Teagasc BTAP Discussion Groups

J DEERE

Received a bill in the post from Teagasc this morning - 485 euros for the year in order to participate in the BTAP Discussion group. They want payment received before they send away the relevant information to the Dept in order for us to get paid. I'm questioning the value of this group - 485 is a lot of money to throw out next month. Knowing the system of old, it will be surprising if everyone actually gets their 1000 on time or at all. I wouldn't be a massive fan of Teagasc as an advisory service either

I have attended 3 meetings so far and to be honest I've been questioning whether or not I'll continue going to the meetings. I haven't really found them to be of much benefit and they're being organised at really bad times of the day. When at the meeting, the facilitator seems to be doing all the talking and the farmers are very reluctant to get involved or participate. Being truthful, I find this forum 10 times better for information and throwing around ideas. I believe that they were flawed from the beginning anyway. A lot of good cattle men were left out in the cold because they don't finish animals or have sucklers. Some of the best farmers I know buy in calves each year and sell as stores

Im just wondering if anyone on here has attended any meetings and how ye are finding them? Are you getting value from it do you think?

1chippy

we got the bill last week. even though we werent accepted. went to two meetings and thought they were so so. like yourself found lads didnt want to get involved. most of what was discussed had been gone over on this forum already and i think our facilitator was a bit peeved with my questions and the fact most of the answers had been broken down here already. i actually told him he should join boards.
I have to call the department tomorrow to see if by any chance they will accept us back in. i reckon it cant do any harm anyway.

J DEERE

Our meetings last about 2 hours and its basically recycling everything you'd read on the Farmers Journal or see here. You'd want to make sure that you're eligible for the 1000 euro payment before you pay that bill. Teagasc might have you down for the discussion group package that they had running before the BTAP was introduced. Will you stick with it if you're deemed ineligible for the payment?

whelan1

i am in the dairy discussion group, and tbh i have learnt alot, you should not be joining the group with the atitude of getting the €1000, you should join with an atitiude of learning new things from visiting other peoples farms etc, also last year after modulation i think it was under €900 we got instead of the €1000....edited to say if you are going to the group with the atitude that you know everything already well then its not for you.... i still learn alot of new things both from here and the group, its a discussion group no use the whole thing being one sided, in our group , we all talk and "discuss" things believe it or not

Farmer Pudsey

I am in a discussion group and yes the teagasc guy dose a lot of talking however he is trying to draw us out. One lad however, he is a bigger farmer than the rest and he never says nothing and is slow to give figures. Now I do not want to know what he earns or what he pays for stuff but the mix of a ration that he gets made up??

leg wax

one as well ,and as whelan said you join to learn and get simple tips from other farms,our first meeting the adviser told us that we were been paid to do the talking not him,he was there to direct us and if you were not going to join in theres the gate now.i look forward to it as a social thing as i am home all on my own all day.

reilig

That's crazy money from them :rolleyes: :eek:

Teagasc only charged my Mrs €300 for her group. It also included doing some work on maps for SFP.
Is there any other service on the bill?

I agree with Whelan. The information from the group is invaluable, and we didn't join with the intention that profits were going to be up by the value of the payment. Hopefully profits will be up by some of the measures that we have adopted. Our main herd has been in the suckler discussion group for years and the tips and ideas that we have gained have been invaluable.

redzerologhlen

I have gone to 3 meetings so far and to be honest I am a bit disappointed. The farm walk is just standing around in the farmers yard for 2 hours, No looking at stock, grassland management, handling facilities etc. A lot of the group seems to be reluctant to get involved, the last meeting our facilitator spent 1 and a half hours talking about the different measures and then brought up the topic of the ideal suckler cow for 10 minutes, that is a load of sh*te in my opinion, we all know the measures that we have to do already. No topic that we have discussed seems to have gone into any great detail. To be honest there is a lot more discussion taking place on here, maybe is because anyone who takes the time to make a post actually has a genuine interest in the topic and that few posters would know each other in person. There is very few speakers in our group and its easy to tell that a lot of them are only doing it for what ever few euro is going to be out of it.

