Neary's Golden Handshake

thegeezer

So here we are saddled with yet another bunch of incompetent no hopers in Leinster House, who promised to tackle corruption and make people accountable for their parts in the Irish downfall - aka Animal farm for greedy bastards.
So how exactly was the corrupt Regulator Neary "made accountable" for his part. To say he "knew" about the surreptitious loans is probably the tip of the iceberg as it is completely inconceivable that someone placed in a position of such influence, power and integrity, had no inkling of just how corrupt and risky the deals being put on the table were. It is simply inconceivable that he did not go through these with a fine toothcomb to ensure that the sums added up. So we are left with the obvious conclusion that he DID know all about these, and simply waved them through anyway. We know from experience in the past that these things usually come with benefits so it is reasonable also to assume that there was a reasonably sized element involved here. When he was finally forced to come clean, the old diplomatic card was played and he was allowed to resign with a mere €630,000 Golden Handshake + a pension amounting to €2,750 per WEEK for life !!
Since this despot was ultimately accountable for the integrity of the deals which have ultimately cost this country its very sovereignty, in the old days someone in this position was designated as a traitor. He should now be tried as such and if found guilty, should be incarcerated and made to pay back every cent he has stolen from the people of this country. Maybe even a stint in the good old stocks of Wicklow Gaol might bring it home to him how he has destroyed this country through his incompetence and corruption. If this administration can do one thing to get back a modicum of confidence in the people of their fitness to govern, this should be it.

Chazz Michael Michaels

thegeezer wrote: »

in the old days someone in this position was designated as a traitor.

When?

thegeezer

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

When?

For example - when it was feared that Michael Collins had signed away the rights of Ireland without consultation

http://www.generalmichaelcollins.com/Michael_Collins_Life_and_Times/9.THE_TREATY_RATIFIED.html

Farmer Pudsey

This is an example of the pensions time bomb his annual pension will be around 143K give or take a few fivers. It will also rise with wage inflation down the line. This is a transfer of wealth from ordinary people to the Golden Circle. His pension pot is worth about 5 million if it was costed. This is replicated accross the civil service and accross County councils, quango's and semi state bodies.

Younger CS do not relise but is will be impossible for them to draw down these type of pensions. Also those in the public services accross tne state services on low rate of pensions do not relise that they are being used by the higher paid staff to protect their lifestyle

Scapegoating Neary would have accomplished nothing. He was complicit in the financial disaster that befell Ireland, he was wholly ineffective and negligent in his position, possibly even criminally so, and I would like to have seen sanctions brought against him and his office instead of him being bought off with a golden handshake and minimum of fuss, but that does not change the fact that having his head on a plate would not address the core of what was (and to a large extent still is) the problem in Ireland.

Neary was asleep at the wheel, yes, but that's because that's what the questionable political leadership of the day required in order for the dubious politician/banker/developer stoked money train to keep on rolling. Had he been ousted and replaced while the tiger was still in full swing, it's very likely that his successor would have been installed by the same politicians with the full expectation that he or she would have been just as asleep at the wheel as Neary had been. This would have been necessary in order to allow for the same gravy train to continue funneling cash into a small number of very well-lined pockets while feeding the exchequer a disproportionate amount of stamp duty and property-based revenues which Fianna Fail (and it's hapless Green and PD bedfellows) could use to buy off vested interests and "win" successive elections.

Plausible deniability (definition) is alive and well in Irish politics.

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is replicated accross the civil service and accross County councils, quango's and semi state bodies.

Dont think any council worker in ireland earns 286k, from GO to county/city manager

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

Dont think any council worker in ireland earns 286k, from GO to county/city manager

No but there are over 30 County and city managers in irelan and they are all paid over 100K I think and a lot of there deputy's are as well. How may staff in the HSE are on over 100K.We have numerous quango's all of whom have well paid CEO's. We even have a quango to collect silage plastic and I wonder what the rate of pay for the CEO/Principle Officer/in other words what the bossman gets paid,

Look at the pay rates of the headhoncho's in the DAA, ESB,( average wage of all staff is over 70K I think) Board Gais ( where the average wage is nearly 100K I think) this is crowd cuckoo land.

