really need help (red setter) training and manners

siobhankate

Hi everyone

I have an 8 month old irish red setter who's full of energy and excitement.
he get very excited around people, jumping up on them and licking them. This licking then proceeds to biting.

He has knocked the children over when he jumps up on them so its getting to be a bit of a problem. He's growing so fast and getting so strong that I'm afraid he'll seriously hurt someone soon.

he gets plenty of exercise but for some reason when i put him on the lead and we head out the gate for a walk it is him talking me not the other way. he is so strong i sometimes have to turn back

i have tired so hard to get someone in to train him but i can not get anyone in my area.... he does nothing that he is told the only thing is he will sit wen i tell him on the lead.

can someone please help i dont mind paying to get some traing on him

borderlinemeath

I have two Irish setters and I know exactly where you're coming from!

First things first, they are easy to train. Don't believe anybody when they say that Irish setters are daft or flighty or hyper. They are exuberant and excitable but they are far from stupid. They do however behave like a puppy for a good few years, they don't settle for a while. My first one settled a bit when she was about 4, my second is only two, and while he is a milder dog - he goes crazy when he knows he's going for a walk.

The jumping. The best thing you can do is turn away from the dog. Ignore the jump and don't interact. They should get the message that jumping gets no reaction. If you can get visitors to do the same it will help. Just turn your back on your dog, hands folded (not up in the air as the dog might thing you have something) and continue to do this until the dog tires of jumping. If it's a case that you have visitors coming to the house be prepared. If you know somebody is coming and they aren't going to behave like a statue, get a favourite toy (something squeaky is good for distraction) and as soon as they arrive distract them with the toy. It has to be a high value toy that they don't have access to all the time.

The licking proceeding to biting is your dog playing. When he was playing with his siblings as a puppy his mother would have taught him bite inhibition so he is mouthing rather than biting. There's two things that could work

1/ When the dog starts playing and mouthing - stop immediately and walk away. End all contact and play. If he persues with it put him in his crate if he has one or outside for a 'time out'. Repeating this every time will have him associate that he doesn't get a reaction from mouthing and will stop.

2/ If he mouths let out a yelp and withdraw the hand. This mimics what his siblings would have done if he had gone too far. He should stop playing/mouthing.

Every dog gets excited when going for a walk. What kind of lead or harness do you have him on? If it's a regular lead then he's just going to pull you down the road. Most harnesses are the same, they don't stop pulling but they lessen the strength of the pull and also don't pull on the dogs neck. A halti mouth harness may help him pull less - but something like this needs gradual introduction rather than just putting on the halti and away you go. It needs to fit properly around the muzzle so it doesn't ride up and damage the eyes. If you can get the dog used to wearing it before walks then they won't react so much to it.

Something like a gentle leader or a front harness where the dogs lead attaches onto the front of the harness so if the dog pulls he turns to the side so there's less forward motion.

If you are going to continue to use a regular collar/lead combination, take a bagfull of treats (if your dog is food motivated). Hold a treat in your hand by your side and start your walk with the dog scenting the treat in your hand. If your dog is concentrating on the treat and is walking alongside you can reward your dog every so often with a treat. Keep your hand by your side and give treats sporadically rather than all the time or at set intervals. Continually praise your dog verbally as well. Your dog will soon associate walking alongside you with receiving praise and rewards. Eventually the verbal praise should be enough to have him walking to heel.

Try some of the above and if all else fails, let us know what area you are in - there's loads of people on site that can point you in the direction of a good trainer depending on where you are.

Vince32

Everything s/he said, I would only add, when your training with the dog, treat it like a game it can win rather than a lesson to be learned, it goes much better this way, and if you find yourself getting stressed, angry or upset - TAKE A BREAK -

Vince

Uberbeamerman

Hey siobhankate,
I have two setters myself and I had the same problems as you do now. Ditto the points made previously about Setters being puppy-like but intelligent. What I use for discipline (say for instance if one of them was to jump up on me) is to GENTLY grab them by the scruff of the neck and hold them down to the ground.

It doesn't have to be rough, it shouldn't be rough, the act is about getting the dog on the ground and you showing dominance over it (telling it what is right and what is wrong) and what you say goes...

The dog is kept on the ground until it realises "oh....she's serious.....better not do that again" ie they stop struggling and resign themselves to being on the ground. This sounds inhumane but its what the mother does to her puppies and its something that I find works quite well

Regarding your issue with the setter bringing you for walks, a choke chain or halter wouldn't be a bad idea. Not ideal from an animal welfare point of view but you need to be in control and the dogs manage fine with them.

