Senior Intercounty Hurling Refereeing

elguapo

There's been a lot of talk on various threads about this, so maybe it deserves it's own.

Between the two hurling semi-finals the following happened:

• Padraic Maher swiped on handed on Michael Rice, breaking his hand, nothing given.
• The same player pulled straight across TJ Reid in the second half, yellow card.
• One of the Tipp defenders (can't remember who) grabbed Richie Power's faceguard and pulled the helmet off his head...free to Tipp, somehow.
• Paudie O'Sullivan gave Tannion the handle of the hurl in the ribs.
• Connor Cooney took Nash out of it with a late challenge, which left him bleeding, and the two umpires approximately 5 yards away apparently didn't spot.

I can't understand why hurling referees are so reluctant to enforce the rules, it's already cost one player his place in an All-Ireland final, and I have absolutely no faith in Barry Kelly taking reasonable control of the final, he's shown himself in the past to be a ref who favours 'letting the game flow'.

I can't pinpoint when things started getting so out of hand, but it seems to be getting worse. Is there an overall chairperson for hurling referees, or does Pat McEnaney serve for both codes? Surely a message needs be passed down to take firmer action against reckless play?

dastardly00

Can we include linesmen and umpires in the discussion also.

Because they have a huge role to play in games as well. There are a huge number of off-the-ball incidents that refs cannot simply see, but that linesmen and umpires have a good view of. Yet, they simply take no action for the majority of incidents.

Also, Paul Curran threw his hurley at TJ Reid just before he was about to score his goal. Yellow card offence, but AFAIK he wasn't booked.

closeline

elguapo wrote: »

There's been a lot of talk on various threads about this, so maybe it deserves it's own.

Between the two hurling semi-finals the following happened:

• Padraic Maher swiped on handed on Michael Rice, breaking his hand, nothing given.
• The same player pulled straight across TJ Reid in the second half, yellow card.
• One of the Tipp defenders (can't remember who) grabbed Richie Power's faceguard and pulled the helmet off his head...free to Tipp, somehow.
• Paudie O'Sullivan gave Tannion the handle of the hurl in the ribs.
• Connor Cooney took Nash out of it with a late challenge, which left him bleeding, and the two umpires approximately 5 yards away apparently didn't spot.

I can't understand why hurling referees are so reluctant to enforce the rules, it's already cost one player his place in an All-Ireland final, and I have absolutely no faith in Barry Kelly taking reasonable control of the final, he's shown himself in the past to be a ref who favours 'letting the game flow'.

I can't pinpoint when things started getting so out of hand, but it seems to be getting worse. Is there an overall chairperson for hurling referees, or does Pat McEnaney serve for both codes? Surely a message needs be passed down to take firmer action against reckless play?

1. Thought there was nothing wrong with Maher's pull on Rice. It was a good hard pull and dont think there was any malice. Rice was just unlucky that Maher's hurler went up his hurler.

2. Maher shouldnt definetly have got a red card.

3. Think pulling of the helmet needs to be looked at. In Powers case I thought he went looking for a soft free and put the head down. Thought the referee was dead right in giving a free out. The Tipp player didnt look like he was trying to pull the helmet off him.

4. It was Pa Cronin who gave Tannion the hurley into the ribs. Was lucky not to get sent off. However, this sort of thing happens an awful lot in games. Are you going to send off everyone?

dastardly00

closeline wrote: »

3. Think pulling of the helmet needs to be looked at. In Powers case I thought he went looking for a soft free and put the head down. Thought the referee was dead right in giving a free out. The Tipp player didnt look like he was trying to pull the helmet off him.

Are you taking the p**s?

bruschi

closeline wrote: »

1. Thought there was nothing wrong with Maher's pull on Rice. It was a good hard pull and dont think there was any malice. Rice was just unlucky that Maher's hurler went up his hurler.

it was far from a good hard pull. He swung wildly with one hand and with the blade of the hurl facing forward. There was no way the ball would have moved if he had connected with it, thereby putting a lot of doubt in my mind as to whether he was really going for the ball or not. it was a far more dangerous pull than his swing at Reid.

and the helmet being pulled off Power is fairly evident in the above post

Limestone1

elguapo wrote: »

I can't understand why hurling referees are so reluctant to enforce the rules, it's already cost one player his place in an All-Ireland final,

Incorrect and overly dramatic - the smack on the hand caused him to miss the All Ireland. How the ref did or didn't deal with it afterwards has no bearing on how bad the injury turns out to be.