whelan1

redzerologhlen wrote: »

I have gone to 3 meetings so far and to be honest I am a bit disappointed. The farm walk is just standing around in the farmers yard for 2 hours, No looking at stock, grassland management, handling facilities etc. A lot of the group seems to be reluctant to get involved, the last meeting our facilitator spent 1 and a half hours talking about the different measures and then brought up the topic of the ideal suckler cow for 10 minutes, that is a load of sh*te in my opinion, we all know the measures that we have to do already. No topic that we have discussed seems to have gone into any great detail. To be honest there is a lot more discussion taking place on here, maybe is because anyone who takes the time to make a post actually has a genuine interest in the topic and that few posters would know each other in person. There is very few speakers in our group and its easy to tell that a lot of them are only doing it for what ever few euro is going to be out of it.

but if everyone stays quiet you will get nowhere, we wrote a list of what we wnated out of the group at the beginning, along with a few ground rules - like time keeping and smart aresedness- we review this every year.... also when we go to someones farm we give a few reccommendations on how to improve thing ... if you are letting the advisor talk for an hour and a half this is not a discussion group, ye make the group, speak out... we also write a list of what we want to discuss at the meeting- any current relevant topics, like ****e weather and measures to deal with it etc, i look forward to going to them, but its what you make of it yourself

redzerologhlen

whelan1 wrote: »

but if everyone stays quiet you will get nowhere, we wrote a list of what we wnated out of the group at the beginning, along with a few ground rules - like time keeping and smart aresedness- we review this every year.... also when we go to someones farm we give a few reccommendations on how to improve thing ... if you are letting the advisor talk for an hour and a half this is not a discussion group, ye make the group, speak out... we also write a list of what we want to discuss at the meeting- any current relevant topics, like ****e weather and measures to deal with it etc, i look forward to going to them, but its what you make of it yourself

I have actually commented on most topics I know anything about and I am not afraid to get into a bit of a debate on a topic but there is another 14 or 15 people in the group (cant remember how many) and the most of them very rarely say anything. The advisor started talking and just didnt stop, nobody was ever really encouraged to talk too much. If there is very little discussing going on its just a waste of time. I know a good few lads that are there that have zero interest apart from collecting the money and they would be some of the worst farmers I know, they should be booted out of it in my opinion because they are bringing feck all to it.

moy83

redzerologhlen wrote: »

I have actually commented on most topics I know anything about and I am not afraid to get into a bit of a debate on a topic but there is another 14 or 15 people in the group (cant remember how many) and the most of them very rarely say anything. The advisor started talking and just didnt stop, nobody was ever really encouraged to talk too much. If there is very little discussing going on its just a waste of time. I know a good few lads that are there that have zero interest apart from collecting the money and they would be some of the worst farmers I know, they should be booted out of it in my opinion because they are bringing feck all to it.

There would be some craic if you stood up and came out with that at the next meeting redzer :D

whelan1

redzerologhlen wrote: »

I have actually commented on most topics I know anything about and I am not afraid to get into a bit of a debate on a topic but there is another 14 or 15 people in the group (cant remember how many) and the most of them very rarely say anything. The advisor started talking and just didnt stop, nobody was ever really encouraged to talk too much. If there is very little discussing going on its just a waste of time. I know a good few lads that are there that have zero interest apart from collecting the money and they would be some of the worst farmers I know, they should be booted out of it in my opinion because they are bringing feck all to it.

we had similar in the first year, then the profit monitor became compulsory 6 of the lads where never seen again, sorts the men from the boys:)

Dont be daft

Have to say I've picked up a few handy ideas and tips from this site.

Went on a few farm visits when I was doing the Green Cert. and found them good. But I'd put that down to the fact that the lads were all young, lots of questions and theories flying around.

