PROFICIENCY/SAFETY COURSE

Recoil12

Just a few questions regarding the course,1.Does this course cover you for competence in the use of a firearm when applying for a first time licence?2.Do you have to choose between rifle/shotgun when doing the course or are you covered for both?3.What price should be expected?4.Is there many places that offer the courses or is it only the NARGC?


Any answers are greatly appreciated.

Witcher

Recoil12 wrote: »

Just a few questions regarding the course,1.Does this course cover you for competence in the use of a firearm when applying for a first time licence?2.Do you have to choose between rifle/shotgun when doing the course or are you covered for both?3.What price should be expected?4.Is there many places that offer the courses or is it only the NARGC?


Any answers are greatly appreciated.

1. Yeah it covers you

2. You can do a shotgun or rifle course depending on what you want to get.

3. Depends where you go and how in depth it is, some people pay €30 to a RFD for 30 mins instruction and get a letter saying they're competent and on the other end of the scale, the NRA courses will cost €120 but will last the whole day and be very in depth.

Sparks

Recoil12 wrote: »

Just a few questions regarding the course,1.Does this course cover you for competence in the use of a firearm when applying for a first time licence?2.Do you have to choose between rifle/shotgun when doing the course or are you covered for both?3.What price should be expected?4.Is there many places that offer the courses or is it only the NARGC?
Any answers are greatly appreciated.

1. That depends on whether or not your Superintendent will accept it. There is no list of accepted courses in Ireland to meet the requirement for competence; you cannot just do a course and demand your Super accept it as meeting the requirement. The best course of action is to ask the Super what course he wants you to do if he wants you to do one.
   
   On that point, there is no legal requirement to do a course to meet the competency requirement, nor has there ever been any need for that. Courses are meant to be for new shooters; those who've been shooting before are generally covered by way of having had licences in the past.
   
2. Depends on the course, but most courses won't just show you one kind of firearm and sign off on you for another. And if they do, you probably don't want to trust the content of those courses very much.
   
3. That's a how-long-is-a-piece-of-string sort of question I'm afraid.
   
4. Yes, lots of places do courses like this, ranging from individuals to clubs to associations.

Recoil12

Thanks for the answers,cleared it up for me.

cavan shooter

In relation to the above I wish people would stop using the word competent to describe a training course it just isn't right.

It is crazy to think that there are some people out there running courses to facilitate the applicant to obtain a firearms certificate, lets be honest that is all that is happening because as stated a 30 minute course does not confer competency, but neither does a 1 week course or a 2 week course ar even a previous employment.

Competency has been defined as having the knowledge, training and experience to undertake a specific task it can be used as mentioned previously on various threads regarding the driving test, but also regarding all topics such as farming, not to mention occupations such as Doctors. The question one has to ask ourselves is what are the training courses trying to do?

Are you trying to take a new shooter and turn him into a competent shooter? If the answer is Yes, then its impossible, as a major part of competence is experience and a new shooter doesn't have that.

You are taking a new shooter and imparting knowledge and training to make him a safe shot to give him confidence and a knowledge to allow him/her to get experience to learn to become a competent shot then you have it in one.

You can't look at competence as just training, its applying that training and getting the experience that allows you to become competent same way as experience alone would never make someone competent. I knew plenty of experienced fitters with missing fingers in my day..

I don't necessarily accept the "I was in the services therefore I am competent to shoot firearms mentality either" A good friend of mine was over from America, this guy did two tours in Vietnam and retired out of the services in the 90s after the 1st Gulf war he had a permit for consealed carry/open carry and knew rifles and pistols inside out, yet when shooting pheasants one day he managed to discharge my Beretta Semi Auto accidentally when he crossed a ditch" luckily no one or dog was hurt but in it there is a lesson

After he changed his underpants and we sat there wondering what happened he piped up with "I'm not used to these type of guns" adding I only ever shoot with a double" So learning from that experience Competence is all very relative. There is a flaw in the system as it stands you cannot get a firearm cert unless you have gained a minimum knowledge, the problem is that people think that minimum knowledge is all you need.

Sparks

cavan shooter wrote: »

In relation to the above I wish people would stop using the word competent to describe a training course it just isn't right.

Thing is, the original word was "proficiency".
Which would have been much worse. "Competent" just means "can shoot safely", while "proficient" meant "can shoot well", which was a whole other can of worms.

But I think you're confusing the two slightly. "Competent" doesn't mean "can't make mistakes". For example, you can have a driving licence, do advanced driving courses, have years of experience and still manage to get into an RTA. Doesn't mean you're incompetent.

So all "competent" means for the Firearms Act is that the person has at least been shown how to shoot safely, that they're not just buying a firearm and wandering off to a field with a box of ammo, a smile, and no idea whatsoever about how either works or the ways in which either can be dangerous to themselves or others.

In fact, you can fulfill the competency requirement completely legitimately by stating that you're buying the firearm to learn how to use it safely under direction from someone else; that's how it's always happened for target shooting and how it ideally happened for hunting (with 1-on-1 instruction). Hell, that's the whole basis of the training licence.

cookimonster

As usual there are some very valid points here, but there is always the risk of over complicating the process , training licenses for all new applications can led to log books, accompanied sessions, mandatory range / club membership, increase of costs etc, all of which are typical of our societies knee jerk reaction.
Our driving lience system has its flaws even when one passes thier test certification only ensures the minimum skills and knowledge needed to do so, experience and application are the great teachers.
The new requirement as laid out on fire arms applications form is a damn sight better then the previous one, which was none. I have, as many here have, met that person who obviously had no clue about fire arms in a field doing things with rifles and shotguns that make you weak at the knees. By the way I knew some of the RFD,s who could name some of the (clowns is not PC) untrained newbees by thier guns because they so easily stuck in ones mind. Not a good thing.
I have done several courses and it is amazing to discover what you don,t actually know or what you taught is wrong. I agree that 30 mins in a RFD back room is not enough but a well run day long course with a proper mix of theroy and practical with strong emphasis on safty is a positive step forward.

cavan shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is, the original word was "proficiency".
Which would have been much worse. "Competent" just means "can shoot safely", while "proficient" meant "can shoot well", which was a whole other can of worms.

