On being femme...

baby and crumble

Hey guys,

Just saw this today on Autostraddle and wondered what people thought? In the article a woman discusses how difficult it can be to be femme in the lesbian community. It raises some interesting points:

“We are often seen as heteronormative, apolitical, less radical, and less queer in a community where being visible and valued depends on being masculine or androgynous.”

L.Jenkins

Do you have a link to it Baby?

baby and crumble

Do'h!

Link

fillefatale

I love some of the quotes given by submitters to the Beyond Lipstick project:

my flamboyantly feminine excess queers me automatically in any context. While my clothing/style may not scream lesbian, it most definitely says something

Some one who does not identify as a butch, androgynous, or otherwise masculine labels with a female body.

floggg

It's kinda strange that as a gay man you are seen as being more desirable by many for being more "masculine" but for lesbians you are looked down for being "feminine".

You would kinda think that if you are into women you wouldn't look down on them for being feminine.

Chuchoter

I think the Irish lesbian community, especially the younger set, are horrendous for this. The machismo and arrogance of a lot of younger 'butch' girls makes me so mad.

baby and crumble

I think for a lot of younger lesbians in particular, looking "obviously lesbian" (ie more butch) is a badge of honour while coming out... Most lesbians who would perhaps have been very butch or tomboyish while younger calm down an awful lot- I think it goes hand in hand with understanding who you are and being comfortable. And a lot of women feel they have to fit into that image too, even though that is not who they are.

I'm also a firm believer that the identities of butch or femme, or whatever you identify as is as much about your personality and outlook as the clothes you wear- and sometimes those 2 things contradict each other. That makes it difficult to understand where you fit in. Myself, I am probably butch to look at (tbh i dont know what i look like, other than 'me'!), but that doesn't necessarily translate fully into my every day personality.

I hear so many stories of femme women having a hard time getting into gay bars, and once there other lesbians don't believe they are gay or bisexual. My gf has a hard time if she goes to a gay bar without me- I seem to be enough of a gay identifier that it covers her too!

bikeman1

floggg wrote: »

It's kinda strange that as a gay man you are seen as being more desirable by many for being more "masculine" but for lesbians you are looked down for being "feminine".

You would kinda think that if you are into women you wouldn't look down on them for being feminine.

I always wondered this too. Seems a bit strange that more lesbians don't want or just don't go for the more feminine look.

Calleja

floggg wrote: »

It's kinda strange that as a gay man you are seen as being more desirable by many for being more "masculine" but for lesbians you are looked down for being "feminine".

You would kinda think that if you are into women you wouldn't look down on them for being feminine.

It seems masculinity is still valued as more, even in the lgbt community.

Shikei

bikeman1 wrote: »

I always wondered this too. Seems a bit strange that more lesbians don't want or just don't go for the more feminine look.

I think that this whole being looked down on/invisible thing is part of the reason for that; you go to a gay bar in a dress and you're ignored and then you try butching it up a little just to get noticed, it's a bit of a viscious cycle. Lesbians tend to not want to take a chance that a girl is straight so they don't bother : / I think its probably easier in a sense for gay men because straight men don't often go to gay bars, whereas straight girls will.

When I first came out I made the effort when going to bars and clubs, but I do like my dresses and I never get chatted up regardless so I may as well wear them!

Ambersky

LGBT people are often at the cutting edge of social behavioral and fashion changes to gender stereotypes.
There are big questions to be asked regarding what it means to be feminine or masculine.
Women and girls are allowed a wider range of clothing options than men.
In the latter part of the 20th century a lot of lesbians were associated with the women’s liberation movement either directly or through taking advantage of the new freedoms in job opportunities and social conditions. Clothing and fashions that were traditionally seen as male were seen as less restrictive and more likely to encourage respect from others. It was a move away from what was seen as the over sexualization of women at a time where women had restricted job opportunities and did not get equal pay for equal work, where the most money you could earn was in sex work .
Sometimes when people are caught in some kind of a bind where expectations and pressures to behave in a particular way become too much, you have to say no to the whole lot, go away and find out which bits you liked doing and which bits you just did to please others.