ANXIOUS

Don't forget the stamp on power after the helmet pull and also in the first ten seconds of the game a tipp player swung the hurl back. You have to ask yourself what did the ref write in his report for the yellow he gave the chap that smashed tj Reid???

elguapo

Limestone1 wrote: »

Incorrect and overly dramatic - the smack on the hand caused him to miss the All Ireland. How the ref did or didn't deal with it afterwards has no bearing on how bad the injury turns out to be.

That's a fair point, was getting a little carried away there.

hurling_lad

Brian Cody wrote:

I worry — for some mad reason everybody thinks this is madness — that the physicality of the game is being looked at in a negative way.

It’s just part and parcel of the game and always has been.

Apart from these unfortunate cruciate injuries or natural injuries that can happen, there is no dirt in the game at all.

But in my head I believe that they are trying to take genuine physicality out of the game.

And I wish they would stop doing that.

Still can't understand why hurling referees are so reluctant to enforce the rules?

elguapo

hurling_lad wrote: »

Still can't understand why hurling referees are so reluctant to enforce the rules?

I'm not surprised he said that, but if referees are reluctant to enforce rules because a manager thinks there's nothing wrong with the game, that's ridiculous.

elguapo

An interesting article by Donal Og:

On the Line: Donal Óg Cusack on Hurling

Tuesday, August 21, 2012


The way Kilkenny took Tipperary apart in the second half on Sunday is something that they will remember for a long time. Kilkenny haven't just beaten all their great rivals in the past few years, they've handed out thrashings to them. And still they keep going. Still they are hungry.

In the second half on Sunday, Kilkenny answered so many questions about themselves that we forgot the other question that was being asked by a lot of people at half-time. Not where are Kilkenny going, but where is hurling going?

Many hurling games are now talked about in terms of their brutal physicality. Already it has started with the All-Ireland final. If you thought Kilkenny and Tipperary was physical, wait until you see what's next. A mushroom cloud over Croke Park!

All great teams change the sport they play. They come up with a way of playing which makes the sport itself change. There is much, much more to Kilkenny than their physicality and if that part of the game gets ratcheted up every summer, it is as much because of the obsessions of other counties as it is about Kilkenny.



EVOLUTION

Still, whenever people try to start a discussion about the way hurling is evolving they run into the same arguments. You're just being anti-Kilkenny. It's a man's game. Sure it was only handbags.

Well, it is a man's game and Kilkenny are the best team to have played it. Look at Henry Shefflin's pass for Kilkenny's first goal on Sunday. It was special, a perfect expression of the skills they have brought to the game - power, precision and perfect accuracy, and all executed at break-neck speed. The overall state of the game isn't Kilkenny's responsibility. It’s the GAA's. If the game gets more and more physical it's because teams respond to the challenge set in more and more physical ways, and because the game is refereed that way. Kilkenny can only play and beat what is put in front of them.

I don't believe for a moment that the only way, or even the best way, to beat Kilkenny is to concentrate on being more physical than they are. I believe that the next development in hurling will involve a return to moving the ball quicker and into space. To even think about that at the moment, though, you need to be able to compete physically. That will happen if the GAA lets it happen. And when it does happen Kilkenny won't disappear. There is a fair probability that they will just do that better than anybody else too.

PHYSICALITY

When we look back at this time in hurling, though, we won't just remember it for Kilkenny's brilliance but for the way in which the game has changed. It's not the same game that I started out playing in the 1990s. When we talk about hurling these days we spend a huge amount of time speaking about ‘physicality’. Teams psyche themselves out of matches these days worrying about physicality. Players are judged on whether they can stand up to that physicality. And the point is that there is actually no point in having the discussion. The game is what it is until the GAA looks at it and decides that the Rule Book needs to be dusted down.