I came across this article and it goes into more of an in depth explanation than what I did so I hope it helps. http://mylissastutes.hubpages.com/hub/Being-Alpha-to-a-Dominant-Dog

fatmammycat

No offence Uberbemearman, but dominance theory is pretty much outdated tripe and in some cases down right dangerous for owners. People are not dogs and our relationships with our dogs is not alpha dog and beta or lower. Alpha theory was originally based on wolf study, but it's ridiculously flawed and misunderstood. Alpha pairs (note there is not one alpha in a group) in packs are usually alpha from birth, and almost never fight, or roll members, they have no need to do so. Beta wolves are the ones to watch out for as a pack member.

Different dogs respond in different ways to training, of course, but alpha rolling and 'slapping' a dog under the chin is liable to get an owner bitten and frighten the wits out of a nervous or aggressive dog and is pretty much useless as a training method in terms of dealing with an excited dog.
Also, a choke collar does little for a hyperactive pup except choke them. It teaches feck all, as witnessed in the park every single day by poor old dogs practically throttling themselves silly on the end of these devices.

OP you have a young excitable animal, and the only way to stop him jumping is to make the jump cause a lack of pleasure for the dog, no reward, no excitment, just totally ignore or turn your back on the dog, the moment the dog sits or stands calmly, reward that behaviour with a laid back (non excited) word of praise/pat or treat of toy regarded as high value. I've a GSD pup here, who went from jumping to sitting in days because he associates sitting with getting a rub/treat. It takes time and you need to be consistent, also get everyone on board to help, practice it with friends or relatives, use the hall door as a training ground, have people arrive, go to the door with your dog to greet them, and put sit/greet/rub into effect. Practice over and over until it's automatic for your dog to think- 'Oh look people, yay, I'd better sit!' Then you can use go further afield until you feel more confident in public. Best of luck!

Uberbeamerman

Fatmammycat thats fair enough. I offered an opinion based on my own experiences with my two setters. As I mentioned in my post the "alpha rolling" is used by the bitch to discipline her offspring, I see no reason why the technique shouldn't be applied to dogs as it is a technique that they will be familiar with, having had it done to them by the bitch. I'm not saying that the op or anyone else should go on a power trip in terms of becoming the alpha in the pack. And I'm not saying that people should rush into doing it with a dog that they have just encountered. Regarding what I said about the walking, I also mentioned the use of a halter if a choke chain was not favoured.

fatmammycat

Bitches roll pups, carry them, reposition them at will, but I think it's a mistake to think they 'alpha roll' them as a sign of dominance or discipline. It's more of a maternal behaviour.

tk123

He sounds like a typical puppy - you just need to do some obedience classes with him OP and put some time in at home - they'll teach you how to work together and are really good fun. Setters are clever so you'll get good results from giving some time and patience and building a bond with him - you don't need to bully or hurt a dog to gain it's respect.

DBB

Uberbeamerman wrote: »

It doesn't have to be rough, it shouldn't be rough, the act is about getting
the dog on the ground and you showing dominance over it (telling it what is
right and what is wrong) and what you say goes...

As already pointed out, showing dominance to a dog has been proven to be utterly pointless, and unfortunately the techniques used to dish out "dominance" over a dog invariably lead to abuse to some degree, "gentle" or otherwise.

This sounds inhumane but its what the mother does to her puppies and its something that I find works quite well

No, no she doesn't. Neither do wolves to their cubs, nor to each other as adults. This belief is an Old Wives' Tale, and utterly disproven. See below.

Regarding your issue with the setter bringing you for walks, a choke chain or halter wouldn't be a bad idea. Not ideal from an animal welfare point of view but you need to be in control and the dogs manage fine with them.

There is never, ever an excuse to compromise dog welfare in the name of training or obedience. Ever. Choke chains can cause damage, both physical and mental. There are far more gentle, pain-free, and effective pieces of gear to get control over a boisterous dog. It is never right to hurt a dog in order to teach it.

I came across this article and it goes into more of an in depth explanation than
what I did so I hope it helps. http://mylissastutes.hubpages.com/hub/Being-Alpha-to-a-Dominant-Dog

Can you provide some information regarding this blogger's credentials to give advice on dog training? Because pretty much everything she has written here is outdated, disproven, and downright harmful. Which suggests that she has not one iota of formal training in the area.

Uberbeamerman wrote: »

As I mentioned in my post the "alpha rolling" is used by the bitch to discipline her offspring, I see no reason why the technique shouldn't be applied to dogs as it is a technique that they will be familiar with, having had it done to them by the bitch. I'm not saying that the op or anyone else should go on a power trip in terms of becoming the alpha in the pack.

There is no evidence, anywhere, to show either wolves or dogs carrying out alpha rolls on either their pups/cubs, nor each other. The scientist who first recorded it has long, long since withdrawn his findings, as he was basing his observations on captive, unrelated, highly stressed wolves. He consequently got to observe natural wolf society in the wild, which made him utterly change his mind. It is a myth perpetuated by those who like to go on power trips and show how their dog "who's boss", in other words, by those who have no up-to-date knowledge about the way dogs learn, and who realise that alpha rolls and dominance theory has been long abandoned by qualified dog trainers and behaviourists, and enlightened owners.