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No but there are over 30 County and city managers in irelan and they are all paid over 100K I think and a lot of there deputy's are as well. How may staff in the HSE are on over 100K.We have numerous quango's all of whom have well paid CEO's. We even have a quango to collect silage plastic and I wonder what the rate of pay for the CEO/Principle Officer/in other words what the bossman gets paid,

Look at the pay rates of the headhoncho's in the DAA, ESB,( average wage of all staff is over 70K I think) Board Gais ( where the average wage is nearly 100K I think) this is crowd cuckoo land.

yes but you imply theres a ton of people who will retire on 143k pensions, when there wont be IIRC.
Even the 100k's will only have a pension of 50k (when i say only, i mean compared to the 143k posted)

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

yes but you imply theres a ton of people who will retire on 143k pensions, when there wont be IIRC.
Even the 100k's will only have a pension of 50k (when i say only, i mean compared to the 143k posted)

At present I be supprised if there are not over 1K people retired on pension of over 100K from the state and thousands more entitled to this level of pension when they retire.

We have two surviving ex presidant's five ex toiseach, four tainiste's that I can think of of off hand nad minster's, junior ministers etc. Then the heads of most semi state bodies were on over 200K. Senior Judges and consultants. Even a lowley teacher if they have full service retired on a over 35K, guards, prision offices ( who can both pick there best three years earning for their pensions and they do not have to be consecutive I think).

The pension funds in most semi-state bodies are in trouble and if they are under funded who will pick up the tab.

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

At present I be supprised if there are not over 1K people retired on pension of over 100K from the state and thousands more entitled to this level of pension when they retire.

We have two surviving ex presidant's five ex toiseach, four tainiste's that I can think of of off hand nad minster's, junior ministers etc. Then the heads of most semi state bodies were on over 200K. Senior Judges and consultants. Even a lowley teacher if they have full service retired on a over 35K, guards, prision offices ( who can both pick there best three years earning for their pensions and they do not have to be consecutive I think).

The pension funds in most semi-state bodies are in trouble and if they are under funded who will pick up the tab.

I dont want to seem that i disagree with cutting large pensions, but most likely, the people on 100k++ pensions are policital and maybe a handfull of the old Big Shots, ESB Heads, DAA Heads as you say.

I very much doubt there is a any teachers, gardai or prison officers earning 100k++ pensions today.

RichardAnd

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Younger CS do not relise but is will be impossible for them to draw down these type of pensions. Also those in the public services accross tne state services on low rate of pensions do not relise that they are being used by the higher paid staff to protect their lifestyle

I'm quite sure a great many of the younger generation are perfectly aware how badly they are being screwed by their elder "peers."

Tea drinker

Deleted User wrote: »

Scapegoating Neary would have accomplished nothing. He was complicit in the financial disaster that befell Ireland, he was wholly ineffective and negligent in his position, possibly even criminally so, and I would like to have seen sanctions brought against him and his office instead of him being bought off with a golden handshake and minimum of fuss, but that does not change the fact that having his head on a plate would not address the core of what was (and to a large extent still is) the problem in Ireland.
.

It would be a damn good start - if we don't start now, then when? Why delay?
There's only one way to tackle these things and that's through confronting our betters and stopping them. Whose permission are we waiting for?

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The pension funds in most semi-state bodies are in trouble and if they are under funded who will pick up the tab.

pssst large campaign started re some rumours of a 2.2 billion deficit in PRSI.
So yep, you are right, at all costs the pay and entitlements must be protected and paid for by the rest of us. God forbid any kind of normal pay be paid to our chiefs. I dread to think how many chiefs are in the 1 billion euro quango that is Fas. Sure we can't even pay the soccer chiefs right.
we pay 3 times what the leading countries pay, who are 10 times our size?
Who de fxck are we kidding?