Ger Loughnane made a good point about what happened in the first minute or two in Croke Park on Sunday. He said he hadn't seen a start like it since the 1998 Munster final replay between Waterford and Clare. Ger was right. Except there is one difference. Brian Lohan and Michael White got red cards very, very early that day as soon as the off-the-ball stuff was stopped. And afterwards Colin Lynch received a three-month suspension. The match (or the start of it) was the controversy of the summer.

'IT'S A MAN'S GAME'

On Sunday, Michael Duignan described the early off-the-ball stuff as ‘unbelievable’. RTÉ said there were five rows going on at once. Cyril Farrell looked a bit shocked and at half-time he started to ask an important question.

“You have to say, where are the rule books?”

He was just getting going when he was interrupted by the line which ends all arguments these days about the state of hurling.

“It's a man's game,” said Tomás Mulcahy.

I don't know. We need to move beyond these facile arguments and look at the bigger picture. To me there's nothing manly about some of the dark arts that have been allowed to quietly creep into hurling these days. Fellas kicking each other. Fellas giving each other the butt of the hurley. Pulling at face guards. There's nothing manly about high tackles and pulling and dragging and body charges.

I love hurling. It's my life. It's changing in front of my eyes, though. There are, as Cyril Farrell said, different standards being brought to different games. If the Sligo and Fermanagh hurlers were playing in Enniskillen or somewhere on Sunday afternoon and produced the same scenes that we saw in Croke Park there'd be a lot of their lads who wouldn't be playing again until Christmas.

It isn't hard to change things back. Again, as Cyril Farrell said on Sunday, referees are making their own rules at the moment. Players need to know that every game will be played under the same set of rules. And simple things can be done that don't reduce the ‘manliness’ of the game but make it fairer.

Ger Loughnane said on Sunday that there was a danger that somebody would start analysing the opening of the game on video and start blaming people for what went on and seeing who hit who. There's no one injured, he said.

However, if players and managers knew that the video would be looked at (as with the 1998 Munster final replay or as with ‘Semplegate’. I have form, so I might as well bring it up before somebody else does!) and that they might end up missing an All-Ireland final, I doubt if the scenes would have happened at all. There are different and more manly ways of standing up to another team and proving yourself.

THE SPARE HAND

One of the main problems with hurling today is the curse of the ‘spare hand’. When I was a kid you either had both hands on the hurley or you went in looking for a ball with your spare hand held up as if you were asking a question in class or riding a horse in a rodeo. You hit with your shoulder and used your body aggressively and the rest was down to skill and speed and your wits.

Now, the spare hand is used for pinning one of your opponents’ arms down by his side, preferably the arm that has his catching hand on the end of it. The spare hand is used for pulling your opponent down on top of you to make it look as though you have been pushed from behind. The spare hand is used to interfere with his hurley. The spare hand is for getting a grip of his waistband or jersey so he doesn't move. The spare hand is for grabbing the face guard. The spare hand is for protecting yourself when you body-check somebody. The spare hand is for raising to tackle a man high at neck level when he tries to go past you. The spare hand is for stopping the player so your team-mates can swarm around him and force a turnover with their spare hands.

That's not blaming anybody. It's just stating a fact about about the way the game has gone.

When I was a kid if a player came at you with the ball it wasn't the rule that you stopped him by any means possible, using your spare hand and your ability to stop a speeding car by letting it run into you. You stayed on your toes in front of him, you moved backwards, tried to play the ball off his stick, tried to read which direction he was going to feint, you got ready in case he stopped short and went onto his back foot or flicked a handpass over your head. He played with his head up looking for the options. The rules rewarded skills. Those skills aren't dead but the rules aren't rewarding them so much anymore.

On Sunday, Lar Corbett took a lot of stick on the television for trying to mark Tommy Walsh out of the game. Wherever the idea came from I don't see what the fuss was about. It's become normal for a team to drop players back into their own half to create a sort of swarm chaos to stop the other team scoring. Once one team does it, it virtually forces the hand of the other team.

