What do golf clubs need to do to survive the recession?

golfwallah

Judging from recent club closures and conversations with other club golfers, quite a few clubs are still experiencing a rough time financially.

Care to guess from which club website, period, membership restrictions and event the following came from:

had approximately 1,500 members. The onset of the depression created great financial hardship. As many members withdrew, the club waived initiation fees, lowered dues, instituted fundraising events, launched golf tournaments, and soon thereafter eliminated the requirement that only xxxxxxxx could join. <Event> brought more economic misfortune and the club’s membership dropped far below capacity. Course #2 was closed, and for a time members helped maintain the other two courses. The end of <event> brought slow but stable economic recovery, new hope, and gradual growth in the club’s membership.

No, not an Irish club in past or recent years, but Medinah, venue for this year’s Ryder Cup ...... the period ..... the late 1920’s ........ xxxxxxxx = Shriners ....... ...... Event = WW2.

Undoubtedly there are differences, but the one common denominator is financial downturn. And the above shows that even an established prosperous club like Medinah had to implement significant changes to ensure survival and better times.

Would be interesting to hear if Irish clubs are doing enough to get through this current period and peoples’ views of how many of the approximately 420 registered R.O.I. clubs will eventually survive.

PRAF

As a wise man once said, "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change."

Those clubs who embrace change will do well, those that are slow to change may not. A number of clubs out there are reviewing their products, re-pricing them to suit the market, looking after existing members better, lowering costs, and getting better at marketing. I think that is the way to go, especially in areas where there are more golf courses than there is demand for golf.

cunnifferous

I know many clubs have reduced prices but I think a lot could do a bit better. Golf club fees were probably more inflated than property prices so I think there's still a lot of way to go yet. Something else would be encouraging people to spend more money on food and drink in the club house, maybe by having free taxi to pick up and drop off members living in the locality. I think, like ghost estates, many golf clubs were built in areas without the necessary demand to sustain them and so will just have to simply go under.

Sleepy

Speaking not as a golfer but a business graduate and regular barman in a different sporting club the best asset most clubs have for surviving is their clubhouse. Pints can be sold far below the price-point that a bar operating as a business has to charge, they can be staffed by volunteers from within the club (or older juniors on low wages who just want some bar experience to help them get part-time jobs when they head off to college) and with a bit of effort can be turned into a great local for members.

Encouraging members to hold their significant events (anniversaries, christenings, milestone birthdays etc) in the club bar is straightforward enough: find a reasonably priced caterer / offer free cocktail sausages and chicken nuggets etc. and make it known to members that their support for the bar helps subsidise the club and keep dues down.

Done properly, and assuming a member can be found to manage the bar rather than a full-time employee (perhaps a senior member who's retired as is the case in our club), I believe a well-run bar could contribute six figure sums to the club.

Bruno26

Do any clubs offer for example 3-4 day membership? To play sat or sun it seems you must have full membership- could 3 or 5 or any number of days include one of the weekend days? 5 day much better value but when working not much point if you cannot play one of weekend days

elberry

I know a few longstanding clubs that spent/borrowed recklessly in the last decade and are struggling to even pay the interest on their borrowings, those clubs deserve to be shut down, some committee members getting totally carried away with spending that had no basis on the reality of their income. If they made borrowings there were never going to repay they should be dealt with as harshly as any other business.

cunnifferous

I've heard of some golf clubs being taken over by NAMA and then undercutting all the other local golf clubs. The same situation that has arisen with many hotels across the country.

staker

Sleepy wrote: »

Speaking not as a golfer but a business graduate and regular barman in a different sporting club the best asset most clubs have for surviving is their clubhouse. Pints can be sold far below the price-point that a bar operating as a business has to charge, they can be staffed by volunteers from within the club (or older juniors on low wages who just want some bar experience to help them get part-time jobs when they head off to college) and with a bit of effort can be turned into a great local for members.

Encouraging members to hold their significant events (anniversaries, christenings, milestone birthdays etc) in the club bar is straightforward enough: find a reasonably priced caterer / offer free cocktail sausages and chicken nuggets etc. and make it known to members that their support for the bar helps subsidise the club and keep dues down.

Done properly, and assuming a member can be found to manage the bar rather than a full-time employee (perhaps a senior member who's retired as is the case in our club), I believe a well-run bar could contribute six figure sums to the club.

Good post.

Very hard to find a reasonably priced caterer in this climate as caterers know the difficulties faced by clubs.
A local club tendered three local caterers which all came back extortionately priced within the same price frame, even though all services (lights,electricity,kitchen) were being provided by the club.