But I think you're confusing the two slightly. "Competent" doesn't mean "can't make mistakes". For example, you can have a driving licence, do advanced driving courses, have years of experience and still manage to get into an RTA. Doesn't mean you're incompetent.

So all "competent" means for the Firearms Act is that the person has at least been shown how to shoot safely, that they're not just buying a firearm and wandering off to a field with a box of ammo, a smile, and no idea whatsoever about how either works or the ways in which either can be dangerous to themselves or others.

In fact, you can fulfill the competency requirement completely legitimately by stating that you're buying the firearm to learn how to use it safely under direction from someone else; that's how it's always happened for target shooting and how it ideally happened for hunting (with 1-on-1 instruction). Hell, that's the whole basis of the training licence.

The use of the word proof of competence in relation to firearms applications will sooner or later come back to haunt the Gardai. They used it without defining it clearly what needs to be done to be deemed competent.

My reading of it and from experience, a piece of paper doesn't mean the end of it. They threw the word in there without even following through with a determination of what needs to be done to prove competence. The guidelines or Act doesn't even determine the contents of the "course that gives Competency" what achievements need to be reached, what marks to pass etc (70%, 80% or 40%).
Most importantly we don't have recognition from the shooting community (peers) in relation to what courses are deemed acceptable as prove of competence.

Next time a lad asks which course should I do for "Competency" NARGC or NRA style watch the responses, that come back as various persons start peeing competitions. Without clear "Maps" to competency defined by the PTB with input from the Shooting organisations it will be 2 senior counsels and a Judge that will determine who was competent or who wasn't.

As for the example of driving aspect of it and RTA depends on the circumstances of the accident and if you acted recklessly. The day you act recklessly or make a decision that leads to a dangerous situation occurring, (with full facts known) you are not competent.

Mike87

cavan shooter wrote: »

In relation to the above I wish people would stop using the word competent to describe a training course it just isn't right.

It is crazy to think that there are some people out there running courses to facilitate the applicant to obtain a firearms certificate, lets be honest that is all that is happening because as stated a 30 minute course does not confer competency, but neither does a 1 week course or a 2 week course ar even a previous employment.

Competency has been defined as having the knowledge, training and experience to undertake a specific task it can be used as mentioned previously on various threads regarding the driving test, but also regarding all topics such as farming, not to mention occupations such as Doctors. The question one has to ask ourselves is what are the training courses trying to do?

Are you trying to take a new shooter and turn him into a competent shooter? If the answer is Yes, then its impossible, as a major part of competence is experience and a new shooter doesn't have that.

You are taking a new shooter and imparting knowledge and training to make him a safe shot to give him confidence and a knowledge to allow him/her to get experience to learn to become a competent shot then you have it in one.

You can't look at competence as just training, its applying that training and getting the experience that allows you to become competent same way as experience alone would never make someone competent. I knew plenty of experienced fitters with missing fingers in my day..

I don't necessarily accept the "I was in the services therefore I am competent to shoot firearms mentality either" A good friend of mine was over from America, this guy did two tours in Vietnam and retired out of the services in the 90s after the 1st Gulf war he had a permit for consealed carry/open carry and knew rifles and pistols inside out, yet when shooting pheasants one day he managed to discharge my Beretta Semi Auto accidentally when he crossed a ditch" luckily no one or dog was hurt but in it there is a lesson

After he changed his underpants and we sat there wondering what happened he piped up with "I'm not used to these type of guns" adding I only ever shoot with a double" So learning from that experience Competence is all very relative. There is a flaw in the system as it stands you cannot get a firearm cert unless you have gained a minimum knowledge, the problem is that people think that minimum knowledge is all you need.

I think you are reading too much into it. As Sparks has said, the competency courses are more to say "this guy can be trusted to safely load, break-down, clean etc a double barrel shotgun" and not "this guy will give Tom Knapp a run for his money"

But I do strongly agree with you on RFD's giving these courses. I would have no problems if they would run them properly, but when the entire "course" is less then 20 minutes (and even faster if there is customers waiting) I have to wonder about it.

cavan shooter

Mike87 wrote: »

I think you are reading too much into it. As Sparks has said, the competency courses are more to say "this guy can be trusted to safely load, break-down, clean etc a double barrel shotgun" and not "this guy will give Tom Knapp a run for his money"

But I do strongly agree with you on RFD's giving these courses. I would have no problems if they would run them properly, but when the entire "course" is less then 20 minutes (and even faster if there is customers waiting) I have to wonder about it.

I maybe am but....:o
But even in the scouts you had to work to get a badge

BattleCorp

Harbour House down in Athy often do NRA accredited rifle and pistol courses. I did the NRA rifle course a while back and it was €150 for a two day course.

As has been already said, the Gardai don't have to accept it as proof of competency/proficiency etc etc but it's one of the most structured courses out there. If the Super won't accept it, I don't know what would keep him happy.

If you want info on when their next course is on, give them a shout.

www.harbourhouseshooting.com