bottle before FG is less than 1.010

redhugh

I kicked off my first homebrew "St Peters Ruby Red Ale" with a brew belt attached this time to keep the temp consistent approx 25 celcius for the fermentation process.
The hydrometer reading before adding yeast was at 1.044 i was taking a measurement each day after the first 2 days it was fermenting well and and the
SG was falling fast but slowed off after day 3 & 4 persumably because there was less and less fermentables left so i got two identical readings
on day 5 and day 6 of 1.012 (still not beneath 1.01 though) using the sg-fg/7.46 + .5 ABV calc this works out at about 4.8%

Q will this turn out ok as it was bottled at a FG of 1.012 or will it taste rank?

BeerNut

redhugh wrote: »

a brew belt attached this time to keep the temp consistent approx 25 celcius for the fermentation process.

Arrgh! Why?!

redhugh wrote: »

Q will this turn out ok as it was bottled at a FG of 1.012 or will it taste rank?

1.012 is a perfectly normal finishing gravity. Your readings are consistent so it's ready for bottling.

Rather than asking us if it'll taste rank, you could always take the direct approach and taste it yourself. I would suspect that any off flavours are the result of your fermentation temperature being on the high side.

Shiny

When I brewed this kit I bottled with a final gravity of 1016 and it tasted great.


I would never use a brewbelt though unless I had the fermenter outside in a shed in the winter or something.

redhugh

BeerNut wrote: »

Arrgh! Why?!

1.012 is a perfectly normal finishing gravity. Your readings are consistent so it's ready for bottling.

Rather than asking us if it'll taste rank, you could always take the direct approach and taste it yourself. I would suspect that any off flavours are the result of your fermentation temperature being on the high side.

Yes indeed i will taste it myself when the time comes around, i did think of that, i was asking because it was only bottled last night !!!!! so in about 15 days time i will taste it myself
I used a brew belt because my first one was a disaster because (this being ireland) the weather hit a cold spell and the brew went down to 15 and the yeast went to sleep and fermentation stopped and by the time the temp went up again it took a few days for the brew to start fermenting again then the temp shot down again, so it was a stop start process for a 2 week period and i couldnt get a FG lower than 1.022 this was after 18 days, so i decided at this stage that it wouldnt be fit for animal consumption let alone human consumption.

BeerNut

redhugh wrote: »

Yes indeed i will taste it myself when the time comes around

It's a good idea to taste at every stage in the process. Quality control and that...

redhugh

hmmm dunno bout taking a sup every day, but i did take a sup prior to bottling and it tasted along the lines of what a ruby red ale is supposed to, i was just wondering if it was was going to degrade in taste as the FG was more than the desired 1.006.

BeerNut

redhugh wrote: »

i did take a sup prior to bottling and it tasted along the lines of what a ruby red ale is supposed to

That's what I was asking. Right. It's fine then. When it's conditioned it'll taste more-or-less like that, only fizzy.

redhugh

I used bottled water i didnt want to taint it with tap water

BeerNut

Does your tap water taste bad?

redhugh

as tap water goes there is a taint of chemicals of it, i filter my drinking water even for making tea / coffee

Baz_

BeerNut wrote: »

Arrgh! Why?!

Was it the brew belt or the high fermentation temperature that you're objecting to with that expression or frustration?

The reason I ask is that the coopers kits specify a temperature range of 21-27 degrees celsius for their kits and say it's best to keep it at the higher end of that range. Being a good soldier, I follow them instructions and I'm now wondering did I ruin two batches?

There's a bit of an odd taste off the canadian blonde (my first one) but I don't know if that's just the taste it's meant to be or if the bottle conditioning might change the taste or what, but I would like to know if I should change tack for the future?

The Scratcher

Did you use dextrose or spray malt? I noticed a big difference when I stopped using dextrose and doubled up the DME instead.

Does it taste kinda cidery? My first brew I used cane sugar (like an idiot) on the Cooper's Wheat beer. It tasted really really cidery after 2 weeks in the bottle, so I left it nearly 6 months and it improved drastically. The longer you leave it in the bottle the better.

BeerNut

Baz_ wrote: »

Was it the brew belt or the high fermentation temperature that you're objecting to with that expression or frustration?

The former causing the latter.