Not too sure it's the way as regards bar food goes.

mike12

Hi,
A lot of clubs seem to be in trouble because of the loans they are trying to finance but most would are turning a profit when you take that away, all the NAMA courses are doing well because they have priced the golf in them at a now reasonable price.
I think the first thing you will see closing in clubs is the Bar and restaurant if you need to add on a couple of hundred to the membership to keep it open each year is it really worth it. The days of people going in for a couple of pints after a round are gone so it's very hard to justify in a lot of clubs that are out of the way.
There will be a lot more of the life style type of memberships where you pay a small amount up front and pay x amount every time you play. The guys that are/were members paying 1000 plus a year who only played 6/7 times a year are the first to give up membership if they only had to pay 200 up front and 20 quid every time they played they would be more likely to hang around or rejoin.
The one thing that could suffer but i hope it doesn't is the interclub stuff, I'd say it is one of the big expenses especially if a club has a good run in a couple of comps, I’ve heard of clubs spending over a hundred thousand in a year.
Mike

Sleepy

staker, they need to open the tender process a little wider I think. Or perhaps allow those booking the bar for functions to arrange their own caterers? There's a pretty wide variety out there in terms of catering for events, though admittedly, the difference can be clearly seen in the standard of the food provided.

The_Architect

Interesting that none of you focus on the course itself. A good course with cheaper maintenance models and an inclusive and innovative attitude towards women and junior members is where I'd like to see us head.

To this end, we need to see some courses close and we need to see some others renovate in a sustainable fashion to improve their product.

The catering / clubhouse side is not my speciality but I do know that many of them are white elephants and the major loss makers at clubs. In my opinion, we need to make golf simpler (in presentation) and more sociable.

PRAF

The_Architect wrote: »

Interesting that none of you focus on the course itself. A good course with cheaper maintenance models and an inclusive and innovative attitude towards women and junior members is where I'd like to see us head.

To this end, we need to see some courses close and we need to see some others renovate in a sustainable fashion to improve their product.

The catering / clubhouse side is not my speciality but I do know that many of them are white elephants and the major loss makers at clubs. In my opinion, we need to make golf simpler (in presentation) and more sociable.

Would be interested to hear what some of the pitfalls are from a course design / maintenance perspective. Can clubs use better design to cut maintenance costs while keeping a high standard of course and an appropriate level of course challenge (in terms of bunkers, water hazards, rough, etc.). Who's doing this well and who is doing it poorly?

The_Architect

PRAF wrote: »

Would be interested to hear what some of the pitfalls are from a course design / maintenance perspective. Can clubs use better design to cut maintenance costs while keeping a high standard of course and an appropriate level of course challenge (in terms of bunkers, water hazards, rough, etc.). Who's doing this well and who is doing it poorly?

There's many, many things that can be done but I'll just give one specific example relevant to the initial post (1920's Medinah), the depression in the 1930's US saw a large number of courses close and a large number renovated with costs in mind. One of the most time-consuming activities (and hence biggest costs) for a greenkeeping crew is bunker maintenance. Modern courses in this country by and large have acres and acres of sand. In general terms, I'm a firm believer in less bunkers that are better placed. Tillinghast was hired in the 30's by the USPGA to travel the country and advise courses where bunkers could be closed & altered. It was a worthwhile priority. But different bunker styles and presentation in general have different demands on labour time and this should always be considered in design & construction.

People have to be innovative in their thinking. I'm convinced / know that there are many courses in Ireland that can be improved in challenge & style whilst at the same time reducing their maintenance costs.

Design aside, clubs / GUI / everyone HAVE to focus on introducing kids to the sport as the number one priority.

MisterAnarchy

The_Architect wrote: »

Interesting that none of you focus on the course itself. A good course with cheaper maintenance models and an inclusive and innovative attitude towards women and junior members is where I'd like to see us head.

To this end, we need to see some courses close and we need to see some others renovate in a sustainable fashion to improve their product.

The catering / clubhouse side is not my speciality but I do know that many of them are white elephants and the major loss makers at clubs. In my opinion, we need to make golf simpler (in presentation) and more sociable.

Good post and I agree completely.
The course is the number one asset .
Most courses need to reduce their bloated administrative and maintenance costs which spiralled exponentially out of control during the boom.

The estimated average cost of operating a golf club in 2009 was €990,000.
The equivalent figure in 1999 was €266,000 (in 2009 prices) which indicates that costs had risen by 270% in just over a decade.

Most clubhouse bars/restaurants are loss makers and deserted/closed during the winter months.
The drink driving laws have destroyed clubs drink revenues.

More voluntary work does need to be done by members to help run the clubs .
The days of paying huge wages to managers are long gone .
Clubs seemed to function just fine without them for decades.

ssbob

For me I see three area's that clubs need to focus on:

