Union Membership

khan86

Just wondering if anyone can advise me about joining a union (ASTI). I got offered 7 hours privately paid by the school for the coming school year, I was in the school last year subbing and filling in for a teacher who retired in February but didn't join the union because my work was irregular and frankly I didn't know enough about it being a NQT. Can anyone advise me on whether or not I can join the union if I am privately paid or is this irrelevant? Also, any advice for or against joining the union would be welcomed cos I really don't know a lot about it. On a side not, what are the downsides of being paid privately? I know I won't have pension contributions but will it affect my place on the pay scale if or when I get a department paid job/hours? I am not classed as a new entrant on the pay scale because I was on the payroll pre January 2011 but I doubt I have worked the minimum number of hours required in an academic year to move up the scale anyway. If I pick up subbing/supervision hours during the year that are paid by the department aside from the private 7 hours will I continue to pay my pension contributions from this work? Sorry for all the questions but I find the whole private/department paid thing a bit confusing.

spurious

You are in a very weak position, being paid privately, I would join the union asap.

khan86

Thank you for the reply Spurious but could you elaborate perhaps by addressing some of the questions I asked in my op so that I can understand better why I am in a weak position as you say? I would appreciate any information you can offer on this.

khan86

So, does that mean the union represents privately paid teachers as well as department paid ones? It might seem like a stupid question but I honestly don't know or I wouldn't be asking.

spurious

The union will have negotiating rights with the employer, which in your case is probably a BOM, or is your employer technically the Principal? You would have to check if your employer deals with the union.

My union experience would be in the VEC sector where we always dealt directly with the VEC who were the employer.

If you are being paid privately by the school, what rate are you getting? Is it less than the agreed common scale? What are your sickness entitlements? Is all this covered explicitly in your contract?

khan86

spurious wrote: »

The union will have negotiating rights with the employer, which in your case is probably a BOM, or is your employer technically the Principal? You would have to check if your employer deals with the union.

My union experience would be in the VEC sector where we always dealt directly with the VEC who were the employer.

If you are being paid privately by the school, what rate are you getting? Is it less than the agreed common scale? What are your sickness entitlements? Is all this covered explicitly in your contract?

I wish I knew the answer to these questions, I haven't even seen my contract yet but as far as I'm aware other privately paid teachers in the school are paid in line with the department pay scale (I could be wrong but hopefully I am not in for a rude awakening when I see my contract next week).

spurious

When you get your contract, ask the school rep to get someone from the Branch to have a look over it. All branches have someone who is an expert at spotting things in contracts.

khan86

spurious wrote: »

When you get your contract, ask the school rep to get someone from the Branch to have a look over it. All branches have someone who is an expert at spotting things in contracts.

Ok, will do. Guess I better get joining and pay my dues first!

Thanks for the advice.

bdoo

Far too many teachers only run to the union in times of trouble. People need to be constantly vigilant as often things have gone too far before people decide to join the union.

As spurious says get into the union... and get involved. Inform yourself and inform others

Fuinseog

khan86 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone can advise me about joining a union (ASTI). I got offered 7 hours privately paid by the school for the coming school year, I was in the school last year subbing and filling in for a teacher who retired in February but didn't join the union because my work was irregular and frankly I didn't know enough about it being a NQT. Can anyone advise me on whether or not I can join the union if I am privately paid or is this irrelevant? Also, any advice for or against joining the union would be welcomed cos I really don't know a lot about it. On a side not, what are the downsides of being paid privately? I know I won't have pension contributions but will it affect my place on the pay scale if or when I get a department paid job/hours? I am not classed as a new entrant on the pay scale because I was on the payroll pre January 2011 but I doubt I have worked the minimum number of hours required in an academic year to move up the scale anyway. If I pick up subbing/supervision hours during the year that are paid by the department aside from the private 7 hours will I continue to pay my pension contributions from this work? Sorry for all the questions but I find the whole private/department paid thing a bit confusing.

