the farm next door!!

mattthetrasher

well if you were approached to take the farm next door to you on a long term lease,would ya?

restive

It's location alone should make it attractive. The sheer lack of hasle of reducing the fragmentation of land would make it a no brainer imo.

49801

yes but it all depends on the circumstances/finance.... do your sums and make sure you'll not be a busy fool.

Farmer Pudsey

If you are milking and the terms are right it is a no brainer.Make sure it is a lease not conacre. With Drystock with 2014 coming up and if you can get a lease it is also a no brainer if the terms are right.

Tipp Man

not quite the no brainer that some would have you think

I think its unbelievably hard to justify renting ground for beef. Stocking a decent farm nowadays will cost 100k or more - then you have the issue of accomodation and the cost of it

You could quite easily be down a lot of money very rapidly - on rented ground - and lets face it the returns from beef are poor

The same issues arise with cows - the costs are even higher with better infrastructure needed, roadways, water etc, better parlour. this list is quite frankly endless

Then you have the issue of grass quality - does it need to be reseeded - if so then another large cost

Thats were tillage wins hands down against other farm enterprises. A plough will plough 600 acres just as well as it will plough 500 acres - you don't need sheds - and you don't care what state the grass is in - and it could be miles away - it makes no difference. The opportunity to expand is nearly unlimited

Having said all that if the land bounding me became available then nothing would stop me taking it

bob charles

would I what.... always on the look out for land but never anything comes up within 5 miles hence our farming stretches about 22miles end to end. different with grain but with stock having to be checked it costs money and time, thankfully we are passing our furtherest farm nearly daily anyway

Charlie Charolais

mattthetrasher wrote: »

well if you were approached to take the farm next door to you on a long term lease,would ya?

give us more info matt....

Farmer Pudsey

Tipp Man wrote: »

not quite the no brainer that some would have you think

I think its unbelievably hard to justify renting ground for beef. Stocking a decent farm nowadays will cost 100k or more - then you have the issue of accomodation and the cost of it

You could quite easily be down a lot of money very rapidly - on rented ground - and lets face it the returns from beef are poor

The same issues arise with cows - the costs are even higher with better infrastructure needed, roadways, water etc, better parlour. this list is quite frankly endless

Then you have the issue of grass quality - does it need to be reseeded - if so then another large cost

Thats were tillage wins hands down against other farm enterprises. A plough will plough 600 acres just as well as it will plough 500 acres - you don't need sheds - and you don't care what state the grass is in - and it could be miles away - it makes no difference. The opportunity to expand is nearly unlimited

Having said all that if the land bounding me became available then nothing would stop me taking it

Had a lad make a comparison lately. 10 ton of fertlizer is about 4.2K " 140/acre would rent about 30 acres which would be the best value.

sh1tstirrer

Since when do farms have doors

mattthetrasher

its probably 200 acres with roadways and slatted beef accomodation mostly under crops, across the road from my 6 year old 12 unit parlour.where i currently milk 80 6000ltr fr cows,i have accomodation for 120 cows.it would be a massive step thats why i started a second thread on private dairy consultant as the teagasc guy,well ya know yourself.but my situation aside would you rent the farm next to you,could you resist.

Tipp Man

mattthetrasher wrote: »

its probably 200 acres with roadways and slatted beef accomodation mostly under crops, across the road from my 6 year old 12 unit parlour.where i currently milk 80 6000ltr fr cows,i have accomodation for 120 cows.it would be a massive step thats why i started a second thread on private dairy consultant as the teagasc guy,well ya know yourself.but my situation aside would you rent the farm next to you,could you resist.

What is certain is that nobody on here will know if it is the right or wrong move for you - and without reading your other thread your Teagasc advisor won't either - although he might think he does

My only advice - be very careful as the size of the rented farm dwarfs your current area - assuming no other outside land.

When you start dealing in large areas then large amounts of money get swallowed

whelan1

40 acres came up for sale in 2008, would make a lovely block of our land.we bid on it, where the highest bidder, but the land didnt sell- family row in the sellers- i am so happy we didnt buy it... 2009 was a really bad year and i know in my heart and soul it would have crippled me to make the repayments.... at the time i really wanted the land but everything happens for a reason

mattthetrasher

true.but i do have 38 acres of forestry premia to put against the grass lease i have 125 acres of grassland.that would put me close on a half owned half leased set-up.i think i could grow cow numbers to maybe 210 and not build,just tag on 2 units on the back of parlour bringing it to 15 rows of cows.i might be able to adapt accomodation for the rest i dont intend on any capital expenditure(he said naively).leasing and reseeding are the costs i am looking at and of course the small matter of stocking it.but no stock will be purchased,if possible

Dont be daft

Agree totally with Tippman, be cautious as it sounds like a fairly big undertaking.