1. Course - A well maintained course will bring a lot of green fee revenue and please the members but that doesn't mean you have to have water hazards and sand traps on every hole, for instance run off area's are just as tricky as most greenside bunkers.
   • Good example of run off area's being well used in my experience is Castlemartyr
   • Bad example of over use of bunkers/water/acres is Palmerstown, no wonder the course is in trouble.
2. Clubhouse - I do reckon you need a decent clubhouse with good changing facilities & value for money in the bar. The clubhouse does not need to be state of the art but needs to maintained all the time with locker rooms regularly cleaned, personally I would have no hassle lending an hour or two a week to my own club to help clean up the clubhouse if it meant the place was presented better to visitors. As mentioned above with some good pricing and a basic menu you can run the clubhouse bar very cheap and it's all about encouraging members to use the facilities.
   • Good example of a decent clubhouse and facilities is Waterrock/Cork GC/Charleville
   • Bad Example of clubhouse is Cobh Golf Course, I understand it's a new course but in the current climate they are not maximising their revenue and people are going to get annoyed by the lack of a club feel.
3. People - I think this is by far the most important aspect of a club doing well or not. Far too often have we seen stories on Boards whereby people are having bad experiences with clubs. I see it all the time, you walk into the pro shop and the person barely acknowledges you. Also on and around the course, members have the onus of being polite and courteous to people whoa re paying green fee's as that is helping your club.
   • Good example of this is Dundrum GC in Tipp, every time I have been there, they nearly fell over me to help me out or welcome me, I reckon this comes from the family owned aspect.
   • Bad Examples Waterrock, Muskerry, Mitchelstown, Fermoy...................I could go on!

The GUI also have a role to play by promoting a wider unification of clubs and helping those in difficulty, not with finance but through expertise and advice.

Loving the discussion, keep it going.

PRAF

I'm not a golf architect by any means but one of the things that some clubs seem to have wasted money on is in trying to be something they are not.

The ultimate example IMO is probably somewhere like the Smurfit course in the K Club. Spending millions on a hole to make it look like there is some sort of disused quarry on the 7th hole was pure and utter madness.

Russman

Great thread and a really interesting discussion that hopefully might give ideas that clubs/people can bring to their own club's situation.

I think something that's maybe overlooked though is that with the changes in society in general over the last few years, there's probably 15 or 20 clubs too many in Dublin alone for the market as it stands. I expect/fear mergers will have to happen down the line eventually, good luck to two clubs trying to decide which course to use !!

The other thing is that members need to realise that they can't have perfect course conditions all the time if costs/staff numbers are being reduced. Its usually either a reduced sub and slightly lesser course conditioning or a perfect course but higher subs - very tricky to find that balance. A lot of people came to expect tour conditions everywhere after they had a few rounds on the marquee courses back in the tiger days and that expectation isn't/hasn't always helped "normal" clubs.

Great idea about removing some bunkers - simple and would save a lot of maintenance time.

Local clubs sharing/pooling expensive equipment is also worth exploring, but, as someone said earlier, a change of mindset would be required.

ryaner777

Played Margaret’s the other day and we had an experience that I've never had in any other course. Please remember we are 4 young lads and not members of any course and probably strike the fear of god into members when we show up to play their course.

There was a fog delay last Wednesday morning and about 20 people waiting to get out onto the course. While on the putting green the club pro approached the four of us and asked us some general golfing questions, eg handicap , local club etc

He then spent about 20 minutes giving us a hole by hole description on the course and how to approach each hole and score best on it.

We played the back nine first because of the delay and after nine holes he seen us approaching the first, he came over to us again, asked us how we were getting on and then gave us a refresher guide to the front nine again.

he gave us some loyalty cards that we can claim for a free round and let us on our way.

Cracking customer service and this will be a major factor on what courses survive and which don't and I couldn't recommend them highly enough after this experience.

Golfgraffix

Great thread and some very clever ideas, many course managers could do a lot worse than pop in here, it's a great barometer of what the average golfer is thinking.

On tillinghurst there is a great biography on him called image TILLINGHAST Creator of Golf Courses, well worth a read.

Speaking as someone in the marketing end of the industry, I think that it is one area that is over looked. Irish clubs spend less than 1% of revenue on marketing, that is way behind the average for other sports/ leisure industries.

I think many committee run clubs forget that they are selling a brand and in the case of some of the older established clubs it is a strong brand built on years of supplying a quality product. Off the top of my head I can name 10 great courses that are looking to fill empty mid week slots but in general the message is not getting out there. Each club is different but most will have a recurring quite day or two each (depending on what mid week competitions they have.) the hotel industry have long addressed this and deal with quite times by adopting a yield management system, golf clubs need to look at this.

I think the biggest issue to face clubs has still not fully come to the fore and that is attracting what the GUI and other unions refer to as the lost/forgotten generation. I was looking at some UK figures today that showed the average age of a club golfer to be 58. There are quite a number of clubs where the average age is higher.

I would agree that a number of clubs need to close, there is too much capacity in golf here, unless the numbers of golfers increases and clubs sell smarter the only way clubs of same quality can differentiate themsleves will be by price, which is only a short term fix and will just lead to a race to the bottom.

J

arch staunton

Distance membership is what is causing clubs most damage in my opinion.Joining a club for 100/150e just to keep your handicap and play open weeks .
I see a club advertising golf on a friday for a fiver ,another club had an open singles on a bank holiday weekend for 11e.



The biggest problem with this, is the cheaper green fees become the more people will leave clubs and take up this type of membership.

Creasy_bear

what do they need to do to survive? ........stop ripping people off with green fees. My auld lad played two rounds in tullamore at the weekend and a nights stay in some hotel down there.....€120.