Tea drinker

Tea drinker wrote: »

It would be a damn good start - if we don't start now, then when?

It would be a symbolic gesture, and that in itself is good as a deterrent if nothing more, but the real issue (which would remain unaddressed) is the lack of accountability in our political processes.

I mentioned plausible deniability in a previous post, and i meant it. Our political system is designed from the top down to ensure that the sh1t doesn't rise to the top and those who make the rules are protected. There is no accountability at senior level in irish politics. Look at our history, we've had gun running ministers being promoted to the highest levels of office, damning indictments of taoisigh who were as dodgy as a six pound note but steadfastly refused to budge, and successive ministers for finance and other key departments who presided over the greatest financial shambles our country has ever seen, yet did not resign and are still on six figures from the taxpayer.

County managers, rank and file civil cervants, and occasional lobbyists go to jail. Politicians on the other hand, retire quietly on huge pensions and severance packages. That has to change, or all the sacrificial lamb-slaughtering in the world won't make a blind bit of difference to how things are done in Ireland.

Tea drinker wrote: »

we pay 3 times what the leading countries pay, who are 10 times our size?
Who de fxck are we kidding?

That's because our leaders vote for their own pay, instead of having a properly independent arbitration process to govern their salaries and expense procedures. I would be on a quarter of a million plus unvouched expenses too, if i had any say in the matter...

Tea drinker wrote: »

There's only one way to tackle these things and that's through confronting our betters and stopping them. Whose permission are we waiting for?

Where is the vehicle to hold politicians in Ireland to account? The culture of deference referred to in the Mahon report is alive and well. We don't protest, we allow our politicians to make the rules, move the goalposts to suit, and protect their own broken system at our expense, and our laws, constitution, and political system don't allow us to make any challenge to the status quo, as per their design. We have built a system of blind trust in our elected representatives, and now our political chickens are coming home to roost.

We need to renew our republic, much the same as Iceland has done in the wake of it's (morally superior) handling of the financial crisis, or France has done before it several times (France is currently on it's FIFTH republic, and it's THIRD since the foundation of the Irish Free State alone).

We need a new constitution which is created for and by modern Ireland, which reflects the thinking and attitudes of our times, and absolutely disallows for any repeat of the disgraceful behaviour we have seen in the past from our political class.

Our laws and conventions are failing to keep pace with our country and it's development, to it's people's grave detriment. It's high time they were torn down and rebuilt from scratch.

Laminations

Deleted User wrote: »

Scapegoating Neary would have accomplished nothing.

My god, try and hold Cowen accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating. Try and hold the Anglo execs accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating. Try and hold the Quinns accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating. Try and hold Neary accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating.

When a figure is singled out for criticism and demands are made for accountability nobody is suggesting that we stop at that person. 'Well we got the bad guy, case closed'. But to try and focus on a persons incompetence, mismanagement or criminality only to be told it is scapegoating.... well we must have a lot of feckin goats.

We need accountability, financial consequences or pension revocations whether these people were 'just following orders' or off on a maverick run. If you were just following orders and didn't have to think for yourself or meet the regulatory role of the job then your job wasn't worth that much. The state should be reneging on these pensions citing inability to pay. If pension deductions are contractually impossible then civil cases should be taken.

Laminations

Laminations wrote: »

My god, try and hold Cowen accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating. Try and hold the Anglo execs accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating. Try and hold the Quinns accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating. Try and hold Neary accountable. Be told that it's scapegoating....

Yeah, OK, fair point. Scapegoating was probably the wrong word to use. There was clearly impropriety there, and negligence, and possibly criminality, and he should be held to account. Granted. I still hold though, that isolated cases of sacrificial lambs (albeit deserving ones like Neary) won't change our culture of lack of political accountability.

