone to dress in boxers loose tops flat shoes etc so long as its for comfort but if they are doing it to also let other women know they might be attracted to women....its not ok, or less ok.
Or is it if they dress the way they feel comfortable and it also happens to express for them their politics as lesbians/ dykes/ gay women/ queers/ butch women.... its less ok. Im genuinely confused.
We were talking originally about people seeing lesbians as butch and femme when looking at them from the outside. I think it is very brave of you to post your photos you look like a very happy couple.
What would you say to someone who viewed you, just on appearance, as a butch femme couple. How do you think of yourselves individually or as a couple in that regard? Would you completely reject or accept the idea.

FairytaleGirl

I would say people outside the 'Scene' would think that alright, they dont know the ins and outs of Lez fashion/identity, soft butch/femme/boyish/dyke/butch/ etc.
I personally wouldnt be offended by it, no. My OH said she dresses the way she does for pure comfort and it compliments her body shape - not because she's gay.

I know, esp for a Lesbian I can be judgemental, but I dont understand Lesbians who deliberately dress like men to make a point. Social or otherwise.

Whereas obviously, like you said, if its a genuine personal choice or preferance, thats different, I just guess I cant identify with 'manly' lesbians/understand people who let their sexuality define their outward image. (This goes for gay guys who wear a full face of make up and prance down the street aswell) **

No offense intended to anyone here, Im just genuinely baffled by it.

** I know some fellas are naturally feminine or 'camp' but I know of a fair few who camp it up on purpose aswell.

Ambersky

I think as we listen to people talk about themselves from their own point of view things get easier to understand.
Sometimes there isn't even any need to understand we can just accept things are different for other people and who knows we may eventually learn to even appreciate those differences.
A lot of people, even some of the people on these boards are not use to the subtleties and ways women express themselves on the womens gay, or lesbian scene. Hell we might not be use to hearing each other explain how we see ourselves. We just look at one another and make judgements sometimes and what we think is going on may not be it for the people concerned.
People say this is butch or that is femme and Im not sure we know what each other are talking about.
I think it would be interesting if posters could just explain why they dress as they do, how they feel about it and what it means to them be it butch femme or neither.
Here are some lovely pictures of some lovely girls.....in honor of recent events.
I got them under butch femme in Google Images and that is the way they were categorized rightly or wrongly.









Had to include

LegacyUser

I've been reading with interest and find I'm questioning how I see myself and why in so much detail that I've attempted to articulate where I believe I fall on the spectrum.

My initial response comes from a desire to want to distance myself from gender stereotypes but on further consideration I realise I do possess inherent qualities that are evident in my outward appearance that probably place me in the soft butch-ish category in the classification of lesbian identities.

I don't think I woke up one day and made a conscious decision to butch up but I know I'm not and never found myself aligned with being outwardly perceived as feminine. The operative word here is perceived as I believe my identity sits comfortably somewhere between the two and that my feminine qualities are only heightened by the more subtle characterisation of them.

By soft butch I refer to my sense of dress and demeanour. I was an 80/90's kid and naturally inspired by iconic imagery of late punk and early romantics. There were a lot of inspirational women around then too, take Suzi Quattro a dash of Blondie add some 80's Adam and the Ants retro military fit garb and you kinda end up with the essence of a Gwen Steffani/Tank Girl of the 90's, a hottie with attitude who was around long before Pink and her sisters came to town.

Aside from what I think I look good in, there are other elements of my personality which contribute to my outward appearance/perception. I was almost always involved in outdoor activities, sporting or otherwise and have always tended toward comfort wear and keep my hair short, so you will mostly find me in jeans and trainers. My idea of dressing up is sporting combats with a nice top. I feel it's imperative to categorically state at this stage that I do not possess any blue, green or pink check shirts.

I made a joke there.

I have also always been quiet and more introverted than most of my other female friends, this almost instantly places me in a specific category too. I didn't dress for attention, or at least not male attention and my female friends always felt comfortable with me as I was. I believe that not being considered competition by the rest of womankind has always helped make them feel more at ease around me.

So, there it is. I myself am not attracted to butch/soft butch/androgynous types. I like women who are strong yet soft and definitely more feminine and reasonable than I. In effect I'm attracted to women who's feminine attributes inspire me and subsequently bring out the best in me.