We played one round in adare on saturday......tee boxes not cut & covered in sand. Some of the greens were shocking. €80

Never again.

cackhanded

Creasy_bear wrote: »

We played one round in adare on saturday......tee boxes not cut & covered in sand. Some of the greens were shocking. €80

Never again.

They have few members and are very inflexible on green fee rates - can't see a long term future for the course with it's current business model. Shame, as it's great to have such a top-class track on my doorstep.

golfwallah

Most club members just want to play golf and are not at all interested in the business side of the club, goings on at committee or club politics. And this is understandable.

Moreover, none of us like change and committees are no different. So, the natural order of things is to keep going from one AGM to the next, like the committee before and change very little.

This approach is all very well when finances are healthy and there is little change in the business environment from year to year. But we are living through tough economic times right now with billions being taken out of the economy. The evidence of a shrinking golf market and more intense competition for fewer and fewer customers is all round us. Posters on this thread have put forward a number of good ideas that are worthy of consideration.

But, committees, when all is said and done, are comprised of volunteers, who may or may not have the skills in marketing, product development, change / project management, etc. required to deal with more discerning customers, seeking better value for money. In better times, committees only had to copy what was done before and, at year-end, report to the members. At AGMs, the financial results and plans were almost taken as read and the biggest cause for concern was golf stuff, like a bit of GUR around the course, demands for better marking of water hazards, calls for different competition formats, etc. There was no need to “rock the boat”.

The recession is forcing clubs to break the mould and depart from the “status quo”. It has also brought the need for good management skills to the fore – not just to deal with business a usual but to handle a financial situation in which previous assumptions regarding the old business model no longer apply. Some of these issues are covered in the 2009 joint GUI / PGA publication “Promoting Golf Club Membership” (click attachment to view).

These issues need to be addressed at committee level and then socialised more broadly among the members, so that clubs can develop response strategies and bring members along with them.

Would be interesting to hear what other people think.

staker

Good point Golfwallah on the potential of a lot of committees up and down the country as regards their capability to run what is in essence a business.
How can it be ensured that their skillset would include all that comes with the day to day of a golf club, when most if not all would have transcended from a regular member to a member of the committee? A bit of the ol' irish political "shur he's a grand fella" mentality I think.
Not saying it's their fault and I offer no alternatives as I'd much prefer see heart from a member than figures from a pro.

I'm surprised and disappointed at the list of clubs you mentioned in your post ssbob, I genuinely got a warm reception at my own club when I joined(you know who I mean), I'd like to think I would give any visitor or non-member a salute and a beck if I saw them pull up. I've seen umpteen instances in the clubhouse where a warm welcome has been extended. Correct me if I'm wrong- I may have the aul rose tinted glasses on.

Sleepy I hear you're concerns and would love to know what the ultimate answer to running a clubhouse is. There are a few good deals around Munster(only cos I know) as regards golf/grub which I imagine have got to be paying off-look at the Gold Coast,€15 round,€25 with carvery-their business has got to involve an outside caterer I'd imagine. Other than that diversify and hold a rock concert on the 18th:eek:

ssbob

staker wrote: »

I'm surprised and disappointed at the list of clubs you mentioned in your post ssbob, I genuinely got a warm reception at my own club when I joined(you know who I mean), I'd like to think I would give any visitor or non-member a salute and a beck if I saw them pull up. I've seen umpteen instances in the clubhouse where a warm welcome has been extended. Correct me if I'm wrong- I may have the aul rose tinted glasses on.

To be fair I have had 3 different experiences at the club but the one that stands out is the bad one unfortunately. In saying that I constantly go back there due to the fact it is my home-town club.

GreeBo

There needs to be less of them basically.

In my opinion the country cannot support the current number of "Tour Quality Championship" courses. They are all competing with each other for fewer and fewer clients and reduced fees but with increasing costs. they dont have a broad membership base to keep them going. All of this coupled with the cutprice deals from the NAMA courses means they are in big trouble.

The vast majority of golf played in Ireland should be members playing in their own courses week in and week out. This keeps these courses going. Throw in a couple of the exclusive resort clubs around the country for the couple of times a year you want to splash out and/or tourists and you have a model that works in this economic climate.

Having a situation where you have the likes of Luttresltown and Castleknock next door to each other is just silly and not sustainable.

Jazzzman

they need to put the ball where I want it go

lots of good deals on golf clubs during the recession

am i right folks?

The_Architect

Without wanting to bore, here's a quick entirely hypothetical example:

Course A: Built on good draining soil using native fescues and meadow grasses. Minimal earth moving needed (50k m3), 50 medium sized bunkers built with natural edges and placed well, some land drainage put in on greens which are push-up (i.e. non-USGA) and one or two lower lying fairways, native vegetation encouraged to thrive on all areas more than 10m in to the rough including natural collection areas for water. Irrigation installed on greens and tees only, used very sparingly. No trees or decorative vegetation planted. Good, clever, varied design. Basic but comfortable, small clubhouse.