If the regulator got the chop for his actions and/or was subject to a civil case, and along with him the minister of finance was sanctioned or disposed of in the same way and had a chunk of HIS pension re-appropriated, and his political party was given a very public dressing down, then THAT might go some way to changing politicians' perception of themselves as untouchable, which in turn might make them think carefully about the consequences of their actions in future.

As it is, if one inept regulator gets sacked, another one can easily take his place and carry on as before. The inept minister installing them however, remains in an unassailable 5 year position of dictatorship until the next election rolls around. This to me is a bigger issue. Everybody makes mistakes, but politicians don't have to account for theirs.

thegeezer

Great points and great discussion - what about action ?? How do we go about redressing the balance and holding those accountable ? Well there is one way possibly, buty it would require a mass of people to lobby their TDs, or maybe even organize whatever needs to be done in the case that the Administration in power BREAK the Constitution.

The Irish Constitution states that the Government has a responsibility to the people to ensure that money received in taxes should be spent wisely and for the benefit of the people. Surely a tangible argument could be made that in bailing out the Bankers, Developers and Bondholders, they have broken the Constitution ? I have not looked further (yet) into the legalities of this, but I am sure that if we were able to get a number of Independent TDs to act in this cause, we could challenge this Government (and the last) that what they have done is to directly break the rules of the Constitution. Otherwise what is the point of having one ? The problem of course is that even if this did lead to prosecutions and even the toppling of this administration, who the hell would you get that is going to be any less corrupt, and who would manage this appalling mess any better ?

Add to the melting pot, the bizarre decision by the Irish populace to agree to put everything into the hands of the EU at the last vote, and you have the recipe for a disaster which will make this look like a kids tea party. We now have the added possibility that anything which causes further damage or hardship - like the forthcoming raise in PRSI, will simply be attributed to the policy restrictions of Merkel and her Fourth Reich.

As for answers, well at this stage it is probably too late for definitive answers, but at the very least those responsible for this whole mess, including the aforementioned saint Nery, MUST be held accountable. If that means loss of privelege, position, financial status, or liberty, then so be it. Right now, the Joker and his crew are laughing at Batman and robin because the Mayor of Gotham has joined their crew. What we need now is a hard line, independent, no nonsense - possibly even not including anyone with Irish nationality, to do a Customs style root and branch investigation leaving no stone unturned, and punish ALL of those responsible. Only then can we lay this ghost to rest and be assured that it will NEVER happen again.

Oh and one last thing - put in place lawful ability to extradite those who will inevitably go running for cover, and allows us to use Interpol to hunt them down and bring them back to face justice - however humiliating for themselves and their families. They never stopped chasing Ronnie Biggs and what he did was a mere drop in the Atlantic Ocean compared to what this bunch has done to Ireland.

bamboozle

Neary's tenure as Financial Regulator was an absolute joke.

Each financial institution regulated by the FR was obliged to provide quarterly reports to the FR detailing levels of debt, liquidity, detail on loans etc - so Neary would have had in his posession enough information to address the banking issue 3-4 years before the sh1t hit the fan. Nothing happened.

Regarding the collapse of Anglo etc ''Another document revealed former financial regulator Patrick Neary told Taoiseach Brian Cowen that Anglo Irish was in good health only days before the Government introduced the bank guarantee on September 29th, 2008'
More proof of the incompetence of the FR and the inability of the FR and his highly paid staff to have even the most basic understanding of the Balance Sheets of the banks.

Regarding Sean Fitz and Fingleton, they as heads of banks were charged by their shareholders to increase profits and in turn shareholder wealth. So the motivation was there for them to paint a rosey picture of their banks health - it was the FR's role as the REGULATOR to review the financial data provided by the banks to ensure all was in good health.

Neary's pension is €147k.