By the sounds of it, the group needs a good coordinator to get the lads in line and the ball rolling. But dairy will always be different to beef.
Beef men (especially finishers) are in competition with each other regularly. Its not in their interest to have other finishers doing well.
That sounds completely miserable but thats business. That fact alone would keep a lot of lads quiet.

redzerologhlen

moy83 wrote: »

There would be some craic if you stood up and came out with that at the next meeting redzer :D

Could be a good talking point

whelan1 wrote: »

we had similar in the first year, then the profit monitor became compulsory 6 of the lads where never seen again, sorts the men from the boys:)

I would have known the most of them before the meetings and there is a few who I know for sure have no interest other than to collect the few hundred that's out of it because they are so set in their ways. There are some very good farmers in it too but like I said most seem to be a bit reluctant to give opinions, its always the same 2 or 3 that talk.

tanko

Im with a group organised by a private consultant who is charging 250 euros for the year. 485 is a rip off, but not surprising as teagasc spend 60 per cent of their budget on pensions for retired "workers". I find the group very good, trying to get lads to stop talking after two hours is the planners biggest problem.

J DEERE

whelan1 wrote: »

i am in the dairy discussion group, and tbh i have learnt alot, you should not be joining the group with the atitude of getting the €1000, you should join with an atitiude of learning new things from visiting other peoples farms etc, also last year after modulation i think it was under €900 we got instead of the €1000....edited to say if you are going to the group with the atitude that you know everything already well then its not for you.... i still learn alot of new things both from here and the group, its a discussion group no use the whole thing being one sided, in our group , we all talk and "discuss" things believe it or not

I'm not knocking the idea of the discussion group at all. I was actually quite happy when the BTAP scheme was first announced as I had been thinking of joining a discussion group for a while. I'm just making the point that, overall, I'm a bit disappointed with the BTAP scheme and I don't see it as value for money so far. Maybe its just early days for the beef groups but I can never see them as being on a par with the dairy discussion groups

just do it

It comes down to the farmers in the group really and how much they respond to the facilitator drawing them out. I've the same facilitator as Redz but we've a few lads how contribute well in my group. I think the majority want to gain from it, although I've no doubt some of them wouldn't be there without the financial incentive. We've had 3 farm visits thus far and I was sick to miss the second one as of all the lads there I really wanted to see his place and stock.

I've picked up a lot more here on boards.ie over the years but the group is still good. As I work away from home it's not the one nearest me so I didn't any of the lads before starting out. Lads are starting to talk a bit more now, I always anticipated the first few would be a bit slow.

I'm going to volunteer my own place for a visit soon and I plan to have 3 questions ready for the group when they arrive. Like others have said here the farm visited hasn't been focused on enough thus far.

redzerologhlen

just do it wrote: »

It comes down to the farmers in the group really and how much they respond to the facilitator drawing them out. I've the same facilitator as Redz but we've a few lads how contribute well in my group. I think the majority want to gain from it, although I've no doubt some of them wouldn't be there without the financial incentive. We've had 3 farm visits thus far and I was sick to miss the second one as of all the lads there I really wanted to see his place and stock.

I've picked up a lot more here on boards.ie over the years but the group is still good. As I work away from home it's not the one nearest me so I didn't any of the lads before starting out. Lads are starting to talk a bit more now, I always anticipated the first few would be a bit slow.

I'm going to volunteer my own place for a visit soon and I plan to have 3 questions ready for the group when they arrive. Like others have said here the farm visited hasn't been focused on enough thus far.

You right what you said jd and I wasn't having a go at the facilitator, he's a sound man but not everyone is making a contribution to the meetings and I suppose he was trying to keep the ball rolling, every group is different and some will be better than others.

just do it

redzerologhlen wrote: »

You right what you said jd and I wasn't having a go at the facilitator, he's a sound man but not everyone is making a contribution to the meetings and I suppose he was trying to keep the ball rolling, every group is different and some will be better than others.

Sounds like you've more lads there for the dosh rather than the knowledge. Next year when the profit monitor is compulsory it might bring a bit of life to things;).