Construction cost (course only): €750k
Maintenance crew: 3 to 4 (€125k per annum)
Maintenance materials & plant: €125k per annum
Eventual rating: Top-50 in Ireland

Course B: Built on wet farmland. Entire site re-seeded using bent grass on greens & tees. Large earth moving needed (1,000k m3) to create mounding and large shapes, 120 large sized bunkers built with clean and long wavy edges, primary & secondary drainage put in throughout course using surface and sub-surface techniques. Large greens (averaging 800m2) which are pure bent and will be cut to 2.5mm. Full USGA construction. Wall-to-wall irrigation installed throughout course. 50,000 young saplings planted with some more mature trees. Landscape budget for decorative planting. Cart paths installed round entire course. Design conservative. Large clubhouse with all mod-cons.

Construction cost (course only): €7m
Maintenance crew: 18 (€500k per annum)
Maintenance materials & plant: €500k per annum

Eventual rating: Top-50 in Ireland

mag

very interesting. i certinaly wouldnt have thought it possible to build a course for 750k!

ssbob

The_Architect wrote: »

Without wanting to bore, here's a quick entirely hypothetical example:

Course A: Built on good draining soil using native fescues and meadow grasses. Minimal earth moving needed (50k m3), 50 medium sized bunkers built with natural edges and placed well, some land drainage put in on greens which are push-up (i.e. non-USGA) and one or two lower lying fairways, native vegetation encouraged to thrive on all areas more than 10m in to the rough including natural collection areas for water. Irrigation installed on greens and tees only, used very sparingly. No trees or decorative vegetation planted. Good, clever, varied design. Basic but comfortable, small clubhouse.

Construction cost (course only): €750k
Maintenance crew: 3 to 4 (€125k per annum)
Maintenance materials & plant: €125k per annum
Eventual rating: Top-50 in Ireland

Course B: Built on wet farmland. Entire site re-seeded using bent grass on greens & tees. Large earth moving needed (1,000k m3) to create mounding and large shapes, 120 large sized bunkers built with clean and long wavy edges, primary & secondary drainage put in throughout course using surface and sub-surface techniques. Large greens (averaging 800m2) which are pure bent and will be cut to 2.5mm. Full USGA construction. Wall-to-wall irrigation installed throughout course. 50,000 young saplings planted with some more mature trees. Landscape budget for decorative planting. Cart paths installed round entire course. Design conservative. Large clubhouse with all mod-cons.

Construction cost (course only): €7m
Maintenance crew: 18 (€500k per annum)
Maintenance materials & plant: €500k per annum

Eventual rating: Top-50 in Ireland

Do you have experience in this field or just pulling figures from thin air?

WHIP IT!

ryaner777 wrote: »

Played Margaret’s the other day and we had an experience that I've never had in any other course. Please remember we are 4 young lads and not members of any course and probably strike the fear of god into members when we show up to play their course.

There was a fog delay last Wednesday morning and about 20 people waiting to get out onto the course. While on the putting green the club pro approached the four of us and asked us some general golfing questions, eg handicap , local club etc

He then spent about 20 minutes giving us a hole by hole description on the course and how to approach each hole and score best on it.

We played the back nine first because of the delay and after nine holes he seen us approaching the first, he came over to us again, asked us how we were getting on and then gave us a refresher guide to the front nine again.

he gave us some loyalty cards that we can claim for a free round and let us on our way.

Cracking customer service and this will be a major factor on what courses survive and which don't and I couldn't recommend them highly enough after this experience.

Well said regarding St Margaret's. I have played the Wednesday Open there several times over the past year or two and you always receive a warm welcome, loyalty card etc. In fact, played it a few months back with two pals and not only got the loyalty card stamped but we were each given a sleeve of Titleist NXT balls... very very welcome they were too!

Personally, a friendly face and a bit of mannerly chat makes a big difference to me anywhere - nothing rubs ya up the wrong way than handing over some of your hard-earned to a miserable grump with no manners who seems to resent the fact you're there in the first place.

The course at St Margaret's is fine - not as spectacular as it was in its heyday... but I'd always recommend if for the overall experience, location and value, personally.

The_Architect

ssbob wrote: »

Do you have experience in this field or just pulling figures from thin air?

It wouldn't be worth much if I was just pulling figures from thin air.

Yes I have experience. But as I said, it is a hypothetical example which is meant as a general guide to show how similarly good golf courses can be achieved in very different methods. These numbers are not specifics.

Dr_Colossus

GreeBo wrote: »

There needs to be less of them basically.

Having a situation where you have the likes of Luttresltown and Castleknock next door to each other is just silly and not sustainable.

Not necessarily if more people were encouraged to play, needs to be promoted at school and youth level to get the young and especially young girls playing. Generally the divide between the number of men and women playing the game is huge, needs to be alot more women involved.

Golf I think can be quite a difficult sport to get into, takes quite a big commitment to become good in terms of practice and mentality so the younger you start the easier it is to learn. Non golfers perception of the game has even higher barriers of entry in terms of the requirement for expensive clubs/equipment and membership to start. With better advertisements and education there could be alot more casual and club golfers.