It was only a matter of time before somebody took it further and decided that a lot of the trouble they we're having to deal with was coming from wing-backs, so why not crowd the opposition out at the source instead of at the other end. Will we get to the stage where the best players are always followed by a posse sent out to stop them in the new era of physicality?

GENERATING DEBATE

But nobody really wants to have this conversation. Nobody wants lads getting into trouble. Nobody wants anybody to think that talking about the game in terms of the big picture is sour grapes or cowardice or whinging. We're all manly.



So, look at it another way: sentiment. The summer of 1998 that Ger Loughnane talked about, I was there when it ended with Offaly winning the All-Ireland. They beat Kilkenny in a great and very intense final. Michael Duignan played that day and he'd probably survive today, but would there be a place for lads like Brian Whelehan, and Johnny Pilkington and the Dooleys? That win was a victory for hooking, blocking, flicking, first touch, quick movement, wrist hurling and imagination. Hurling wasn't soft then but it rewarded different styles and different approaches.

I could be wrong but I don't think that Offaly team worried too much about weight training and tackle bags and the ‘gun show’. And if the great Johnny Pilkington had a spare hand it was for lighting his cigarette. Will we never see that Offaly style again or the Newtownshandrum running game?

Or is it manly to even wonder…?


http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/2108122046-on-the-line-donal-og-cusack-on-hurling/

Donadea Leo

Physicality is part of hurling but as is rightly pointed out the rule book needs to be adhered to.

As a Tipp person I thought last Sunday we played into Kilkenny's hands by trying to compete physically with them and played over the edge which Kilkenny are so famous for.
Playing on the edge as it is most usually referred to is a nice way of saying someone is dirty. Poor Paul Galvin must look at hurling and wonder was he simply born in the wrong county as he probably would never get a suspension or Red card if wearing the black and amber (or the blue and gold to be fair).

I don't blame the referrees totally however as in 2009 and 2010 we had 2 of the best all ireland hurling finals ever played - the refs let the game flow and ignored plenty of fouls and we all rejoiced at Hurling at its very best so evolution dictates that teams will push the boundaries more and more.

I was roughly in line with the Kilkenny half back line on Sunday and watched Tommy Walsh almost without exception foul his man on every occasion he went for the ball, at one point Tommy Dunne was walking along the sideline and asked the linesman 'did you not see that' the linesman replied that he did but took no action. Again I don't want to blame Tommy Walsh - he is an absolutely fantastic player but for years he has got away with wrapping his arms around players, pulling his man back before running for the ball and of course the odd wild swipe (and yes I know we also had a few of them on Sunday which I'm not justifying).

Hurling is a manly game, hard and fast but fair has to be the goal of referees, if someone is cynical or deliberately trying to do damage to someone they need to be punished, linesmen and umpires need to be talking to referees, maybe people could be cited like in rugby for cynical or dangerous play.

I think Sunday crossed a line in terms of on the edge hurling and we need to evolve our game to get rid of the dirty strokes.

hurling_lad

The 2009 and 2010 AI finals are often mentioned by "let the game flow" supporters. The rationale behind this seems to be that referees shouldn't blow for anything but the most blatant foul in any championship game in case it turns out to be another classic like those were. That's two games in the last 5/6 years championships since we've seen the 'on the edge' stuff come to the fore.

A nice example of how dirty play is encouraged was on the last Sunday game. Michael Duignan picked out three clips of how Kilkenny's intensity blew Tipp away. In two of the clips, Duignan himself mentioned that KK had gotten away with fouls on the man all while he was praising them for drawing frees or turnovers from Tipp. Mad stuff.

rebel girl 15

Pulling the helmet off is a yellow card

Hurling refereeing is ridiculous - rulebook goes out the window when the games are being played. McAllister would be known as someone who swallows the whistle during games. This thing of letting the game flow is crap. It may make for a better "spectacle" but because games have been left flow, teams have pushed and pushed the boundary of the rules - and it has gone to beyond acceptable. It needs a heavy handed referee to bring it back, it will be horrible viewing for a few games, but very quickly teams will cop onto themselves!