unions very often do not care about junior teachers or those not full time, but will take your money nevertheless. some union reps are strong and able, others worse than useless.

ejak1

Speaking from my own experience,I was one of those part-time, non-permament teachers who the union fought for and won my case. My hours had been cut illegally. In the process I met hundreds of other teachers that the union, the ASTI, has helped with contracts, work conditions. It has even had to take BOMs to the labour court and rights commissioner to get non-permanent and part-timers their rights. OP, please join the union, and attend the information regional meetings so that you know your rights from the offset.
Some people may be dismissive of unions, but believe me when I say that knowledge is power. They have helped hundreds of teachers and a lot of what they do goes under the radar. There are very reasonable rates for non-permament and part-timers. I don't agree with all they do, but I can say they did trojan work for me! Good luck.

bdoo

Unions do so much behind the scenes. People want the union to babysit them and clean up after their own errors when they can't be bothered to make sure everything is right.

A union cannot deal with issues unless it is informed of the problems and given full information. A lot of people who speak negatively about unions, in my experience, speak from a personal point of view when they didn't get their way.

I have to say that I find that that the union will support legitimate cases fully. However people often are not forthcoming with the full story and engage the union under a false pretence in order to settle a personal issue. Then they bad mouth the union when they realise that they are in fact in the wrong.

I'm in TUI and I have experience at branch level, they are very efficient in dealing with contractual issues etc. The big picture things are beyond every ones control but people crib about the union not stopping pay cuts etc.

I think every teacher needs to be active in the union to make it effective and be proactive about problems instead of looking for a contract retrospectively when they should have sought advice heading into their fourth year for CID purposes for example

Fuinseog

ejak1 wrote: »

Speaking from my own experience,I was one of those part-time, non-permament teachers who the union fought for and won my case. My hours had been cut illegally. In the process I met hundreds of other teachers that the union, the ASTI, has helped with contracts, work conditions. It has even had to take BOMs to the labour court and rights commissioner to get non-permanent and part-timers their rights. OP, please join the union, and attend the information regional meetings so that you know your rights from the offset.
Some people may be dismissive of unions, but believe me when I say that knowledge is power. They have helped hundreds of teachers and a lot of what they do goes under the radar. There are very reasonable rates for non-permament and part-timers. I don't agree with all they do, but I can say they did trojan work for me! Good luck.

good to hear that. all the same if you have problems with a principal the union rep is not the one writing or giving the reference for future employment elsewhere.

spurious

Fuinseog wrote: »

good to hear that. all the same if you have problems with a principal the union rep is not the one writing or giving the reference for future employment elsewhere.

No, but the slightest hint of victimisation and you have the Principal over a barrel, especially if all the union interactions have been documented.

seavill

bdoo wrote: »

Unions do so much behind the scenes. People want the union to babysit them and clean up after their own errors when they can't be bothered to make sure everything is right.

A union cannot deal with issues unless it is informed of the problems and given full information. A lot of people who speak negatively about unions, in my experience, speak from a personal point of view when they didn't get their way.

I have to say that I find that that the union will support legitimate cases fully. However people often are not forthcoming with the full story and engage the union under a false pretence in order to settle a personal issue. Then they bad mouth the union when they realise that they are in fact in the wrong.

I'm in TUI and I have experience at branch level, they are very efficient in dealing with contractual issues etc. The big picture things are beyond every ones control but people crib about the union not stopping pay cuts etc.

I think every teacher needs to be active in the union to make it effective and be proactive about problems instead of looking for a contract retrospectively when they should have sought advice heading into their fourth year for CID purposes for example

I will speak from a personal point of view that did not get my way. I had researched and still have here all employment law etc. etc. etc.

There are cases like you say but there are also cases where the union are absolutely useless, I have one myself where they could not win an argument for a person who is not even a teacher gets employed over me in a specialist subject, when I had spent the previous year in the school (as had the other person doing bits and pieces). Now tell me that unions are always great.

spurious

seavill wrote: »

I will speak from a personal point of view that did not get my way. I had researched and still have here all employment law etc. etc. etc.