Luttrellstown and Castleknock have Westmanstown and The Hermitage within an ass' roar also but that isn't creating great competition amongst them for members. I'd love to join Luttrellstown but they have less than a hundred members and are still looking for nearly €2,200 in annual subs, if they reduced that to about €1,500 and got numbers up around 400 I'd join in the morning. Castleknock of the 4 mentioned clubs in close proximity appears to be the only club actively seeking members with various different options available and signs by the place always seems very busy.

The_Architect

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Not necessarily if more people were encouraged to play, needs to be promoted at school and youth level to get the young and especially young girls playing. Generally the divide between the number of men and women playing the game is huge, needs to be alot more women involved.

Golf I think can be quite a difficult sport to get into, takes quite a big commitment to become good in terms of practice and mentality so the younger you start the easier it is to learn. Non golfers perception of the game has even higher barriers of entry in terms of the requirement for expensive clubs/equipment and membership to start. With better advertisements and education there could be alot more casual and club golfers.

+1

There are three main barriers to growing the game by getting people started.

1. Cost
2. Length of time required to play a round
3. Difficult sport to learn

Although it isn't the first thing people think of, course design can have a direct impact on the first two of those.

It cannot just be a race to the bottom in terms of green fees. In many cases, clubs have to charge certain fees to meet their operating costs. Concentration should have been given at the outset to minimising those operating costs (see my previous post).

ssbob

The_Architect wrote: »

It wouldn't be worth much if I was just pulling figures from thin air.

Yes I have experience. But as I said, it is a hypothetical example which is meant as a general guide to show how similarly good golf courses can be achieved in very different methods. These numbers are not specifics.

Thanks, I was not trying to be patronising but this is something I am very interested in. From what I have been told an average golf course spends approx €60k a year on sand so that is why I questioned your figure of €125k for maintenance & materials.

The_Architect wrote: »

+1

There are three main barriers to growing the game by getting people started.

1. Cost
2. Length of time required to play a round
3. Difficult sport to learn

Although it isn't the first thing people think of, course design can have a direct impact on the first two of those.

It cannot just be a race to the bottom in terms of green fees. In many cases, clubs have to charge certain fees to meet their operating costs. Concentration should have been given at the outset to minimising those operating costs (see my previous post).

Case and point is Palmerstown, round took us more than 5 1/2 hours there recently and it was partly down to slow play but mainly down to distance between the greens and the next tee.

If they do go about introducing the bigger ball so that it won't travel as far then that will help a lot of golf courses.

WHIP IT!

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Not necessarily if more people were encouraged to play, needs to be promoted at school and youth level to get the young and especially young girls playing. Generally the divide between the number of men and women playing the game is huge, needs to be alot more women involved.

Golf I think can be quite a difficult sport to get into, takes quite a big commitment to become good in terms of practice and mentality so the younger you start the easier it is to learn. Non golfers perception of the game has even higher barriers of entry in terms of the requirement for expensive clubs/equipment and membership to start. With better advertisements and education there could be alot more casual and club golfers.

Luttrellstown and Castleknock have Westmanstown and The Hermitage within an ass' roar also but that isn't creating great competition amongst them for members. I'd love to join Luttrellstown but they have less than a hundred members and are still looking for nearly €2,200 in annual subs, if they reduced that to about €1,500 and got numbers up around 400 I'd join in the morning. Castleknock of the 4 mentioned clubs in close proximity appears to be the only club actively seeking members with various different options available and signs by the place always seems very busy.

Luttrellstown appears to be a course living in denial of the realities of the current climate.

Like you said, €2000+VAT and they have very few members. They should drop it to a grand+VAT and watch them queue at the door!

I've played it several times in the past couple of years, always midweek, and have often had a chat with the chap who seems to be running the place (South African, maybe? Nice chap) and the amount of times he's said "oh yes, we're doing very well, very busy today" etc etc... only for my pal and me to play 18 holes without seeing another group of golfers from first tee to 18th green! I've called requesting (for example) an 8.0am tee time and been told "em, we can give you 8.18?" etc... No problem, that'll do... then you get there and don't see another sinner in the place?? Um, where are the people who had the tee box from 8.0 to 8.18??

Like I said, whole place seems to be in denial...

The_Architect

ssbob wrote: »

Thanks, I was not trying to be patronising but this is something I am very interested in. From what I have been told an average golf course spends approx €60k a year on sand so that is why I questioned your figure of €125k for maintenance & materials.

That's OK. I didn't take it as such. I haven't worked directly in course management so my maintenance figures are ballpark but I do have detailed breakdowns also.

My examples give two ends of the scale but there were far more courses developed in the last 15 years that sit around that top end. These courses were unsustainable ego-trips in some cases. They were built to make short-term profit from the property bubble with no long term consideration.

Freemount09

ssbob wrote: »

To be fair I have had 3 different experiences at the club but the one that stands out is the bad one unfortunately. In saying that I constantly go back there due to the fact it is my home-town club.

It is a pity, but only human, that the bad experience is the one that stands out ! That's why its important for everyone connected with a club (employees and members) to be friendly and courteous to everyone else, especially visitors !