In the dog-human relationship, there simply is no such thing as a dominance hierarchy as you seem to understand it. There is no such thing, in the dog's eyes, as either himself, nor his human, trying to become "alpha" or any other letter of the Greek alphabet, over each other. It simply does not exist. Attempts to enforce such arbitrary rules with the dog result in a dog who, at best, doesn't really know what's going on, but stays nice and quiet in the hopes nobody gets mad at him, or grabs him by the scruff, or embarks on a whole gamut of increasingly aggressive acts to establish this imaginary position as alpha leader.
And it is imaginary. Only a human could come up with a way of justifying trying to lord it over an animal which we value as a pet, companion, and family member... how on earth could we keep dogs as pets if their sole mission in life was to start a military coups against us?

The fact that unqualified, stuck-in-the-mud aficionados of dominance theory continue to spout about it has resulted, whether you like it or not, in a huge amount of abuse to dogs, bitten owners, and dead dogs. It is nothing short of scandalous that untrained people who don't bother their butts updating their knowledge (such as the person you linked to), can give out such horribly flawed, witch-doctor, hocus-pocus advice.

For the record, a pup, adult dog, cub, or adult wolf may roll themselves over as a calming signal to another dog or wolf that is peed off with it. This is an entirely different dynamic than forcibly rolling a dog or wolf over.
I'm afraid physically forcing a dog to assume a position does not make it's brain adopt the calm emotions that voluntary lying down does. No more than me pretending to laugh makes me feel happy. Trying to enforce an emotion on an animal by making it adopt a physical position associated with that emotion is just... draconian.
Whilst you may have got away with it with your benign Setters, I don't fancy your chances trying any of these moves with a fiery dog. There's a reason the likes of Cesar Milan and his ilk have scars galore the length of their arms.

If I may say, a lot of what you post, Uberbeamerman, is very old and outdated. Might I suggest you bring yourself up to date, this website is a super place to start: www.dogwelfarecampaign.org. Bear in mind that what I have said above is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of all qualified dog behaviourists, based on well-established scientific evidence.

OP, if you can afford it, getting a good, qualified behaviourist in to help you and show you how to gently get great results with your dogs with no abuse whatsoever, and no compromising the dog's welfare, will pay you back in bucketfuls and well worth the money. You will gain an understanding of your dogs and their behaviour that will really help you to see them in a whole new light! If this is a possibility for you, if you post your geographic area, we may be able to recommend someone for you.:)

SlinkyKittin

Did you try Positive Dog Training in Sandyford?

borderlinemeath

Uberbeamerman wrote: »

Fatmammycat thats fair enough. I offered an opinion based on my own experiences with my two setters. As I mentioned in my post the "alpha rolling" is used by the bitch to discipline her offspring, I see no reason why the technique shouldn't be applied to dogs as it is a technique that they will be familiar with, having had it done to them by the bitch. I'm not saying that the op or anyone else should go on a power trip in terms of becoming the alpha in the pack. And I'm not saying that people should rush into doing it with a dog that they have just encountered. Regarding what I said about the walking, I also mentioned the use of a halter if a choke chain was not favoured.

You're lucky that most setters are of a 'nervous' disposition and will be submissive fairly easily. If you tried dominance techniques with a dog that is stubborn or even a breed type (most terriers) you would be lucky to still have all your fingers at this stage.

Dominance in a human/canine interaction will usually end up with the dog storing up all their associations of being dominated and eventually let rip at the human when it reaches breaking point.

ISDW

Where do you live OP? Maybe somebody could recommend a good, reward based trainer for you in your area

siobhankate

Hi Guys

Thank you all for your advice, i am in the donegal area. i woud really love for someone to help me with our dog as he is going to be a famliy pet for a long time to come hopefully.

borderlinemeath - thank you so much for your advice but if you know anyone up this way please could you let me know.

Uberbeamerman - thank you also for your advice but dominance is not a route i would like to go down with him.

DBB

OP, unfortunately, Donegal is rather poorly served when it comes to qualified trainers and behaviourists. There are trainers up there alright, but the don't have the credentials or knowledge I'd be looking for if I needed a trainer.
I don't know which part of Donegal you're in, but it might be an option for you to have a chat with Lena from The Pet Behaviour consultancy in Fermanagh. Lena is fully trained and qualified, and is a member of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors, which is a pretty good barometer of how suitable a behaviourist is.
I'm pretty sure Lena does house calls in parts of Donegal, or there may be an option, if there's no other option, of bringing the dog to her place. Not ideal but better than nowt!
Here's a link to her site: http://www.petbehaviour-training.com/