focail tagtha díreach ón laidin

yaledo

Tá suim agam i bhfocail gaeilge a bhfuil tagtha díreach ón laidin (gan focail Béarla mar 'cognate' acu).

mar shampla:

nigh = nitidare
ealtra = altrix

An féidir l'éinne smaoineamh ar samplaí eile?

An gal gréine

Foris = Doras
Credo = Creidim
Rota = Roth
Rex = Rí

Seans go bhfuil an béarla ró-chóngarach sna samplaí seo.
Chuala mé bliantaí ó shin go dtánaig an focal 'fód'
ó 'effodere'...rud a ghearradh amach.

mr chips

Ó bharr mo chloigeann ...

Ubh - Ova
cáis - caseus
athair - pater
máthair - mater
leabhar - libro
easpag - episcopus
eaglais - ecclesia
beannacht - benedictum
dia - deus
cill - celula

... ach bheadh cuid mhór acu siúd le téarmaí coibhéiseach nó gaolmhara sa Bhéarla chomh maith, m. sh. libro->library.

dubhthach

An gal gréine wrote: »

Foris = Doras
Credo = Creidim
Rota = Roth
Rex = Rí

Seans go bhfuil an béarla ró-chóngarach sna samplaí seo.
Chuala mé bliantaí ó shin go dtánaig an focal 'fód'
ó 'effodere'...rud a ghearradh amach.

Rí, Doras and Roth are not latin loanwords, they are cognates, they share a common root in Proto-Indo European.
---
Rí: From Old Irish rí, from Proto-Indo-European *h₃rḗǵs (“ruler, king”).

Rex: From Proto-Indo-European *h₃rḗǵs (“ruler, king”). Cognates include Sanskrit राजन् (rājan, “king”) and Old Irish rí (“king”).
---
Doras: From Old Irish dorus, from Proto-Celtic *dworestu-, a form of Proto-Celtic *dwor-, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰwor- (“gate, door”). Akin to Welsh drws.

Foris: From Proto-Indo-European *dʰwer- (“door, gate”). Cognates include Sanskrit द्वार् (dvā́r), Ancient Greek θύρα (thura) and Old English duru and dor (English door). O-grade derivation of the same Proto-Indo-European root also yielded Latin forum.
---
Roth: From Old Irish roth, from Proto-Celtic *roto- (“wheel, chariot”), from Proto-Indo-European *Hroth₂-o-.

Rota: Cognate to Sanskrit रथ (ratha, “chariot”) Old High German rad (“wheel”) (German Rad (“wheel”)). Albanian rreth. Compare the Latin rotundus (“round, circular”).
---

The origin of Rí in Proto-Celtic is even more evident when you look at it's near relative in Gaulish:

Rix: From Proto-Celtic *rīxs, from Proto-Indo-European *h₃rḗǵs (“ruler, king”), which is derived from Proto-Indo-European *h₃reǵ-.

dubhthach

mr chips wrote: »

Ó bharr mo chloigeann ...

Ubh - Ova
cáis - caseus
athair - pater
máthair - mater
leabhar - libro
easpag - episcopus
eaglais - ecclesia
beannacht - benedictum
dia - deus
cill - celula

... ach bheadh cuid mhór acu siúd le téarmaí coibhéiseach nó gaolmhara sa Bhéarla chomh maith, m. sh. libro->library.

Athair, máthair and Dia all derive from Proto-Indo-European via Proto-Celtic. It's especially obvious with Athair, as one of conditions to be a Celtic language is loss of Indo-European P

From Old Irish athair, from Proto-Celtic *ɸatīr, from Proto-Indo-European *ph₂tḗr.

ɸ = null, in other words the p sound was lost, in comparison in germanic it mutated into a f, thence
Athair vs. Pater vs. Father

All three are cognates derived from Proto-IE *ph₂tḗr

yaledo

The cognate/loanword distinction is difficult (impossible?) to make from just looking at the words. It's similarly difficult to tell whether the loan is from Latin or a cognate in some other language [eg Nigh seems closer to o.fr. niter than to Latin Nitidare]

I suppose I was wondering what patterns there are amongst loan words, and what one could infer historically/culturally based on those patterns.