RGS

An old ref friend of mine had a simple way of dealing with the sort of messing that took place on sunday. he would just remind the players that he did not carry yellow cards and if they want to see what card he did carry they should carry on acting the mick. sorted out the crap early on.
The problem are that refs are too concerned about the assessor and getting more games and possibly the final so they wont act on foul play. The GAA are also to blame. Its amazing no action was taken by the GAA after the ref was struck in last years final.

Club games are going the same way. Last week our club game resulted in numerous frees against the ball player for overcarrying even though on every occasion the ball player was being fouled either by his hand or hurley being pulled or held and therefore he was not allowed or able to play the ball. All the ref said was he was letting the game flow. The way to allow a game to flow is to blow every foul in first few minutes, players will adapt quickly or cost their side. The game will then flow and players will start play the ball and not the man.
But no inter county ref will do it.

cornerboy

Physicality is part of the game of hurling. Over emphasis on the physical side of the game is ruining hurling because hurling is first and foremost a game of immense skill. I go to rugby matches and love the physicality of it all. I go to hurling matches for the speed and skill with an added spice of physicality. Modern hurling has its mix of elements arseways.

premierstone

Modern hurling is nowhere near as physical as it was 40-50 years ago, we just get to see alot more of it on T.V. is all.

hurling_lad

A good contribution to this debate in yesterday's papers:
Some voices sing louder in chorus of disapproval - Sunday Independendent

LeoB

dastardly00 wrote: »

Can we include linesmen and umpires in the discussion also.

Because they have a huge role to play in games as well. There are a huge number of off-the-ball incidents that refs cannot simply see, but that linesmen and umpires have a good view of. Yet, they simply take no action for the majority of incidents.

Also, Paul Curran threw his hurley at TJ Reid just before he was about to score his goal. Yellow card offence, but AFAIK he wasn't booked.

The other officials must be given more power to act on foul play. Its a joke to have 7 officials and 1 with all the powe when fierce pressure could be taken off the referee.

Good article by Donal Og. He makes good points, one valid point which I have mentioned before when he mentions Sligo and Fermanagh. I would take it even further and say certain games get different treatment. A munster clash lets say between Waterford and Cork and we hear Cyril and the lads on Sunday game justify willd pulling, body checks and sly digging more or less say"Ah lads want to put down a marker" "You'll get nothing easy out here" "no place for boys". But if a Wexford, Dublin, Laois or Limerick player had a wild pull he would be sent off and you hear the crap they need to be more discipilined if they want to hit the big time. In other words they apply the rules for some teams but I think are afraid to do it for top 4 or 5 teams because the scribes will lash them out of it. I have these double standards for years and so has DONAL oG

A big part of what goes on is the huge pressure lads are under to deliver, players and coach's. The committment to training and preparation they make are enormous and as the pressure grows on them so do the stakes and they will go over top unless checked. So just apply the rules and lads will kop on quickly. We might not go back to the lovely Hurling refereed to by Donal Og but it would help cut out the cynical side that has creapt into the games.

Hurling, arguably the most skillful game in the world is a physical game and hopefully it will stay that way but for everyone. But rules need to be applied.

hurling_lad wrote: »

Still can't understand why hurling referees are so reluctant to enforce the rules?

Clareman

elguapo wrote: »

An interesting article by Donal Og:

On the Line: Donal Óg Cusack on Hurling

Tuesday, August 21, 2012


However, if players and managers knew that the video would be looked at (as with the 1998 Munster final replay or as with ‘Semplegate’.

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/2108122046-on-the-line-donal-og-cusack-on-hurling/

Sorry, but that's just poor journalism, there was no video evidence used following the 98 Munster Final, the throw in was covered as part of the refs report, everything else was from the words of people in the crowd.

dastardly00

hurling_lad wrote: »

A good contribution to this debate in yesterday's papers:
Some voices sing louder in chorus of disapproval - Sunday Independendent

Has anybody else read this article? Dermot Crowe has quite the chip on his shoulder towards Brian Cody.

premierstone

dastardly00 wrote: »

Has anybody else read this article? Dermot Crowe has quite the chip on his shoulder towards Brian Cody.

Its probably pretty one sided alright, but alot of truths in there aswell.