Might be an idea to maybe bring someone else in and sublet most of the farm on a short-term lease like 2 years.
It would allow you to expand at your own pace. Even if you have to take a hit on the rent it would be worth it if you could build your cow numbers from within without having to borrow.

Or alternatively finish all your calves as it already has beef facilities. Then as you expand the dairy herd wind down the beef operation.

Maybe even a mixture of both ideas.

Either way your the only one who has a clear idea of your finances and ability. Only you can know whether your capable of taking it on.

Username John

As always - my disclaimer - "I know nothing about cattle or cows"

But some questions I would have
- What age are you?
- Do you have a young family?
- Would taking the extra land justify taking on a full time person? (I assume you don't at present)

I guess I am conscious of the "does hard work pay" thread, and working all the hours God gives you wont pay...

mattthetrasher

have replacements coming on as well as some cattle and sheep also.i would not mind keeping some of it ploughed till im ready to stock it,the tillage might not leave me much money but it would give me possesion.

mattthetrasher

thanks for replys,ya i am 39 with 3 kids. always like to work smart definetly taking on one full labour unit.i used to have 120 sucklers and 400 ewes with land rented a few miles away so i have a fair idea what headless chicken farming is like so dont want to do that again

Tipp Man

mattthetrasher wrote: »

have replacements coming on as well as some cattle and sheep also.i would not mind keeping some of it ploughed till im ready to stock it,the tillage might not leave me much money but it would give me possesion.

The tillage could give you more money than the cattle and sheep;)

That's probably the best way to go ahead with it - at least with a bit of tillage you haven't too much money tied up in stock

also beware of the serious amount of cash tied up in increasing your herd through rearing your own as it will be 2 years before they are earning a bob for you, what are the costs 800 to 1000 per heifer - at least with purchased heifers they are milking the day you bring them in so they are earning immediately - you would need to do the figures in great detail to weigh it all up

mattthetrasher

if you were me would you take on the likes of mike brady to throw a few ideas around and firm up a solid 5 year farm plan and thrash out the best way to finance,money well spent or wasted?

bob charles

Tipp Man wrote: »

The tillage could give you more money than the cattle and sheep;)

That's probably the best way to go ahead with it - at least with a bit of tillage you haven't too much money tied up in stock

also beware of the serious amount of cash tied up in increasing your herd through rearing your own as it will be 2 years before they are earning a bob for you, what are the costs 800 to 1000 per heifer - at least with purchased heifers they are milking the day you bring them in so they are earning immediately - you would need to do the figures in great detail to weigh it all up

where are you located anyway matt. tillage can also swallow up allot of dosh (up to and over €500 an acre) and if its all new to you, you could be in for a rude awaking. Even seasoned operators are finding this year tough. all the winter wheat crops I have seen will be doing 3t with a small share stronger that that. you could sub let on a few acres. If your looking for a client:rolleyes:

Tipp Man

bob charles wrote: »

where are you located anyway matt. tillage can also swallow up allot of dosh (up to and over €500 an acre) and if its all new to you, you could be in for a rude awaking. Even seasoned operators are finding this year tough. all the winter wheat crops I have seen will be doing 3t with a small share stronger that that. you could sub let on a few acres. If your looking for a client:rolleyes:

1 thing i've learned - never feel sorry for the tillage lads

3.25 ton Barley @ 200 a ton = 650
10 bales @ 10 bale = 100

Total 750 per acre

Contractor stuble to stuble 150

Spray, seed, fertilser, what 300

Margin 300 per acre - thats with bad yields this year and i put the straw cheap and the costs very dear

There is a reason why they can pay as much if not more for conacre than a dairy farmer

Tipp Man

Also on the tillage swallowing up money

All the guys around here are buying seed, fertiliser, chemicals on credit - which is not paid back until the grain is supplied

I am struggling to think of an easier way to rapidly expand in any business

bob charles

Tipp Man wrote: »

1 thing i've learned - never feel sorry for the tillage lads

3.25 ton Barley @ 200 a ton = 650
10 bales @ 10 bale = 100

Total 750 per acre

Contractor stuble to stuble 150

Spray, seed, fertilser, what 300

Margin 300 per acre - thats with bad yields this year and i put the straw cheap and the costs very dear

There is a reason why they can pay as much if not more for conacre than a dairy farmer

You don't grow much tillage so. What about a land rent of 150, a crop of 3.25 tons is a very good crop this year and allot of it is still in the field waiting to be harvested. You margin is way out, I'm not a tillage farmer by the way just grow crops for our own animals but I find it hard to see where they make a buck most years.