(I should probably also state that by butch I'm not inferring a control/power/dom/top situation, in fact I'm more usually the passive one in a relationship, with exceptions in one or two areas...mostly the kitchen)

baby and crumble

I'm actually very interested in this topic, because for ages I was trying to figure out where I stood on the spectrum of butch/femme... If we're going for labels, I label myself along the lines of "dapper dyke"- I have a specific kind of butch clothing I like to wear. For ages when I was younger I would wear baggy everything, combats, tees, hoodies... I slightly wanted to hide because I didn't know I could wear the kind of clothes I like- tailored shirts, collar stays, wingtips, etc. Plus I was young- a 20-something looks a bit silly in those clothes sometimes.

But for me, butch/ soft-butch etc encompasses an attitude as much as clothes. Maybe it also echoes the kinds of manners and etiquette I was taught as I grew up, but I'll always hold a door open, I'll always makes sure to be polite and mannerly to a lady (well I'm polite to everyone, but you know what I mean!!)... There's more to being butch than wearing ties, the history of butch goes back to the 30's and beyond- when there were strict rules about how ladies were to be treated. The idea that butch women now should be 'like (stereotypical) men'- aggressive, obnoxious, etc., is just the antithesis of what 'butch' traditionally meant. I wear masculine clothes, but I love being a woman, and having womanly assets - I wear clothes like shirts and ties to accentuate that, but also to accentuate the masculine side of me too. But if anyone was to look at my partner and myself, we look like a stereotypical butch/femme couple- but in reality we are not at all. I also just prefer mens clothing to look at- I love the ephemera associated with dressing dapper and well; tie bars, collar pins, collar stays, waistcoats, pocket squares, wingtips... I just love it, so why wouldn't I want to wear it?

Part of learning how to dress myself was coming to terms with being overweight- which for lots of people feeds into the butch aesthetic- for people not really understanding the whole thing. The butch fat lesbian is a stereotype and a joke in and all on its own!

I have found so many others like me who identify as dapper, or whatever their preferred term is- I don't feel so weird about it anymore.

Glitter

baby and crumble wrote: »

There's more to being butch than wearing ties, the history of butch goes back to the 30's and beyond- when there were strict rules about how ladies were to be treated. The idea that butch women now should be 'like (stereotypical) men'- aggressive, obnoxious, etc., is just the antithesis of what 'butch' traditionally meant.

Hear, hear!

My understanding of butch is definitely a chivalrous one.

I love to have doors opened for me, my heavy bags carried, etc etc.

That's not to say I can't do those things for myself, of course I can, I just like someone to understand what is is to treat a femme like a lady. Good manners never go out of style.

bodice ripper

I am far more butch than I would like, but I am a dumpy brunette with tattoos. I can't do anything about being a dumpy brunette, and I won't forgo tattoos to be more feminine.

Everyone assumes I am a lesbian all of the time.

Moon Indigo

I honestly don't know were I stand! Just know I never were dresses only shirts/t-shirts and jeans. I am nearly 30 and still don't think I have found my style. I hate shopping 90% of the time. Its really rare I find something that settles on that line between being really butch so to say and a touch of fem. I do sway toward the butch side though if I really want to be comfortable or relaxed. unfortunately that is hard to do when it comes to occasions or going out. I have a 21st coming up now that is pressure! :eek:

Interesting though about the manners thing I just took that as a given. I always open doors for my gf or carry bags. Good manners really don't cost anything and its nice to make the lady feel special

OldNotWIse

I'm completely femme (but not in a flappy, squealy, silly girl way). My girlfriend is "boyish" in that she wears casual clothes and doesn't bother with makeup/high heels etc (though with her skin she doesnt need any makeup lucky b1tch lol) Afaik she has never had probs on the scene. I've been accused of being a straight tourist etc and the usual, "I cant believe you're gay" :mad:

Vojera

This kind of reminds me of a post I saw on deviantart a while ago that listed lesbian labels. If I was to go with that list, I guess I'd be blue jeans femme. I wear jeans every single day, sometimes with a plain mens t-shirt, sometimes with a pretty top. If I'm going out I might wear a dress, but I'd probably go with jeans/trousers and a top. Meh. I think I'm femmy, but then again I don't give a crap about stereotypical "girly" things like shoes or make-up or hair. Maybe I could be low-maintenance femme? :P I always hold the door for my girlfriend, though, but I don't think that counts as butchy because I hold doors for everyone...

I don't know, I don't think it does anyone any good to assign labels to themselves, though. People are who they are. So long as they're comfortable they can wear and be whoever they want.

LegacyUser

I often find myself having this conversation with myself! I dont really like to get all dressed up with the shoes, skirts, tops, hair etc but i do like to dress well, i find i like to wear jeans and a top, maybe a vest top or something of that ilk. I'm not trying to look fem or butch, just myself!

