Am I being treated unfairly as a salary worker?

Skilgannon79

Hi, I could really do with some advice on this matter, I've looked through the NERA website but all the information seems more relevant to hourly paid workers and I still have the same questions after my research so hopefully someone on here can help me.

I get paid salary and I'm in a supervisory position. I've always been paid salary in previous jobs and I have never had a problem putting in extra hours even though as a salary worker I don't get paid for them. However my employers in the past have always been grateful for the extra effort and have always been willing to return the favour on the odd occasion that I'd need some time off. Its a very different story in my current job. On a normal week I would work anywhere from 40 - 48 hours per week, the week before last was very busy for us and I was covering for someone that was on holidays so I ended up working a 62 hour week and I also worked two Saturdays in a row which I don't get paid for. What happens with the hourly paid workers is they get a rostered day off during the week to balance their hours if they work 6 days or long days so I asked my employer for 2 rostered days off in light of the extra hours worked as I needed days off and I had no holidays left. I was told that when I balanced my hours across 6 weeks that it was only a few hours extra each week and that I didn't have the extra hours for the two days so now I have to apply for 2 days unpaid leave since I've no holidays left which means I'm down money at the end of this month despite working all those extra hours which my employer now pockets the benefit from. Is this fair and do I have any rights in this situation? For extra hours that I work I don't accumulate extra holiday hours which our hourly paid employees do and if I'm out sick for a day I lose that days pay despite all the extra hours I work. It just seems that my employer has no problem taking extra from me but is giving absolutely nothing back?

Sorry for the long rant but I'm really at wits end over this situation and would be very grateful of any help or advice. Thanks.

allibastor

You should bring up the question to your HR staff or manager. if a company expects you to extend your contract over and beyond what is written down, they should expect to compensate you in some form. The working saturdays thing especially would warrant time off in lieu.

saying that, employers now realize that if they pay you well and you are certain of a job every monday that you should just pull up your socks and get on with it.

You yourself need to think if it worth giving out about, technically they should give you time off in lieu for extra days, but i would read through my employment contract first, it should have a clause in there for extra working days, or if you are in an industry where extra hours are to be expected it may have a disclaimer.

read your contract first, talk to HR second.

the_syco

Did you "just cover" the employee that was sick, or were you asked to do so?

I find that if I do stuff on my own initiative such as extra time, it doesn't count if I ask for it to count after I have done it, but if someone higher up authorizes it beforehand, it is counted.

In future, maybe you should ask (for it to be counted) before you leap?

AnonoBoy

They dock you pay if you're sick? Surely if you're on a salary you're entitled to sick days. If they're doing that then they certainly should be paying you extra for overtime. However I'm pretty sure they have to give you a certain number of sick days.

tatli_lokma

AnonoBoy wrote: »

They dock you pay if you're sick? Surely if you're on a salary you're entitled to sick days. If they're doing that then they certainly should be paying you extra for overtime. However I'm pretty sure they have to give you a certain number of sick days.

no they don't - there is no legal requirement to pay sick pay

citizensinformation.ie wrote:

In general an employee has no right under employment law in Ireland to be paid while on sick leave. Consequently, it is at the discretion of the employer to decide his/her own policy on sick pay and sick leave, subject to the employee’s contract or terms of employment

Skilgannon79

Thanks for all the advice. I should probably clarify a few things to make it clearer for you. First of all there is a clause in my terms of employment that says I may be required to work extra hours as required. I've no problem with that either as I've always worked extra hours and have never looked for anything in return. Also the person I was covering for is a direct report of mine so its also my responsibility to cover them. The issue I do have is with the two Saturdays I worked and also the week of 62 hours which I would consider to be well above what could be reasonably expected as normal hours and between the extra hours and the Saturdays should I be entitled to days off in lieu or is it at the discretion of the employer?? Basically what I want to know is my legal entitlement, I know what I think is fair isn't really relevant I just want to know what the situation is legally.

wmpdd3

in retail management it can be like this. If someone is on holidays, id bring it to the managers attention that their tasks will have to be covered and i might be free to cover the extra days if the two days i want could be worked into the rota, NOW. You get smart about these things. Also if you have an automated clocking system, it will automatically accru holiday houts for time worked. Ours does, you just have to clock what hours you were actually there. Though, i have been asked to clock out and go back to work.