Tipp Man

bob charles wrote: »

You don't grow much tillage so. What about a land rent of 150, a crop of 3.25 tons is a very good crop this year and allot of it is still in the field waiting to be harvested. You margin is way out, I'm not a tillage farmer by the way just grow crops for our own animals but I find it hard to see where they make a buck most years.

Whether you have cows, cattle, sheep or tillage the rent cost is 150 - it is irrelevant

Anybody worth their salt is getting 3.25 from winter barley in a bad year. It should be 4 ton most years

Idiots around here who wouldn't know a plough from a combine are getting annual wheat yields of 5 ton plus, i don't anybody who got under 4.5 in wheat last year - and in case anybody thinks this is pub talk my nephew is drawing a lot of it for a local contractor so knows exactly what is coming out of each field

No farming enterprise can compete with tillage - how do i know this - well they are the only guys around here who can afford to pay 250 an acre for conacre - huge acres of it - still have the new machinery - and still make money. They are blowing dairy fellas out of the water to get conacre

bob charles

Tipp Man wrote: »

Whether you have cows, cattle, sheep or tillage the rent cost is 150 - it is irrelevant

Anybody worth their salt is getting 3.25 from winter barley in a bad year. It should be 4 ton most years

Idiots around here who wouldn't know a plough from a combine are getting annual wheat yields of 5 ton plus, i don't anybody who got under 4.5 in wheat last year - and in case anybody thinks this is pub talk my nephew is drawing a lot of it for a local contractor so knows exactly what is coming out of each field

No farming enterprise can compete with tillage - how do i know this - well they are the only guys around here who can afford to pay 250 an acre for conacre - huge acres of it - still have the new machinery - and still make money. They are blowing dairy fellas out of the water to get conacre

you view is very simplistic, was standing in a field of max 3t wheat yesterday, half the field under water and the rest with ear blight. won't cover its costs in any way. was talking to spray guy today and he has spring wheat that have had five passes with the sprayer. I have 4 passes done, cereal farming is far from plain sailing

Dont be daft

bob charles wrote: »

you view is very simplistic, was standing in a field of max 3t wheat yesterday, half the field under water and the rest with ear blight. won't cover its costs in any way. was talking to spray guy today and he has spring wheat that have had five passes with the sprayer. I have 4 passes done, cereal farming is far from plain sailing

Have to agree with Bob here.
I've seen a lot of tillage over the years, both our own and others.
3.25 tonne per acre is a seriously good yield. And the thing to remember is corn is more volitile than milk or beef.

5yrs ago I remember getting corn at 100 yoyo's a tonne of the combine. That year I saw 5 different farmers crops coming in. Only one got above 3 tonne per acre and only then because it was sown a month late, pure fluke.

Contractors fees can often run into 200 very easily as can spray and seed.

The thing to remember is you have to put it back into grass when your done. Not cheap by any description and unless its due to be reseeded this alone would put me off tillage.

bob charles

we will start the bidding so - €40k a year i bid

200ac minded land with a good sod and buildings I'm assuming for 300/400 beef animals in good nick, along with yards etc

mattthetrasher

jasus steady bob i m thinking more like 30 it needs a bit of work,lots of reseeding to do.theres no point in going mad:D

Tipp Man

mattthetrasher wrote: »

jasus steady bob i m thinking more like 30 it needs a bit of work,lots of reseeding to do.theres no point in going mad:D

Lads growing crops - dairy cant compete

Farmer Pudsey

At present you do seven runs to milk 80 cows, adding 120 you will have 14 runs as you intend expanding parlour. When you say accross the road can you run the cows over and back accross the road ever day for grazing I prsesume yes. 200 acres will cost you 25-35K? It is a big step up like an earlier post said can you get maybe a tillage farmer to take half for a year or two.

On the other hand you will never get this chance again. The rent is crucial too much and you will find it hard to make a go. You are milking 6000L/Cow have you a big inputs bill that may reduce if you take this land. The big question is will you be able to sleep at night if you rent it some people can make jumps like this others find it tough going worrying over things that might never happen

mattthetrasher

110 extra cows,40-50 beef cattle when i reach my target.ok put 35k on the lease and 25k for labour=60k.thats 400/lu.cattle break even. 110 cows pay 7 cent/litre @6000ltrs v.c 11cent.other fixed costs 3 cent

bob charles

no point relaxing, how does €200,000 rent sound over 5 years, maybe even go a bit further if the land is in good heart, that a realistic figure that would leave me a profit in my head, there are many that would say they could turn a profit at €250k for 5 years . Don't mind having to reseed, tidy hedges as it would be in a grass/crop rotation anyway. too good to miss IMV;)

poor farmer

I think if a 200 acre farm is advertised for lease it will make well over 40k
Is there a single farm payment.

bob charles

Whatever you do don't

mattthetrasher

its not advertised and i dont know what the sfp is.ok folks if it was next to you what would you do never mind me well?