But my issue is that this not set off any gaydars, or at least people never believe my gayness!
Really my issue is how to dress as myself but to also give off the gay vibes!

carly_86

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

Oh Me Oh My wer are sooo different!
I had a read at the other thread, and actually had a goss with my OH about it today.

Personally - I am a Lesbian. I dress in heels and dresses and skirts and have longish hair and wear make up. In my mind these are not related.

My style as a 24 year old woman is just that - my style, my fashion sense. Its got nothing to do with my sexuality.
My OH wears clothes from topman and boys boxers because she likes the style and she feels they are more comfortable to wear. She doesnt actively try to be 'dykey' or whatever - its just what she likes.

I dont understand women who go wayyy out of their way to dress butch/dyke so to be identified as gay. I dont understand it - As a gay woman who doesnt want to be defined by my sexuality and hopes for a day where we have a society where everyone id included I dont get why some gay/les people try so hard to stand out and be different and then cry about not being accepted. I am DAMN proud of being gay, but I dont think I have to dress like a man to let people know it either.

Me and the Missus:

Your misses is hot

Ellie_Sm

I often find myself having this conversation with myself! As you can imagine the conversation does not go far!

Personally, i am not into the dressing up to the nines! I own one pair of comfortable heels which i had to wear to a wedding and a few dresses that i wear occasionally but mostly i'm a jeans and a tshirt/tank top kinda girl. i wear a little make up and my hair is just hair!
I just dress in what i feel comfortable in, i dress for myself.

My main issue is that i don't EVER get recognised as gay, and so i feel that maybe i have to butch it up to let the ladies know that i am as gay as they are!
So my issue is how to dress as myself and be seen as gay at the same time!

singlewing

Ellie_Sm wrote: »

My main issue is that i don't EVER get recognised as gay, and so i feel that maybe i have to butch it up to let the ladies know that i am as gay as they are!
So my issue is how to dress as myself and be seen as gay at the same time!

Ohh I can relate to this so much! I know its an ages late reply but this topic interested me

I'm 21, blonde and busty and i dont dress remotely butchy. If I was flat chested or something I would be able to pull it off but that look doesnt work for me. I look like your stereotypical girlfriend - of a bloke.
That's the problem!

I'm not sure what I identify as, at first around fourteen I was 100% that I am bi but now, my interest just seems to be fading with men and the women - well they're taking over in my mind :P

The problem is, with having moved so much and everything I have only one gay friend its hard to even feel a part of the gay scene, in fact I'm not really at all. I would love to be more so but I'm anxious about it because of this, making gay friends and meeting new gay people it's just hard like.

Sometimes I hate being femme.

jaffacakesyum

It's funny, if we were talking about straight women only I wouldn't call myself femme because most straight girls are a lot more "girly" than me. But in the gay world (:P) I guess I would be described as femme in comparison to other women.

I don't wear heavy makeup, in fact most of the time I'd only wear makeup on a night out. Equally, I usually only wear dresses if I'm out clubbing but occassionally I will wear dresses/skirts casually but most of the time I'm in a nice pair of jeans, a top, cardigan/hoody - nothing too fancy. I'm not hugely into jewellary and I have a lot of interests that would be considered 'butch' - sports (so I wear jerseys), action films, boxing/martial arts etc.

That said, everyone assumes I'm straight so I must be femme. I could never dress more 'butch' as it's just not me but sometimes I wish I could, or have some way of secretely telling people I'm gay/bi :P

This new(ish) trend of shaving half your head but keeping your hair long - I see that in a lot of otherwise feminine looking women. Do you think it's a way of identifying as gay/bi? My friend once said it's a "bisexual haircut" - the long hair symbolising being straight, the shaved bit being gay :pac: It's a good idea but it's a shame I think it looks awful. A lot of women I picture without it and think "damn, I'd actually be attracted to them if it wasn't for the hair" :pac:

Ellie_Sm

It's weird though i wouldn't describe myself as 'femme' or butch' a happy inbetween i suppose!!

I was out a whhhile ago and dressed as i usually am and some guy kinda jokingly identified me as gay, i was so thrilled!! He was taken aback and said he was only joking, but still, progress!!!

I agree with singlewing, i find it very difficult to merge into the gay scene, going out, it's hard cause there's usually drinking involved and being out with straight friends makes it difficult!!
I live in Cork now so maybe i'll be able to take baby steps!