Ben Bernanke head of the US Fed Reserve's salary is $178,000, applying the current fx rate of 1.236 this comes to €144k.

so lets just let that settle in, the man with arguably the most important similar role in the world's salary is less than the pension of Neary.

what makes it even worse is the fact that Neary's education amounted to 1 year studying latin in UCD back in the '70's whereas Bernanke went to Harvard and completed a phd at MIT.

Neary should have been fired and had his pension entitlements stripped as his incompetence over a number of years had disasterous consequences. Furthermore whoever in their wisdom appointed Neary to his role should also be fired or have their pension stripped.

creedp

bamboozle wrote: »

Regarding Sean Fitz and Fingleton, they as heads of banks were charged by their shareholders to increase profits and in turn shareholder wealth. So the motivation was there for them to paint a rosey picture of their banks health - it was the FR's role as the REGULATOR to review the financial data provided by the banks to ensure all was in good health.

Did the above mentioned discharge their responsibility in a competent fashion? While I have no time for Neary et al I think to bring the above into the argument while at the same time arguing that Neary should be appropriately dealt with creates a bit of a double standard. What happenned Fingelton's €1m bonus? I presume the performance systems in the banks were designed to achieve the above underlined outcome .. they really worked didn't they? And yet where is that €1m? Why was it paid in the first place. It is true that Neary should be dealt with and dealt with severely but the reality is that there is no basis to remove his pension just as there is no basis to get back Fingelton's €1m. Now to the future ... both sides of the equation require serious re-engineering to avoid a repeat of what happenned.

bamboozle

creedp wrote: »

Did the above mentioned discharge their responsibility in a competent fashion? While I have no time for Neary et al I think to bring the above into the argument while at the same time arguing that Neary should be appropriately dealt with creates a bit of a double standard. What happenned Fingelton's €1m bonus? I presume the performance systems in the banks were designed to achieve the above underlined outcome .. they really worked didn't they? And yet where is that €1m? Why was it paid in the first place. It is true that Neary should be dealt with and dealt with severely but the reality is that there is no basis to remove his pension just as there is no basis to get back Fingelton's €1m. Now to the future ... both sides of the equation require serious re-engineering to avoid a repeat of what happenned.

i'm not defending the actions of Fitz or Fingleton at all, the point i was making was that they were under pressure/expected to make profits & boost shareholder value so it was in their interests to carry on as they did.

Neary's job role was to regulate the banks - he did not do this, in fact he did nearly the polar oppositite. Had he done what the taxpayers of this state were paying him to do this banking crisis would have been identified much sooner with far less impact.

i know there's no legal basis for removing Neary's pension, i still wish it would be stripped.

Far too many people here have been putting the blame solely at the Banks when in reality had they been properly regulated they would not have been able to carry on as they did.

bamboozle

bamboozle wrote: »

i know there's no legal basis for removing Neary's pension, i still wish it would be stripped...

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. In the case of Bertie, Leary, Neary, Fingers, and all the other celtic tiger cronies, If they are to be paid these bonuses and pensions, i would make them bloody well fight for them. I would let them know that legal basis or not, we would drag them through every court in the land, and call into evidence every single piece of dirt on their woeful performance that they don't want held up to a scruffy tabloid media spotlight, so as to make them such a social pariah that there wouldn't be a place in the country where they could get a kind word.

Stop the pensions, and threaten to utterly vilify them in the media and in court in order for them to get them back, then let's see how many of them have the gall to cry foul. Apart from Bertie of course, i bet there would be precious few with a hard enough neck.

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. In the case of Bertie, Leary, Neary, Fingers, and all the other celtic tiger cronies, If they are to be paid these bonuses and pensions, i would make them bloody well fight for them. I would let them know that legal basis or not, we would drag them through every court in the land, and call into evidence every single piece of dirt on their woeful performance that they don't want held up to a scruffy tabloid media spotlight, so as to make them such a social pariah that there wouldn't be a place in the country where they could get a kind word.