P.S. Forgot to enquire about Brendan at training tonight:rolleyes:

just do it

J DEERE wrote: »

Received a bill in the post from Teagasc this morning - 485 euros

Just opened mine this evening - €369 inc Vat.

simx

does anyone know when thetasks have to be completed by?

1chippy

31 october. we were told today. discussion group meeting today. i really thougth it was beneficial. hearing some horror stories though. one lad who hasnt let cattle out all year and a lot of others with cows in a long time. everyone seems to be talking a bit more. disappointed one of the real good farmers have been put out, he would have been a real asset to the group.

agcons

What has happened re the charges is originally we all thought because the groups were training the VAT would be zero, however during the year the revenue ruled that they were advisory and therefor liable at the 23% rate. this means a €300 became €369 and a €400 one €492. according to the terms and conditions the fees were supposed to be paid by end March, so in this case the slow/late payers got hit with a 23% surcharge.

Regarding fee levels we charged 300 (plus vat) to REPS clients and 400 (plus vat) to non reps. Dont know what next years fees will be yet.

On the question of value speaking to a number of our members since we finished up you can draw a direct correlation between their level of satisfaction with the group and the scheme and their participation rate. the ones who made no contribution good bad or indifferent are the ones least satisfied and the main contributors to discussions are the most satisfied.

reilig

agcons wrote: »

On the question of value speaking to a number of our members since we finished up you can draw a direct correlation between their level of satisfaction with the group and the scheme and their participation rate. the ones who made no contribution good bad or indifferent are the ones least satisfied and the main contributors to discussions are the most satisfied.

+1

At our last meeting, 1 or 2 people grumbled when the advisor asked if we thought it was value for money. The people who contributed the least throughout the year were the ones who said that Eur500 to Eur700 was not enough to cover their time for attending. The advisor tried to explaiin to them that the value for money was to be gained by making changes in their farming practices as seen and discussed during the meetings to increase profit as opposed to relying on the BTAP payment to increase profit. They shrugged it off and I don't think they really understood him. In short, they were attending the meetings to get the payment as opposed to making their farming practice better and more profitable. However these were a minority and I think the majority of people gained from the first year.

RobinBanks

reilig wrote: »

+1

At our last meeting, 1 or 2 people grumbled when the advisor asked if we thought it was value for money. The people who contributed the least throughout the year were the ones who said that Eur500 to Eur700 was not enough to cover their time for attending. The advisor tried to explaiin to them that the value for money was to be gained by making changes in their farming practices as seen and discussed during the meetings to increase profit as opposed to relying on the BTAP payment to increase profit. They shrugged it off and I don't think they really understood him. In short, they were attending the meetings to get the payment as opposed to making their farming practice better and more profitable. However these were a minority and I think the majority of people gained from the first year.

There is a bunch of whingers in my group aswell. I think it's great money. 5 meetings x 3hrs per meeting = 15hrs work. It was less in my case but let's say 15hrs on average. I am due to receive €700 after charges are deducted. That's €46 an hr. if someone wants to pay me €46 euro an hr to attend a few meetings and carry out a few simple tasks then I am very happy with that.

The tasks that you are asked to carry out may seem like additional time spent working but I'm pretty sure it will increase the GP.

Manoffeeling

[SNIP]
I don't think its fair to single out someone because of their religion. There has been enough hatered in this country caused by religion and I don't believe it sould come into this forum. Your comments could cause offence.

Reilig
Mod

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

The advisor tried to explaiin to them that the value for money was to be gained by making changes in their farming practices as seen and discussed during the meetings to increase profit as opposed to relying on the BTAP payment to increase profit.

I totally agree that this should be the ethos. I wasn't part of them myself.

Can I ask people who were part of these discussions , what is the one biggest thing that they personally took from them? And how has it improved your farm, financially or otherwise?

Manoffeeling

Manoffeeling wrote: »

[SNIP]
I don't think its fair to single out someone because of their religion. There has been enough hatered in this country caused by religion and I don't believe it sould come into this forum. Your comments could cause offence.