There are cases like you say but there are also cases where the union are absolutely useless, I have one myself where they could not win an argument for a person who is not even a teacher gets employed over me in a specialist subject, when I had spent the previous year in the school (as had the other person doing bits and pieces). Now tell me that unions are always great.

What sector was this in?
Did you get legal advice from the union barristers?

Seems a clear cut case - I'm wondering why it wasn't taken further.

seavill

Voluntary secondary sector.

There was a list as long as your arm of issues at that time with management I don't want to go into details publicly, as I was the new young person my problems were bottom of the pile even though to me the most clear cut case I've ever heard of.

I have no idea how it was not taken further, I was also trying to get any work going so couldn't rock the boat in a one person capacity.

Hence my "personal issue" with unions that was clearly not my fault as bdoo describes earlier.

bdoo

seavill wrote: »

Voluntary secondary sector.

There was a list as long as your arm of issues at that time with management I don't want to go into details publicly, as I was the new young person my problems were bottom of the pile even though to me the most clear cut case I've ever heard of.

I have no idea how it was not taken further, I was also trying to get any work going so couldn't rock the boat in a one person capacity.

Hence my "personal issue" with unions that was clearly not my fault as bdoo describes earlier.

that is outrageous seavill, in fairness you have every right to be pi##ed off. I was talking more about petty personal issues that are not union issues.

It does seem very unusual, I was twt in my job from march til July covering a sick leave the job was advertised in August, rang the union to ask what the story was ten mins later they rang me back to tell me the ad was being pulled as I was entitled to the job.

That's my personal experience and I have seen many cases like it so I'm pro union.

In your case it seems someone incompetent was involved, that kind of thing should be discussed at branch meetings until a satisfactory answer is found. I know it's too late now.

That is a disgrace.

seavill

bdoo wrote: »

that is outrageous seavill, in fairness you have every right to be pi##ed off. I was talking more about petty personal issues that are not union issues.

It does seem very unusual, I was twt in my job from march til July covering a sick leave the job was advertised in August, rang the union to ask what the story was ten mins later they rang me back to tell me the ad was being pulled as I was entitled to the job.

That's my personal experience and I have seen many cases like it so I'm pro union.

In your case it seems someone incompetent was involved, that kind of thing should be discussed at branch meetings until a satisfactory answer is found. I know it's too late now.

That is a disgrace.

As I said I was the forgotten one in the list of problems. There are too many to even go into.

We had the trouble shooter come down from head office to sort it, the most useless individual person I have met, and I have had dealings with them since also. So not a once off with this person.

I was young, innocent and very early in my career so really didn't want to rock the boat.
As it turned out I got sorted in other places since but these sorts of things do happen.

Plenty happens within schools that does not get past the front door never mind have teacher across the country find out about so I would suggest that they may be more regular than you suspect.

People have good and bad interactions with unions, but what annoyed me was how dismissive you were of everyone else due to your own experiences.

There is always a back story.

However I am still a member of a union and have been since I graduated apart from the one year after this as I was so disheartened with them at the time I just could not face joining. I have since for the security in the future should I need their help and working on the presumption that they will actually be more help the next time. I will certainly be a lot more clued in anyway.

bdoo

seavill wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

that is outrageous seavill, in fairness you have every right to be pi##ed off. I was talking more about petty personal issues that are not union issues.

It does seem very unusual, I was twt in my job from march til July covering a sick leave the job was advertised in August, rang the union to ask what the story was ten mins later they rang me back to tell me the ad was being pulled as I was entitled to the job.

That's my personal experience and I have seen many cases like it so I'm pro union.

In your case it seems someone incompetent was involved, that kind of thing should be discussed at branch meetings until a satisfactory answer is found. I know it's too late now.

That is a disgrace.

As I said I was the forgotten one in the list of problems. There are too many to even go into.

We had the trouble shooter come down from head office to sort it, the most useless individual person I have met, and I have had dealings with them since also. So not a once off with this person.