Stop the pensions, and threaten to utterly vilify them in the media and in court in order for them to get them back, then let's see how many of them have the gall to cry foul. Apart from Bertie of course, i bet there would be precious few with a hard enough neck.

In fairness, the media spotlight was on Fingelton for a while .. he was followed around by reporters .. all kinds of moral pressure was put on him to return that bonus. What happenned? He had the hard neck to place a pre-condition on him returning the money. i.e. paying it to charity!! In the end he simply f**cked off and the media got bored with him. There are plenty hard necks out there when it comes to defending their wealth. As for Bertie, this is the man who presided over it all and instead of hanging his head in shame and leaving the taxpayer alone, he is still claiming €10 of thousands in 'secretarial expenses' and visiting the exclusive VIP lounge in Dublin Airport at €200 a pop everytime he heads off to make a fast buck from some other ejits telling them about the great Celtic Tiger he created. Its amazing that not only can't we stop his pension but we can't even stop him claiming secretatial exenses from the taxpayer for his little speaking career. Its unbelievable ..

RATM

OP I feel your anger, it is completely wrong that Pat Neary gets to retire in Portmarnock with a €635k handshake and then another €3k coming in weekly on top of that- it is truly shameful when there are ordinary people struggling to pay their gas or ESB bills that he lives in the lap of luxury, all paid for by ordinary people who are on a breadline due, in part at least. to his incompetence.

But I think that it is important to realise the reason why Neary was picked for the job. Its because the banking CEO's influenced who got chosen by their chums in FF and theyknew that Neary was incompetent and would give them an easy ride. IIRC at one stage he fined AIB €50,000 over the misselling of investments to customers. The customers got nothing back and AIB got fined a paltry amount given that their own incompetence led to lots of people losing large sums of money.

The banks wanted him in there because they knew he was just a journeyman who would always say yes whenever they cracked the whip.

[Jackass]

Some very good points and suggestions on this thread. I have to say that it is one of the biggest let downs from this Government that they haven't gone after the fire starters of the Celtic economy.

Look at how IBRC went after the Quinn’s until they were locked up in order to get their money back and no matter where they tried to hide it, they went after it. Now I know there's a lot of support for the Quinn’s, but that mainly revolves around the fact that they seized a thriving company off them, ran it into the ground, broke it up and sold it off like spare parts, and then still held them accountable for all the cash, despite being the most reckless of all lenders, but it doesn't change the fact that the Quinn family are criminals of the highest order and belong in jail for their shady, reckless deals and their attempts to move around 100's of millions owed to the state and paying wages to anyone they knew to launder the money out of reach of the state.

It is very disheartening that there hasn't been an absolute fire storm of retribution.

Berite himself was on the ropes and let go and it feels like we were only touching the the tip of the iceberg with the goings on, but the Government has really failed to hammer the nail home and get to the bottom of all the corruption, the planning decisions. the lending managers and board of directors of the banks...from Bertie all the way down to the banks, everyone knew we were pumping a balloon full of air and that eventually it was going to pop.

The regulator should most certainly be stripped of his pension, and it should be fought through the courts. Who would oppose retrospective legislation being introduced to do so?

There's such a public appetite for it, it's amazing that it's not been done.

Economically, I think this Government is extremely solid. HOWEVER, it's one thing to clean up a mess, it's another thing to make sure it never happens again, and that's the part they've really missed imo.

Give it 10 or 15 years, the Corrupt Business man club will be back in and it'll be business as usual.

Massive reform needs to take place and massive sanctions need to be imposed on those who so recklessly failed us, so that the next generation of crooks can look back and think twice, because the last crowd were stripped of their pensions, imprisoned or just held up to account in a very public manner, to the extent that they couldn't walk down the street from being so exposed.

Haughey looked back at DeValera, Bertie looked back at Haughey, what will the next one think when they look back at Bertie and co. - probably wonder what desert island they're living on now...