Reilig
Mod

[SNIP]
Please do not respond to the moderation of a post by putting another post on the same thread which tries to justify your original post. If you have an issue with moderation, please PM the moderator who carried out the moderation and if you have issue with a moderator, please PM one of the Admins for the site.

Reilig

just do it

Manoffeeling wrote: »

SNIP.

Sucra, I missed the first post!

just do it

Muckit wrote: »

I totally agree that this should be the ethos. I wasn't part of them myself.

Can I ask people who were part of these discussions , what is the one biggest thing that they personally took from them? And how has it improved your farm, financially or otherwise?

going onto others farms and seeing what they're up to. One member who converted from dairy 10yrs ago runs a herd of AAxFR cows run with a CH bull and has a full paddock system in place. For me the visit to his place alone was worth it.

ellewood

just do it wrote: »

going onto others farms and seeing what they're up to. One member who converted from dairy 10yrs ago runs a herd of AAxFR cows run with a CH bull and has a full paddock system in place. For me the visit to his place alone was worth it.

++

+1 on this saw a set up simular to that on one of our visits and if i was starting again would defo consider it - would have to be finishing them tho

adne

Has anyone been paid yet.

I think the discussion group is as good as you put into it I.e if you go to meeting with wrong mindset you won't derive much gain.

jfh

from our meeting, i have come to the conclusion, that people are afraid to speak up incase they look foolish. this forum is a lot more benefical as people have their anonymity & can ask what they want.

It is held on farms, just as a venue, the meeting has nothing to do with the actual farm, which i think is a mistake, as a lot could be learned by actually looking at different farm systems and comparing ideas, i can understand this, as the first meeting, the guy emphasied that it was not an oppurtunity to go around checking out farms. I know my own father doesn't want people "coming in for look"

it's never going to be a hotbed of ideas but i think we'll all agree, you get what you put in. too much is left up to the facilitator.

jfh

adne wrote: »

Has anyone been paid yet.

I think the discussion group is as good as you put into it I.e if you go to meeting with wrong mindset you won't derive much gain.

sorry adne, in answer to your question, no we have not been paid.

reilig

jfh wrote: »

from our meeting, i have come to the conclusion, that people are afraid to speak up incase they look foolish. this forum is a lot more benefical as people have their anonymity & can ask what they want.

It is held on farms, just as a venue, the meeting has nothing to do with the actual farm, which i think is a mistake, as a lot could be learned by actually looking at different farm systems and comparing ideas, i can understand this, as the first meeting, the guy emphasied that it was not an oppurtunity to go around checking out farms. I know my own father doesn't want people "coming in for look"

it's never going to be a hotbed of ideas but i think we'll all agree, you get what you put in. too much is left up to the facilitator.

I agree with your first point. A number of people in our group did not contribute vocally to it at all.

However, our on farm meetings were different to yours. They were about seeing what the host farmer was doing and how he was doing. There were printouts for all cows performances from ICBF and we got to examine the farm systems closely. Costs were a major discussion. The only thing not discussed was profit.

freedominacup

jfh wrote: »

from our meeting, i have come to the conclusion, that people are afraid to speak up incase they look foolish. this forum is a lot more benefical as people have their anonymity & can ask what they want.

It is held on farms, just as a venue, the meeting has nothing to do with the actual farm, which i think is a mistake, as a lot could be learned by actually looking at different farm systems and comparing ideas, i can understand this, as the first meeting, the guy emphasied that it was not an oppurtunity to go around checking out farms. I know my own father doesn't want people "coming in for look"

it's never going to be a hotbed of ideas but i think we'll all agree, you get what you put in. too much is left up to the facilitator.

Trust is a big thing in discussion groups. I joined an established dairy group this year having been out of a discussion group for a few years. I had been a member of one for over 10 years previously but it was split up and the members dipersed amongst a number of new more local groups and I drifted away from the new one. I asked my advisor about joining one last year and he said to wait until the new year.