I was out last weekend with 3 visitors to my course, on the first tee-box an old retired member, came out and thanked them for comming to play and wished them the best and enjoy the round. They thought it was a nice touch and I know they went home with a good feeling about the club and planning a return visit ! I think he made all the difference, and know they would go out of their way to play there again because of him.

GreeBo

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Not necessarily if more people were encouraged to play, needs to be promoted at school and youth level to get the young and especially young girls playing. Generally the divide between the number of men and women playing the game is huge, needs to be alot more women involved.

More people being encouraged to play and join member courses.
There are loads of people who are happy to play society golf, not join a club and play in NAMA courses for buttons. This is doing nothing for the game of golf in Ireland long term.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

More people being encouraged to play and join member courses.
There are loads of people who are happy to play society golf, not join a club and play in NAMA courses for buttons. This is doing nothing for the game of golf in Ireland long term.

Green Fees account for 17% of all golf revenue in Ireland, whilst I know green fees can come from a visiting members (from a club elsewhere), I am sure a high % of this comes from non affiliated golfers.
If this level of contribution continues at a steady rate, then I can't see how they are doing nothing for the game of golf in Ireland long term.

The best way to get more members into clubs is to get more people playing golf in the first place. The Soc & casual rounds route is the easiest way for someone to dip their toe into the golfing world.

Some will be happy to stay playing casual rounds & socs, I agree that these are not contributing as much as a member of a club, but in this day and age, any extra money into the game is valuable.
Others, like myself, will get hooked and take the next steps, joining clubs etc.

The best encouragement anyone could do to get people to play and join member courses is getting them out golfing in the first place.
Socs & casual rounds (even on Nama courses) offer a low barrier to entry for someone who wants to start the game.

Dr_Colossus

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Luttrellstown appears to be a course living in denial of the realities of the current climate.

Like you said, €2000+VAT and they have very few members. They should drop it to a grand+VAT and watch them queue at the door!

I've played it several times in the past couple of years, always midweek, and have often had a chat with the chap who seems to be running the place (South African, maybe? Nice chap) and the amount of times he's said "oh yes, we're doing very well, very busy today" etc etc... only for my pal and me to play 18 holes without seeing another group of golfers from first tee to 18th green! I've called requesting (for example) an 8.0am tee time and been told "em, we can give you 8.18?" etc... No problem, that'll do... then you get there and don't see another sinner in the place?? Um, where are the people who had the tee box from 8.0 to 8.18??

Like I said, whole place seems to be in denial...

Well said. Furthermore less than 100 members doesn't make a viable club and makes a bit of a mockery of weekend competitions with only a handful of competitors playing. Very hard to calculate appropriate CSS scores and adjust handicaps not to mention having an adequate number for inter club competitions.

Anyone know the background of the club and it's financial status? Any member of Luttrellstown here? My understanding is that it was/is owned by a consortium of investors and used to be a vibrant club until about 6 years ago when there were talks of the club closing. All members were forced to leave and some believe this was an effort by one of the consortium members to devalue the club/course prior to trying to acquire a majority share. Once all members had relocated elsewhere the club was somewhat dormant for a few years taking in occasional green fees. In the past two years the club was open again to members but numbers have been very low as indicated.

Don't know how it can survive with it's current member base or what the agenda is with the course/club. It's a fantastic course and I think the best parkland course in Dublin with an equally impressive clubhouse and great practice facilities and has always been in good condition any time I've played it. Staff and members have always been very friendly and welcoming so it's somewhat frustrating that they don't harness it's potential.

Hacker111

The_Architect wrote: »

Without wanting to bore, here's a quick entirely hypothetical example:

Course A: Built on good draining soil using native fescues and meadow grasses. Minimal earth moving needed (50k m3), 50 medium sized bunkers built with natural edges and placed well, some land drainage put in on greens which are push-up (i.e. non-USGA) and one or two lower lying fairways, native vegetation encouraged to thrive on all areas more than 10m in to the rough including natural collection areas for water. Irrigation installed on greens and tees only, used very sparingly. No trees or decorative vegetation planted. Good, clever, varied design. Basic but comfortable, small clubhouse.

Construction cost (course only): €750k
Maintenance crew: 3 to 4 (€125k per annum)
Maintenance materials & plant: €125k per annum
Eventual rating: Top-50 in Ireland

Course B: Built on wet farmland. Entire site re-seeded using bent grass on greens & tees. Large earth moving needed (1,000k m3) to create mounding and large shapes, 120 large sized bunkers built with clean and long wavy edges, primary & secondary drainage put in throughout course using surface and sub-surface techniques. Large greens (averaging 800m2) which are pure bent and will be cut to 2.5mm. Full USGA construction. Wall-to-wall irrigation installed throughout course. 50,000 young saplings planted with some more mature trees. Landscape budget for decorative planting. Cart paths installed round entire course. Design conservative. Large clubhouse with all mod-cons.

Construction cost (course only): €7m
Maintenance crew: 18 (€500k per annum)
Maintenance materials & plant: €500k per annum

Eventual rating: Top-50 in Ireland

To expand this interesting comparison.... I deem my home course to fall into category A - we happened to build a new clubhouse in the last 10 years as well as having some residual debt re a back 9.