Skilgannon79

Little Ted wrote: »

no they don't - there is no legal requirement to pay sick pay

Thanks for that Little Ted, I know I'm not entitled to sick pay as much as it irks me. It seems quite unfair that I could give so much of my time in extra hours each week and then when I call in sick on isolated occasions I'm docked pay. But then that's the law so I can't argue with it, it's something I'll definitely be looking closer at before I take on any job in the future!

allibastor

we would need to see your contract in order to know what you are entitled to. simple as that. some contracts of employment state that if you are in an industry which is expecting extra hours or busy schedules which would require extra working, they make make a note in your contract that it will be expected as part of the job.

you really need to sit down and read the contract. though it would seem that your employer is one of these places that has all the benefits stacked in their favor if they have you penalized in terms sick days and the like.

Skilgannon79

wmpdd3 wrote: »

in retail management it can be like this. If someone is on holidays, id bring it to the managers attention that their tasks will have to be covered and i might be free to cover the extra days if the two days i want could be worked into the rota, NOW. You get smart about these things. Also if you have an automated clocking system, it will automatically accru holiday houts for time worked. Ours does, you just have to clock what hours you were actually there. Though, i have been asked to clock out and go back to work.

By the way I'm the production manager for this company! We do have a clock card system and I do clock in and out for work and also I have to clock out for breaks, if not I get e-mails from the HR manager and a note goes on my employee file. What I normally do is clock out, go back to work, then clock back in 15 mins later. I generally don't take breaks as I'm always being called and paged to deal with issues so I just grab a bite to eat at my desk when I can. If I miss a break and don't clock for it the HR manager inputs a break on the clock card system for me anyway. Regardless of how many hours I accrue on the clock card system I still don't get any extra holiday hours of time in lieu.

allibastor

Skilgannon79 wrote: »

By the way I'm the production manager for this company! We do have a clock card system and I do clock in and out for work and also I have to clock out for breaks, if not I get e-mails from the HR manager and a note goes on my employee file. What I normally do is clock out, go back to work, then clock back in 15 mins later. I generally don't take breaks as I'm always being called and paged to deal with issues so I just grab a bite to eat at my desk when I can. If I miss a break and don't clock for it the HR manager inputs a break on the clock card system for me anyway. Regardless of how many hours I accrue on the clock card system I still don't get any extra holiday hours of time in lieu.

Just bring it to the attention to the HR manager that it not acceptable for them to clock you in and out when you are working. you should also make it known to them that unless things do change you will be working you normal week and nothing more, they can't fire you for fulfilling your side of the contract

tatli_lokma

Skilgannon79 wrote: »

By the way I'm the production manager for this company! We do have a clock card system and I do clock in and out for work and also I have to clock out for breaks, if not I get e-mails from the HR manager and a note goes on my employee file. What I normally do is clock out, go back to work, then clock back in 15 mins later. I generally don't take breaks as I'm always being called and paged to deal with issues so I just grab a bite to eat at my desk when I can. If I miss a break and don't clock for it the HR manager inputs a break on the clock card system for me anyway. Regardless of how many hours I accrue on the clock card system I still don't get any extra holiday hours of time in lieu.

that is a breach of the working time act - they are supposed to keep an accurate record of breaks taken, but in fact they are amending these records in their favour. However there is a level of responsibility on you also - when you are on a break you should take it so you should respond to calls and pages by saying you are on a break. Management will never provide adequate cover for you and your breaks if you continue to work when you are officially on a break.

I would be having a frank yet professional chat with HR and not be afraid to point out that you could report them for amending the working hours record in this manner. Point out that while you are happy to be flexible, that there is a limit, and 62 hour weeks exceeds this limit. As long as you do it without complaint, they will continue to let you. You need to be firm but fair on this.

AnonoBoy

Little Ted wrote: »

no they don't - there is no legal requirement to pay sick pay

I would have thought though that if someone is on a salary as opposed to being paid an hourly/daily wage then there's a certain amount of sick days allowed.

I certainly have never worked in a salary job that docked me money for days off sick.