Myself and another guy who had just started milking as a new entrant joined a group in the spring. I was very disappointed with the first few meetings as I knew a number of the members and to me they were good operators and I was looking forward to hearing their ideas/opinions at the meetings. I even spoke to the facilitator about the low level of feedback. However as the year progressed and the members saw that the new guys wanted to participate and weren't carrying stories about the meetings the level of discussion and contribution changed utterly esp after the new entrant had one of the meetings on his farm. Even at the "poor" meetings earlier in the year there was something to learn.

As guys trust each other more I think you will see more robust discussions esp where there are differences of opinion on input levels and performance. Our facilitator always goes to the host farm in the week before the meeting and at least some part of the meeting will focus on an area of the host farmers management system be that grass management, youngstock, breeding policy whatever. The facilitator has an important role but it's the members who make it or break it.

jfh

reilig wrote: »

I agree with your first point. A number of people in our group did not contribute vocally to it at all.

However, our on farm meetings were different to yours. They were about seeing what the host farmer was doing and how he was doing. There were printouts for all cows performances from ICBF and we got to examine the farm systems closely. Costs were a major discussion. The only thing not discussed was profit.

sounds like a good set up Reilig, it might improve next year. i wouldn't be too annoyed about it but i've to take annual leave from work to attend these meetings & usually i come away thinking, i should have worked & kept my days

jfh

freedominacup wrote: »

Trust is a big thing in discussion groups. I joined an established dairy group this year having been out of a discussion group for a few years. I had been a member of one for over 10 years previously but it was split up and the members dipersed amongst a number of new more local groups and I drifted away from the new one. I asked my advisor about joining one last year and he said to wait until the new year.

Myself and another guy who had just started milking as a new entrant joined a group in the spring. I was very disappointed with the first few meetings as I knew a number of the members and to me they were good operators and I was looking forward to hearing their ideas/opinions at the meetings. I even spoke to the facilitator about the low level of feedback. However as the year progressed and the members saw that the new guys wanted to participate and weren't carrying stories about the meetings the level of discussion and contribution changed utterly esp after the new entrant had one of the meetings on his farm. Even at the "poor" meetings earlier in the year there was something to learn.

As guys trust each other more I think you will see more robust discussions esp where there are differences of opinion on input levels and performance. Our facilitator always goes to the host farm in the week before the meeting and at least some part of the meeting will focus on an area of the host farmers management system be that grass management, youngstock, breeding policy whatever. The facilitator has an important role but it's the members who make it or break it.

you make good points there, trust is a major part of it alright, it might improve as we go along. the dairy boys might be a bit more progressive though.

just do it

next year's mandatory profit monitor will sort the men from the boys! I know my own isn't going to make pretty reading :rolleyes:

bogman_bass

I'm sure a lot of the cowboys will drop out soon and then you will see the real benifit from the program

follett

did any one get paid from the btap . they said in the farmers journal, there is over 4000 paid

patrickn

Payments are due to be in accounts by end of December according to lady in Dept.

hugo29

i have to say our group is getting better, we have had 5 meetings and they have all got better as we got to know each other, you have to remember some people are shy and may take a while to get going
The way I look at it is, if you only come away with one new piece of information you have learned something

€450 is very dear, mine was €180, i believe payments are approved but not received anything yet

reilig

925 euro in the account for the BTAP this morning. I'm not complaiining

just do it

reilig wrote: »

925 euro in the account for the BTAP this morning. I'm not complaiining

+1. The date of lodgement is 24/12/12, thanks Santa

1chippy

Must check account, cheers for that.
I found the discussion group getting better as the year went on. I am actually looking forward to the profit moniter, just to give a clear view of how things are going, glad i didnt do it this year though.

hugo29

just do it wrote: »

+1. The date of lodgement is 24/12/12, thanks Santa

Mine in as we'll

follett

i got it this morning 925 euro

follett

i got it this morning 925 euro