Baz_ wrote: »

did I ruin two batches?

You can test this by tasting them.

Beer ferments best at 18C. Above 24 and you start running the risk of funky flavours being introduced.

Baz_

In my first I used the brew kit enhancer 1 in my brew. I'm not too worried if it's going to stay funky, it is drinkable. However, if it's going to get better with age in the bottle then I'm more than happy to wait patiently for it to mature. I've had only one bottle one week after bottling (Tuesday gone) and I'm waiting for the two week mark to try another and then I'll be waiting for the three week mark for the rest...

You raise an interesting point though. Some of the kits recommend using dextrose as part of the ingredients. Should one just completely ignore any time anything other than malt extract is recommended and just use either dry or liquid malt extract?

Baz_

BeerNut wrote: »

Beer ferments best at 18C. Above 24 and you start running the risk of funky flavours being introduced.

Why do Coopers recommend the range of 21 to 27 degree's for optimum results? That's the part that confuses me with all these recommended temperatures. For example is it just that you're using a particular type of yeast that works best at 18 degrees, and the yeast that coopers supply (though probably inferior, I don't know) does in fact work grand at 27 degree's?

BeerNut

Baz_ wrote: »

Should one just completely ignore any time anything other than malt extract is recommended

Personally I think one gets the best results by ignoring everything kit instructions say.

Baz_ wrote: »

Why do Coopers recommend the range of 21 to 27 degree's for optimum results?

They seem to want it done quickly: their fermentation times are much shorter than I reckon is good for beer. Also, I suspect that 21-27 is about as cool as an Aussie house or garage is going to get.

Baz_

Okay, a quick check on beoir.ie. And I'm aware of the irony that you probably wrote the guide, so I would like to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue here, just pick your superior beer brewing brain...

But I'm still a little confused. First the easy clear up because I suspect I know what your answer is going to be, but, do you recommend using malt, the full malt and nothing but the malt (whether liquid or dry extract)? And if so is there any exception to that rule? (i.e. if a kit asks for a certain fermentable specifically will you use that fermentable, or as you said above, ignore the instruction).

The major point of confusion for me is the whole brewing temperature versus yeast. I believe I am correct when I say that the only reason for trying to keep your brewing temperature controlled is because the yeast is effective at a certain temperature range. Is that correct?

If so, how do you know with these kit yeasts what temperatures they should be used at? The coopers ones have no indications on them whatsoever in this regard, and I never (in all the two times I've put a brew on) know what type I'm using other than just "yeast", and even at that I'm taking them on their word, because how in hell am I supposed to know any different.

With that said, do you think that just using the yeast supplied in a kit is fine? Or would you swap the kit yeast with a known quantity yeast?

azzeretti

Baz_ wrote: »

But I'm still a little confused. First the easy clear up because I suspect I know what your answer is going to be, but, do you recommend using malt, the full malt and nothing but the malt (whether liquid or dry extract)? And if so is there any exception to that rule? (i.e. if a kit asks for a certain fermentable specifically will you use that fermentable, or as you said above, ignore the instruction).

Sorry for jumping in on this one, but......This is entirely up to you. The type of adjunct used can, and does, have an effect on the final taste of the beer. However, nobody can really advise you not to use a certain one. There are commercial beers (and AG recipies) that will call for cane sugar to be used as an adjunct. Similarly, rice, honey, cereals etc. can all be used to up the content of your brew. With some kits (not all) there seems to be a noticeable difference when cane sugar is used as opposed to say, DME. However, I have (when I started out) made plenty of decent kits when just adding cane sugar.

The major point of confusion for me is the whole brewing temperature versus yeast. I believe I am correct when I say that the only reason for trying to keep your brewing temperature controlled is because the yeast is effective at a certain temperature range. Is that correct?

Mostly, yes. A lot of brewers will try to hit a consistant temperature during the fermentation phase as the it is believed that the yeast will be better working within that range. A few things to note though; not every yeast is the same. Some yeast cultures prefer a much lower temperature while some higher. However, I have been watching, with interest, some recent experiments preformed that seems to suggest that temperature range can be quite wide for most yeast. I'd be more worried about PH levels and/or nutrients in your brew.