bob charles

allot depends on your mind set and where you want to take your business. In your circumstances at 40 and 3 young kiddies I would be just be happy with your lot. money stress can add years onto you, looking forward to a friday just so as the phone won't ring for the weekend with someone on the other end looking for money will put serious pressure on the most of us.

if you have a nice set up and a bit of dosh in reserve then it might be a different proposition. me myself as a beef farm I would probably take it on as i have no personal commitments currently or in the near future:roll eyes:. I would have to have all the contracts signed before I break it to my bank manager as what she usually says is "when will the point come when you have enough animals":D

Dont be daft

mattthetrasher wrote: »

its not advertised and i dont know what the sfp is.ok folks if it was next to you what would you do never mind me well?

If it was next to me the only question would be whether or not I took his hand off when he was offering it.

epfff

Id be in like flynn
like bob bank would be stressed again and their would be days i would regreat when missing time with family ect because of it
go for it

Good loser

It's too much of a leap with three kids. Wouldn't do it. The working capital would be huge. How about 50 or 75 of the 200?

pakalasa

I think you need to sit down with someone (doesn't have to be an official adviser, I'd have faith in someone who has done it just as much) and have a long hard luck at the figures. You've got to ask yourself then what could possibly go wrong and put measures in place to deal with these. Vaccinate for disease, cash buffer for market price falls, sickness cover ...etc.... etc. It will be a lot less stressful for you if you have your head around everything.
I wish you luck, but don't jump in blindly anyway, whatever you do.

mattthetrasher

thanks for all the advice guys.i appreciate it i will think on for another few days but im leaning towards trying to split it.maybe 60 acres.thanks again;)

Farmer Pudsey

With me it would be down to the figures if I could get is at a price where I would know that I would make a decent profit I would go for it.

At 140/ acre or less I go for it however if the owner wants that and any SFP on it as well ( say there is a 20K SFP) and he wants 50K for it I would see no upside.

Also temp leaseing some of it may not be wise with 2014 coming down the road fast whay give some tillage farmer 10K of a SFP to transfer to some other land.

It is what you are comfortable with also at some stage you have to be happy with your lot. Remember your kids are young do you want them to grow up with you seeing them play an U14 cup final or win community fancy dress competition or be there to take them to their music lessons.

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

With me it would be down to the figures if I could get is at a price where I would know that I would make a decent profit I would go for it.

At 140/ acre or less I go for it however if the owner wants that and any SFP on it as well ( say there is a 20K SFP) and he wants 50K for it I would see no upside.

Also temp leaseing some of it may not be wise with 2014 coming down the road fast whay give some tillage farmer 10K of a SFP to transfer to some other land.

It is what you are comfortable with also at some stage you have to be happy with your lot. Remember your kids are young do you want them to grow up with you seeing them play an U14 cup final or win community fancy dress competition or be there to take them to their music lessons.

using such circumstances you could use the new "reference year" to your advantage as guy may decided that land is worth €350 for the maps alone to get future payments. allot of the maps of my land will be available if the offers were decent as I don't see the future SFP as worth a crap into the future.

Just thinking myself, we try and grow something around 10% each year so all steps are gradual. if the right land came up that may change but growing fast is a difficult thing to do, and I assume lots of business fail that grow very quickly

jetfiremuck

mattthetrasher wrote: »

thanks for all the advice guys.i appreciate it i will think on for another few days but im leaning towards trying to split it.maybe 60 acres.thanks again;)

I see it like this. Its a no brainer. If you dont lock up the option on the land its all talk around the fire. If you dont someone else will. You can then be the decision maker on what to subdivide etc. With the doom and gloom sentiment around you may be able to get a great deal. Youll look back in 5 years time and be glad you made the move. Id also consider an option to purchase/owner finance as a mindest of buying. As you get older the willingness to take a chance dwindles. If all comes to all you can always sublet the whole thing..... Depending on how favourable the deal is.Ffs you are a farmer get big or get pushed out..

keep going

mattthetrasher wrote: »

thanks for all the advice guys.i appreciate it i will think on for another few days but im leaning towards trying to split it.maybe 60 acres.thanks again;)

i would be leaning towards a smaller amount and that coming from someone who is renting 70% of his land.alot depends on your relationship with the owner but if you have to take it all i would look at the option of contract growing tillage for a while due to labour,money and risk basis and also instead of building houses for animals you could use it for out_wintering stock.i personally think its very hard to pay staff out of a farm and would suggest that you should try and avoid it in your shoes as it renting land,expanding stock numbers and improving infrastructure will make margins very tight.overall though i think you should pursue it but may be not with the idea of hugely expanding your milking herd quickly

Dont be daft

Sent you a PM there Matt