I think women and lesbian femmes in particular are now in a position to re-examine stuff like make up and lip stick, dresses skirts and heels and find out which bits are worth keeping and which bits are an expression of their true selves as free and equal persons in society without being bound by gender stereotypes.
I think men have still got a lot of work to do in this area. There has never been much of a mens movement to allow men to wear skirts to work for instance. It seems gender stereotypes are working for many gay men. Sayings like“I like a man to look like a man, why do so many lesbians want to look like men” betray a lack of imagination and restrictive thinking . I think there needs to be even more of a widening up of what men and women can wear and of what is considered masculine and feminine. Many LGBT people would benefit from this as already they dont feel like they fit in.
Ive gone to a lot of bars with people who, when they fist see lesbians they can only see that to their eyes many look like men. Gender styles are a social construct and lesbians are creating a much more complex set of styles and ways to be than just butch and femme or looking like a man or like a woman.

The feminine is not defined by skirts and make up and the masculine does not simply mean short hair and trousers. A woman may be wearing a suit and a short hair style but still be recognized as being very feminine. I met a women I know to be butch wearing make up and a femme kind of top in a straight venue, but she still had the same charisma and was handed at least one phone number by the end of the night.
I like that femmes as well as butches as well as all those on other areas of that spectrum are looking for more freedoms to just be and to express the being women in new ways. I don’t think that should develop into a competition about who is more oppressed femmes or butches and I have yet to see a personal ad saying “No femmes need apply” whereas I am tired of seeing “Femme looking for feminine ladies No butches need apply” Which is not to say that femmes do not at times get treated unfairly too.

baby and crumble

Ambersky wrote: »

I don’t think that should develop into a competition about who is more oppressed femmes or butches and I have yet to see a personal ad saying “No femmes need apply” whereas I am tired of seeing “Femme looking for feminine ladies No butches need apply” Which is not to say that femmes do not at times get treated unfairly too.

This. I think extremes one way or another are always going to be picked up on as somewhat undesirable for different reasons. Butch women get looked down on at times because they are visibly presenting a more masculine look, and "why would women who like women want one that looks like a guy?" Femme girls get told they can't possibly be gay. It's like no-ones ever happy!!!

BanzaiBk

Chuchoter wrote: »

I think the Irish lesbian community, especially the younger set, are horrendous for this. The machismo and arrogance of a lot of younger 'butch' girls makes me so mad.

It never ceases to amaze me how young gay women seem to associate 'butch' with being an absolute tw@t.

On an unrelated note I must admit I find autostraddle hard to bare sometimes Give me some lchat any day of the week though

Glitter

Ambersky wrote: »

I don’t think that should develop into a competition about who is more oppressed femmes or butches and I have yet to see a personal ad saying “No femmes need apply” whereas I am tired of seeing “Femme looking for feminine ladies No butches need apply” Which is not to say that femmes do not at times get treated unfairly too.

This.

I don't get this idea that the Irish lesbian scene is overpopulated by butches.
I have been out since I was 15 (= 16 years, I'm 31 now) and if anything the number of butches on the scene has dramatically decreased.

I am femme myself and (when I was single) actively sought out butches. Trust me they are hard to come by.

I really think the predominant lesbian demographic these days is girls who I describe as L Word lesbians (ie lipstick lesbians) who are all into girls who look more or less the same as them, and while those girls are feminine I would not call them "femme". Femme is something different.

apache

agree with above.
i would have thought it was the exact opposite on the lesbian scene being 17,18 etc. whenever i go out i see them in the pub and i would have thought it was much easier than in my time coming out when i was 17,18 etc. i don't really socialise with young lesbians - (just my own age group - 30s) but they seem to be really inclusive and don't care of what you look like be you femme or butch? and also theres loads out there who are neutral. you would never get that years ago.

so is it still as hard out there socialising for young lesbians because i would have thought the opposite. i'm really surprised at the butch comments. no way is there as many butch lesbians around!
maybe i need to go and talk to these youngsters lol.

apache

Chuchoter wrote: »

I think the Irish lesbian community, especially the younger set, are horrendous for this. The machismo and arrogance of a lot of younger 'butch' girls makes me so mad.

see that right there surprises me a lot! can you maybe chuchoter explain what you mean?

Ambersky

I dont think there are as many butches around as people make out.
There is an old saying that A Good Butch Is Hard To Find and I think like Glitter has already said the saying still holds true when you are actually looking for one.
I think this idea mostly comes from people that see lesbians and are not use to seeing a variety of ways of being female, on a night out socializing, without wearing what has become stereotypical female attire for a night out. They have quite rigid idea of femininity and masculinity but may not be aware of it and can only see things in terms of this is the way a man looks and this is the way a woman looks. So they naturally then see or want to see a room full of butches and femmes. Its like when you tell someone that you are lesbian and they ask "which one of you is the man?". Its just not that way but they cant see or think beyond man/woman.