I was young, innocent and very early in my career so really didn't want to rock the boat.
As it turned out I got sorted in other places since but these sorts of things do happen.

Plenty happens within schools that does not get past the front door never mind have teacher across the country find out about so I would suggest that they may be more regular than you suspect.

People have good and bad interactions with unions, but what annoyed me was how dismissive you were of everyone else due to your own experiences.

There is always a back story.

However I am still a member of a union and have been since I graduated apart from the one year after this as I was so disheartened with them at the time I just could not face joining. I have since for the security in the future should I need their help and working on the presumption that they will actually be more help the next time. I will certainly be a lot more clued in anyway.

I take your point. We can all only speak from experience I suppose and as I said I find that people who get nowhere with petty complaints tend to be negative re the union.

Things must have been very bad in that school. I wonder if the union had been strong initially would the problems have been so bad. We will never know but it makes you think.

Anyhow sorry if I offended you

seavill

bdoo wrote: »

I take your point. We can all only speak from experience I suppose and as I said I find that people who get nowhere with petty complaints tend to be negative re the union.

Things must have been very bad in that school. I wonder if the union had been strong initially would the problems have been so bad. We will never know but it makes you think.

Anyhow sorry if I offended you

You didn't its no problem. Just if I say anything negative about the union here or in school I normally get jumped on so I am probably a bit over sensitive about it in general.

Yea very messy I won't say any more or else it will be easily identifiable

spurious

seavill wrote: »

Yea very messy I won't say any more or else it will be easily identifiable

I understand that and it not being VEC means it would be easy identify.
I'm wondering now do ASTI have any dealings with the overall voluntary sector management body (JMB?), as TUI have with the IVEA?

It should be a set in stone rule that an unqualified teacher is not appointed ahead of a qualified teacher, regardless of how long they have been in the school.

Fuinseog

spurious wrote: »

No, but the slightest hint of victimisation and you have the Principal over a barrel, especially if all the union interactions have been documented.

I have seen and experienced things that were not kosher but tolerated.
if ever you were to take a principal to court it would take years to resolve. i also heard if you do that your name is mud and you may never work again in the sector.
I had problems with a principal once and the union rep went into the principal guns blazing not necessarily to defend me but cos he liked nothing better than taking on the principal. in the long term it worked against me.

BTW can school management also attend union meetings? I know some teachers have issues with management but are afraid to say anything at union meeting when the DP is present.

Fuinseog

seavill wrote: »

You didn't its no problem. Just if I say anything negative about the union here or in school I normally get jumped on so I am probably a bit over sensitive about it in general.

Yea very messy I won't say any more or else it will be easily identifiable

I would be very vary about saying anything negative about anyone or anything in the staffroom.

spurious

Fuinseog wrote: »

BTW can school management also attend union meetings? I know some teachers have issues with management but are afraid to say anything at union meeting when the DP is present.

Yes, they are members like any others, so entitled to attend.
Some of the best officers our Branch had in the last 20 years or so were also Principals and DPs. I know during the whole development of EPT contracts etc., the help of members who were Principals was invaluable.

I think it very much depends on personalities. Yes, of course there are intimidatory types who 'spy' on meetings, but then that tends to be how their 'management style' is too.

seavill

Fuinseog wrote: »

I would be very vary about saying anything negative about anyone or anything in the staffroom.

Yes but a terrible thing really not to be able to have your own opinion on things

spurious wrote: »

Yes, they are members like any others, so entitled to attend.
Some of the best officers our Branch had in the last 20 years or so were also Principals and DPs. I know during the whole development of EPT contracts etc., the help of members who were Principals was invaluable.

I think it very much depends on personalities. Yes, of course there are intimidatory types who 'spy' on meetings, but then that tends to be how their 'management style' is too.

In a past school the principal decided she would not attend and told us so as she felt there may be things we needed to discuss without her there, she was still a member at the time. I felt this was fair enough.