If so, how do you know with these kit yeasts what temperatures they should be used at? The coopers ones have no indications on them whatsoever in this regard, and I never (in all the two times I've put a brew on) know what type I'm using other than just "yeast", and even at that I'm taking them on their word, because how in hell am I supposed to know any different.

With that said, do you think that just using the yeast supplied in a kit is fine? Or would you swap the kit yeast with a known quantity yeast?

You don't know anything, really, about the yeast in kits. I always recommend throwing the yeast away with kits and ordering a strain to match the style from you homebrew store. The reason for this is twofold; firstly, you have no idea what the conditions the yeast has been stored in. Usually the yeast is jammed under the tin lid. This could have been sitting a higher than room temperature for a long time, which will cause high lag time when pitched. Secondly, as you alluded to, there are little to no instructions on the kit yeast, nor are you informed (mostly) what strain it is. Buying a new packet of yeast will put your mind at ease. Most good homebrew shops will store the yeast at a decent temperature. They will have a best before date, you will know the yeast strain, and there will be some indication to flocculation levels etc.

While I only make all grain beer now I certainly did make decent kit beers for a while. You just need to tweak it a bit. I think the biggest problems in most beer is the water. Get your water right and your on the way

The Scratcher

Good reply. I know this is of the topic of the original thread, but what do you mean by get the water right? Is there a preferred PH level? is resevoir tap water a no no? should the water be filtered before being used, ie a Brita type filter or one of those salt tank type things for eliminating lime. (up to now I've been just using water straight from the tap here in the city.)

I'm still at kit and extract stage but I plan on going all grain soon. I'm currently 'procuring' kegs to make a decent brewhouse. I've a frame already welded up and ready to go and just need a few bits and bobs and I'm ready to jump into the deep end.

BeerNut

Baz_ wrote: »

But I'm still a little confused. First the easy clear up because I suspect I know what your answer is going to be, but, do you recommend using malt, the full malt and nothing but the malt (whether liquid or dry extract)?

Starting out, yes. Dry over liquid.

Baz_ wrote: »

And if so is there any exception to that rule?

Yes, if you are an experienced brewer and know what you're doing and what the result will be: go for it. But if you're new to the hobby and want to minimise the risk of your first beers not tasting nice, spraymalt seems to me to be the safest top-up fermentable for 1.7kg kits. YM, as in all things brewing, MV.

Baz_ wrote: »

(i.e. if a kit asks for a certain fermentable specifically will you use that fermentable, or as you said above, ignore the instruction).

Kits are a way of getting cheap beer easily. There's no gastro-gourmet rationale in their instructions. I also think the branded sugars like "kit enhancer", "brewing sugar" and "carbonation drops" are a bit of a scam. It's just sugar.

Baz_ wrote: »

I believe I am correct when I say that the only reason for trying to keep your brewing temperature controlled is because the yeast is effective at a certain temperature range. Is that correct?

Nnnnoooo. It's true that the yeast is only effective in a certain range. But it's a wild animal and it can turn nasty on you while inside its effective temperature range. To minimise this risk, keep things cool and slow.

Baz_ wrote: »

If so, how do you know with these kit yeasts what temperatures they should be used at?

They're pretty much all the same species: ale yeast. Works best at 18C for most styles. There's the odd exception like the weissbier or Belgian-style yeasts, but for most of the English-Irish-American-Australian-style kits you want a fairly neutral flavour contribution from the yeast so slow and cool is the way to go.

Baz_ wrote: »

how in hell am I supposed to know any different.

Experience. If taking them at their word is getting you the results you want then keep doing that.

Baz_ wrote: »

do you think that just using the yeast supplied in a kit is fine?

Mostly, yeah. I've always got drinkable beer out the other end when using it.

Baz_ wrote: »

Or would you swap the kit yeast with a known quantity yeast?

For me it kinda goes against the spirit of kits as quick-and-easy. If I'm going to be all precious about yeast I'd rather be precious about the rest of the recipe too. That's why I brew extract rather than kits.

Baz_

azzeretti wrote: »

Sorry for jumping in on this one, but......

Feel free to jump in whenever you want.

azzeretti wrote: »

This is entirely up to you. The type of adjunct used can...

So then I guess my question is do I follow recommendations from the kit, make up my own mind on fermentables based on my own taste and experience, look up a kit recipe online or a combination of the above?