Mace Windu

floggg wrote: »

It's kinda strange that as a gay man you are seen as being more desirable by many for being more "masculine" but for lesbians you are looked down for being "feminine".

You would kinda think that if you are into women you wouldn't look down on them for being feminine.

I know nothing about lesbian preferences, so that surprised me too.

One of the explanations could be that society (and gay people as part of it) still views "masculine" as more desirable than "feminine". Which is sad, of course.

Ambersky

Well we get right back to the insistence that lesbians are divided up into masculine and feminine. Who says that the lesbians are trying to look like men and some poor femmes are trying to look like real women.
What do "real" women look like?

Glitter

Mace Windu wrote: »

One of the explanations could be that society (and gay people as part of it) still views "masculine" as more desirable than "feminine". Which is sad, of course.

This is patently rubbish though; butches are definitely the most consistently denigrated group of lesbians, both by other lesbians, by gay men and by mainstream society.

Ambersky

I would think that because butches are the most visible they get the most flack socially but of course that is not to say that some women trying to explore the feminine in a kind of femme way could not run into difficulties too. As in there is no competition going on here just efforts at understanding and appreciation

Mace Windu

Glitter wrote: »

This is patently rubbish though; butches are definitely the most consistently denigrated group of lesbians, both by other lesbians, by gay men and by mainstream society.

Well, I just commented on the statement that femme lesbians are looked down upon, which I found really surprising. And just offered a possible explanation.

I myself know too little about lesbian community to make such statements.

Glitter

Ambersky wrote: »

I would think that because butches are the most visible they get the most flack socially but of course that is not to say that some women trying to explore the feminine in a kind of femme way could not run into difficulties too. As in there is no competition going on here just efforts at understanding and appreciation

I am not trying to instigate a competition of any kind. I'm femme myself, I know all there is to know about being invisible, having to justify my right to be in a gay bar etc.
I just find the assertion that feminine lesbians are not desired by other lesbians laughable, let alone that that desire is perceived as outside the norm by the majority of lesbians.

Mace Windu wrote: »

Well, I just commented on the statement that femme lesbians are looked down upon, which I found really surprising. And just offered a possible explanation.

I didn't mean any offence to you, it was the assertion itself (which was also made by several other posters at the beginning of the thread also) that I was branding as rubbish.

Ambersky

I was responding to this when I commented on no competition over who was the most oppressed

Glitter posted
butches are definitely the most consistently denigrated group of lesbians, both by other lesbians, by gay men and by mainstream society.

I dont know who are the most denigrated but I do as I have said hear the No Butches Need Reply thing in personal ads and I do hear why do they have to look like men said all the time. However I do also have to take what women like you Glitter have said

I know all there is to know about being invisible, having to justify my right to be in a gay bar etc.

and believe that femmes also get hassle and some at times feel exclusion. Thats all I meant by no competition

Glitter

For sure! I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet really.

Ambersky

I wonder what would happen if we asked the women here how they themselves personally identify.
Do you see yourself as butch or femme or somewhere along that continuum.
Or do you see yourself differently and not along those lines at all.
Would that need a new thread.

Glitter

New thread I think. And it would be fierce interesting.

apache

Ambersky wrote: »

I wonder what would happen if we asked the women here how they themselves personally identify.
Do you see yourself as butch or femme or somewhere along that continuum.
Or do you see yourself differently and not along those lines at all.
Would that need a new thread.

i would say it might be different to how they personally identify with themselves and how other women might see them :P

its true though. its all well and good saying there are no labels but we are all labeled and judged like it or not. it is human nature.

Chuchoter

apache wrote: »

see that right there surprises me a lot! can you maybe chuchoter explain what you mean?

I think what we've ended up with is a system in which masculinity is seen as much more valuable than femininity and this really comes across in the way butcher girls would treat people. They seem to have adopted all the worst qualities of the teenage boys they're modeling themselves on. They talk amongst themselves and if you don't look like them, you haven't a hope of being their friend. Its exactly like the way I see my straight friends where the boys are friends and then they treat the girls like a different species. Its really unpleasant.