Although maybe I just had a decent contract.

tatli_lokma

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I would have thought though that if someone is on a salary as opposed to being paid an hourly/daily wage then there's a certain amount of sick days allowed.

I certainly have never worked in a salary job that docked me money for days off sick.

Although maybe I just had a decent contract.

Its at the descretion of the employer as to what they include as a benefit to sick pay in your contract, but there is no legal obligation to give paid sick leave to any employee, salaried or otherwise. This is why there is such a furore at the moment about the governments plans to introduce mandatory sick pay. To do this could well put some SME's out of business and many employers feel that it will encourage abuse of the payment, and as such people will be more likely to phone in sick just cos they fancy a duvet day.

If you are off sick for 7 days or more, you can claim social welfare benefit. Most employers who DO pay sick leave request that you allocate this allowance to them and they in turn will then pay any balance on the SW payment so that you get the same amount as your normal wage. But again, this is entirely at the employers discretion.

Mrs OBumble

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I would have thought though that if someone is on a salary as opposed to being paid an hourly/daily wage then there's a certain amount of sick days allowed.

Well you would be wrong. As was pointed out, Ireland has no statutory minimum paid sick leave. Many contracts, hourly and salaried allow sick leave (ie permission to not be at work due to sickness) but not paid sick leave.

OP - what are job prospects like in your area -could you find another job? TBH, it doesn't sound like your current employer is great to work with.

In the meantime some of the advice given here would be fine if you were a line-worker. But you're not: you are the production manager - so start managing:

- have a conversation with HR about the hours you worked that week, and how you avoid doing hours like that in future and what they will do for your in the meantime

- start organising rosters so that proper cover (not just you backfilling) is available when people are off

- train and delegate so that you are able to take breaks.

AnonoBoy

Many contracts, hourly and salaried allow sick leave (ie permission to not be at work due to sickness) but not paid sick leave.

I'm confused on this sick leave vs. paid sick leave issue.

If someone is on a salary then they get their monthly wage and if they are allowed a few days sick leave then presumably that is paid sick leave, isn't it?

tatli_lokma

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I'm confused on this sick leave vs. paid sick leave issue.

If someone is on a salary then they get their monthly wage and if they are allowed a few days sick leave then presumably that is paid sick leave, isn't it?

:rolleyes: what's confusing?

if you are salaried, phone in sick and at the end of the month get your normal full wages, then your employer is agreeing to pay you whilst out sick. This will be clarified in your contract.

However there is no obligation on any employer to do this. Many salaried workers do find that after say a 2 or 3 days off sick their wages will be docked at the end of the month. Again, if the employer does not agree to pay you whilst out of work sick then this wil also be clear in your contract.

Furthermore, any time off sick currently is not reckonable towards your annual leave. So for example you get 20 days holidays per year, if you were off sick for 1 week, you would accrue 0.38 days less that month - the pro-rata amount of holidays for a week, you would only accrue for the 3 weeks you did work.

AnonoBoy

Little Ted wrote: »

:rolleyes: what's confusing?

The previous poster's statement on it was confusing. Your explanation is much clearer. Thanks.

No need for the condescending rolleyes though.

tatli_lokma

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The previous poster's statement on it was confusing. Your explanation is much clearer. Thanks.

No need for the condescending rolleyes though.

sorry dude, but the "condescending" roll eyes was because I can't see at all what is confusing or unclear about this statement. It wasn't intended to be "condescending" more so a general roll eyes due to the question being asked and answered twice.

JustMary wrote: »

Well you would be wrong. As was pointed out, Ireland has no statutory minimum paid sick leave. Many contracts, hourly and salaried allow sick leave (ie permission to not be at work due to sickness) but not paid sick leave.

AnonoBoy

Little Ted wrote: »

sorry dude, but the "condescending" roll eyes was because I can't see at all what is confusing or unclear about this statement.

Good for you. Obviously I found something unclear about the issue otherwise I wouldn't have asked.

But y'know, god help anyone asking questions in here, eh?