What do you mostly use now that you're all grain?

azzeretti wrote: »

I'd be more worried about PH levels and/or nutrients in your brew.

Well I wasn't even thinking about pH levels and nutrients in my brew never mind worrying about them, but I am now. I don't use nutrients and I've no way to measure pH. I wouldn't know what to do about pH levels even if I could measure them

azzeretti wrote: »

I always recommend throwing the yeast away with kits and ordering a strain to match the style from you homebrew store.

How do I find out which yeast to buy?

azzeretti wrote: »

While I only make all grain beer now I certainly did make decent kit beers for a while. You just need to tweak it a bit. I think the biggest problems in most beer is the water. Get your water right and your on the way

Another thing I was unconcerned about before reading your post was water, I was happily adding tap water into my brew, now I'm not so sure. Any more info there?

Baz_

Right I'm just about to go to sleep an I thought I better apologise to redhugh for somewhat hijacking your thread. Sorry bro.

Shiny

Baz I was in the exact same position as you were 18 months ago. I started with kits, did about 8 of them, did a few extract brews (like the beernut does) and then finally moved onto all grain.

I read the instructions but I followed what this guy did instead, was much more confortable. I only ever used brewing sugar once as it came in the first coppers kit and have never used it since, I preferred malt extract instead as it contributes body/alcohol as opposed to just alcohol. I found that once I was famailiar with the process, I wanted more control or more of a challenge.

The first change I made was when I made my first IPA kit, I used Safale US05 yeast as I read that it is one of the most popular dry yeasts for ales. The results were fantastic although I'm sure the coopers yeast would have been pretty good too as that kit really is one of the best ones. I also used 5L bottles of water from Tesco for all my brews for ages as I had read that yeast didn't like chlorine. In hindsight I don't think it really matters that much, if your water tastes good then it is fine for brewing, I bought a tonne of water before realising this....

At this stage I was living on youtube watching all the (mainly american) guys boiling wort, adding hops, mashing etc.... So I started to buy kits that included some grains and hops that you steeped before making the kit as normal. I had great fun making these and decided to start looking at making an extract brew. The main difference between kits and extract is that you are going to be boiling wort in a pot on the stove and adding hops to it. The kits already come with pre-hopped extract in tins so there is no need for a boil other than the water required to dissolve it.

I will never forget my first extract brew as it was a great experience, I had done much research before hand that I was ready to deal with the stuff that inevitably went wrong. It was my first time to see hops/grains and the apartment complex literally smelt like a brewery for several hours. I made 2 or 3 extract brews and thought, I'm not that far from being able to make an all grain brew.

The difference between all grain and extract is that in extract you are getting the bulk of your fermentatibles from malt extract in which you maybe steep grains and later add hops and other stuff during the boil. In all grain you are extracting the sugar from the grains yourself using a process called mashing. It usually requires a full boil (up to 30Litres) where in extract you might be able to get away with as little as 15Litres in the boil to top up later (for 19L batches). Only at this point did I start to think about water PH as I was (and still am) getting poor conversion when mashing but I wont get into that now.

The main reason I changed to all grain was I love the process of brewing, I think that extract can make beer of the same or better quality if you so choose.

I hope this helps.

azzeretti

Shiny is spot on. Reading back over my post I hope I didn't scare anyone talking about PH etc. With kits, as TBN says, you're really at the lower end of quality and its offset against price and convenience.

Regarding knowing which yeast to get; just post your style here or any home brew forum and you'll get the answer you need. There are some generic yeasts, SafAle05 is a US ale yeast (but can be used for many other styles) SafAle04 is British Ale yeast and is also pretty versatile.

The issues with water can be related to PH, Chlorine, Chrloamines and many other compontents that can be too many or too little. Mostly though, this are really only a concern for all grain brewers as water composition can have an effect on the conversion process. PH and/or Chorlone/(amines) are alrounders though in my opinion as these can effect yeast. You don't need to be buying any fancy water or filters though. Filling a bucket and leaving it overnight should take care of the chloramines while a simple campden tablet (available in your homebrew shop) will take care of the chlorine.

Don't be worrying though, yeast is pretty hardy and, as I have said before, I've put it through some pretty intensive things over the years and always came out with something drinkable