For example - with Eaglais, Easpaig, Beannacht - one might infer that religion in Ireland was established or dominated in gaelic Ireland by people who used latin.

So what of Ealtra[1] and Nigh ? - did Romans teach us the habit of how to care for and wash ourselves?

The ɸ explanation rings a bell [must have been in a textbook in school], but I haven't seen it explained in such detail before. Thanks.
I remember reading that
iasc <-> pisces <-> fish
shares the same relationship.

Can anyone recommend a book (or books) on this topic with reference to Irish?


[1] 'Altruism' seems to share a root with ealtra.

dubhthach

yaledo wrote: »

The cognate/loanword distinction is difficult (impossible?) to make from just looking at the words. It's similarly difficult to tell whether the loan is from Latin or a cognate in some other language [eg Nigh seems closer to o.fr. niter than to Latin Nitidare]

I suppose I was wondering what patterns there are amongst loan words, and what one could infer historically/culturally based on those patterns.

For example - with Eaglais, Easpaig, Beannacht - one might infer that religion in Ireland was established or dominated in gaelic Ireland by people who used latin.

So what of Ealtra[1] and Nigh ? - did Romans teach us the habit of how to care for and wash ourselves?

The ɸ explanation rings a bell [must have been in a textbook in school], but I haven't seen it explained in such detail before. Thanks.
I remember reading that
iasc <-> pisces <-> fish
shares the same relationship.

Can anyone recommend a book (or books) on this topic with reference to Irish?


[1] 'Altruism' seems to share a root with ealtra.

Well generally you can tell them when you look at stuff like language rules, by default each family has it's own defining language rules, a word with common origin in P-IE would thus "mutate" differently in two different families (eg. Celtic and Italic in this case). Whereas if a word is borrowed in between them later you don't tend to see defining rules.

So for example in Irish words with P such as Pádraig, póg, peaca are all loanwords as Irish as a Celtic language lost "Proto-IE" p, which is a defining rule for Proto-Celtic.

In Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and Gaulish a new P sound arose by mutation of Q -> P. This however occurs in different locations then proto-IE P. So for example
Proto-Celtic: ekwos
Irish: Each (Ech in Old Irish)
Latin: Equus
Gaulish: Epos

As a result the P in patrick was originally assumed to be just brythonic pronunciation of Qw. So you see:
Patricius -> *Qatrikias -> Cothraige -> Pátraic -> Pádraic/Pádraig

Nigh I believe isn't a loanword either:

From Old Irish nigid ‘he washes’, from Proto-Indo-European *neigʷ- ‘to wash’ (compare English nixie ‘water sprite’, Ancient Greek νίζω (nízein)).

Alot of Latin loanwords in Ireland are specifically tied to the coming of Christianity and literacy for example:

Legendum -> Léann
schola -> scoil
penna -> peann
liber -> leabhar
scribere -> scríobh
littera -> litir
sacerdos -> sagart
episcopus -> easpa
ecclesia -> eaglais
crux -> cros (interesting then borrowed into English as Cross!)
templum -> teampall
infernum -> ifreann
natalicia -> nollaig
pascha -> cásc
obla(e) -> abhlann (host -- communion bread/wine)
dominicum -> Domhnach
cell -> cill

Gumbi

Tectum means roof, I assume teach came from it.

dubhthach

Gumbi wrote: »

Tectum means roof, I assume teach came from it.

Actually they are cognates

Teach
From Old Irish tech, from Proto-Celtic *tegos, from Proto-Indo-European *tegos (“cover, roof”).

Tectum
From tegō (“I cover”), cogante with Ancient Greek τέγος (tegos, “roof; any covered room of a house”).

Tegō
From Proto-Indo-European *(s)teg- (“to cover with a roof”). Compare Ancient Greek τέγος (tegos, “roof”), Old Norse þekja (“to cover”), Old English þeccean (“thatch”), Dutch dekken, German decken (“to cover, put under roof”), Old Irish tech (“house”), Welsh tŷ (“house”).

An gal gréine

...just to add that tig and tigh are variations of 'teach' widely used.
Tuí our word for thatch probably has the same basis.