Anyways - OP. If it's the sort of situation where your contract is vague about what 'extra hours' entails then you need to sit down and get someone to agree to a number. Obviously a lot of people have to work extra hours unpaid now and then but an extra 20 in a week is just taking the p*ss. If it continues and you can't get an agreement from your employer's re: days in lieu or a limit on the amount of extra hours then I would think it's start to consider another job because you can't work indefinitely in a situation where you're being taken advantage of.

allibastor

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Good for you. Obviously I found something unclear about the issue otherwise I wouldn't have asked.

But y'know, god help anyone asking questions in here, eh?


Anyways - OP. If it's the sort of situation where your contract is vague about what 'extra hours' entails then you need to sit down and get someone to agree to a number. Obviously a lot of people have to work extra hours unpaid now and then but an extra 20 in a week is just taking the p*ss. If it continues and you can't get an agreement from your employer's re: days in lieu or a limit on the amount of extra hours then I would think it's start to consider another job because you can't work indefinitely in a situation where you're being taken advantage of.

Firstly, do we really need grammar nazis and people ere who think that because something they understand should be easy for all, I know a good bit about advanced robotics i think is easy, but most don't.


secondly, OP, as pointed out, you are at a, probably senior managers role in this company. Yet yo sound not able to fully work around your contract. I am going to presume you did not get your job on the old, my da runs the show gig. so as i have said before, have a read of your contract. the entitlements to sick pay should be there, and the claimant procedure for sick pay missed in the event, from social welfare or what not.

the contract should also clearly show what your working hours are, and when and if extra time should be put in place. if it is a very open ended contract where is all seems to be in favor of the company then i would request that they have broken an initial clause of the contract in working you beyond rest breaks and for tampering with your time card. simple as that

tatli_lokma

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Good for you. Obviously I found something unclear about the issue otherwise I wouldn't have asked.

But y'know, god help anyone asking questions in here, eh?

I've no problem with anyone asking a question....once!

Eoin

Let's move on please; it's been explained. This is why people shouldn't use that stupid rolleyes icon; it's incredibly annoying.

Skilgannon79

Thanks for all the advice folks, some more helpful than others, in particular those who have been so kind as to give me advice on how to run a factory they have no knowledge of and have never set foot in. Not one bit condescending. In conclusion on this matter I will say that I'm very familiar with my contract and it is very open ended and vague and in hindsight not something I should have accepted but my experience had been that if you work hard for someone they'll look after you, not if you work hard for someone they'll try and milk you for even more, and are perfectly entitled to do so since I signed the contract. It does wonders for morale I must say and it's not a mistake I'll be repeating. Now I know why every other person in my position left after one year!

I do have one final question based on the responses I've gotten. If I am clocking and the hours I work are being tracked do the extra hours I work accumulate any extra holiday entitlements?

allibastor

Skilgannon79 wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice folks, some more helpful than others, in particular those who have been so kind as to give me advice on how to run a factory they have no knowledge of and have never set foot in. Not one bit condescending. In conclusion on this matter I will say that I'm very familiar with my contract and it is very open ended and vague and in hindsight not something I should have accepted but my experience had been that if you work hard for someone they'll look after you, not if you work hard for someone they'll try and milk you for even more, and are perfectly entitled to do so since I signed the contract. It does wonders for morale I must say and it's not a mistake I'll be repeating. Now I know why every other person in my position left after one year!

I do have one final question based on the responses I've gotten. If I am clocking and the hours I work are being tracked do the extra hours I work accumulate any extra holiday entitlements?

Not unless you have it stated for in Lieu working times in your contract. Generally on salary you can be expected to work a bit longer for no extra pay or holidays, the flip side being that the company doesn't take money off you for small days missing or things like that. it is why a salary is meant to be paid in a common sense approach, i completely disagree with the idea of someone on salary using a clock in system unless it something to do with health and safety.

and also, if i may point out, any posts which say to read your contract are not meant to be condescending or anything, simply that we don't have access to what clauses or amendments were in it, so we can not give you very accurate answers. In my own contract of employment it states that i can use any time worked in an overtime function, multiply it by a factor of 1.5 and use that time for time off in Lieu. its a very specific condition as my job means i may be away for work or have to work in times to suit others, so i may have to do 12 hours on day, or travel 18 hours in a day. the holiday time then counts back for me so if i do 6 hours over time i get a day off