Basically, I see Cat A to be are clubs that are based nearer urban areas and towns... more established and with a solid playing male membership... my club has 561 (ish) members this year and financials are marginally above breakeven after all costs and annual improvement to the course. This is a positive place to be in my view. Obvs things are tight and cashflow requires careful monitoring. Our caterer is leaving as he cannot make any make a profit and club cannot afford to subsidise him. Members just not eating.

Cat B: Typically is a Druids Glen type course. I watched it being built from scratch and imagine €7mln wouldn't be far away. Great in a boom..ching ching... now in a slump...corporate membership gone, green fees decimated and severely reduced.... membership (c. 330?)....... clubhouse is empty most of the time... the numbers as above to maintain such a great track are simply unsustainable....... what might help is the reduced annual sub to join and proximity to Dublin which has created current membership spike but this isn't enough.

Bottom line is these "trophy" courses do not have the old established membership...like an Arklow, Delgany, Wicklow, Old Conna etc...... if its a new club set up over last 10 years and not in a strong location it is likely to be economically unviable and will have to close at some point.... the country has min. 5 years of continued economic turmoil and pain..... all clubs will suffer but only the courses with a strong membership will survive....

clubs need to advertise properly, offer great deals on food/pint/round...get footfall through the course..... empty days during the week should be used as open days at budget prices of €10/12 a round just to get cash in and to get brand out there.

Money is tight, all leisure/service facilities are struggling and we have too much product.. eventually inefficient clubs will close say in area 1 - you have 2 cat As and 1 Cat B.... Cat B will close... 180 members swallow ego and join other two solid clubs who although under pressure will survive and improve due to new members..... it won't be a pretty picture for clubs but there is little choice...there are only so many golfers out there to go around;)

I remember a guy, who I know, that joined Powerscourt in 2006 for €55k (I seen the cheque).... he wanted to be seen around car park and clubhouse with the other guys with flash cars.... his not a member anymore, not sure about his mates with the flash cars.... this type of thing was just crazy and unsustainable.

finchkerry

Great thread, best one here in quite some while.

One area I feel that has not been picked up on here is immediate membership for golfers aged above student age running up till mid 30's like they offer in the UK. 

A lot of people start golf at an earlier age, play in regular juvenile competitions working up to student membership however past this form of membership they jump straight into paying full fees which for a 23 to say a .....28 year old, more or less starting off in the work place is far too much. After leaving college I was paying €1500 for a run of the mill Dublin club however many friends who grew up playing golf were totally put off by this price and simply chose to pay odd green fees here and there, eventually drifting away from the sport. Trust me this happens far too much throughout the country and needs to be addressed.

There is much more of a structured approach in the UK with the below membership options in many clubs (all example figures but provide a general guide)

23 - 25 year olds - £650
26 - 29 year olds - £800
30 - 32 year olds - £950

Working up to say a full members fee of £1100. I know some clubs like Balcarrick incoperate this type of membership in their structure, but far too many clubs do not.

This age group is vitally important for clubs to build a solid base of young members who should/will support the club in their late 30s/40s/50s etc. 

Second point is clubs got far too carried away with big fancy club houses which only seems to lose them money. The vast majority of people join a club to play the course rather than drink in the bar. Most clubs are not really in walking distance for their members anyway. Take perviously mentioned Castleknock as an example, although in Dublin with several bus routes in castleknock village you have to drive to the course. Having a couple of pints after your round is simply not an option with the drink drive laws.

Lastly we need to encourage more young female participation, making the sport more balanced and not dominated by one sex. Reaching out to schools should be the first way of doing this I suppose.

golfwallah

GreeBo wrote: »

More people being encouraged to play and join member courses.
There are loads of people who are happy to play society golf, not join a club and play in NAMA courses for buttons. This is doing nothing for the game of golf in Ireland long term.

True, NAMA golf courses are "lowering the bar" on green fees, thanks to Government propping up failed trophy courses, that originally targeted high spenders but can now afford to target the mass market (thank you very much Mr. Taxpayer). But Government are also propping up loss making “commercial” municipal courses in Fingal to the tune of about €300,000 per annum per course (don’t know about other local authority courses in Waterford and Cork) – thanks again Mr. Taxpayer and state borrowings.

So member clubs are being squeezed from the top and the bottom as regards green fees. This is great for societies and casual golfers in the short term but not so good for member golf clubs. They have to cut green fees, members’ subs and costs to compete. The proverbial “race to the bottom” as some people put it!

Or is it? Aside from moaning, there’s not much can be done in the short term about below cost selling by Nama and County Council courses. In the longer term, club committees could make their voices heard to their representative body – the GUI, but this would, perhaps, takes a lot more time and effort to organise than voluntary clubs could muster. Sadly, the GUI seems to prefer to bury itself in golf issues (they are good at bringing on talented juniors) and appears to be doing little to help their associated clubs ride the storm.

My view is that clubs should concentrate on what they are good at, namely being member clubs. Most of their revenue comes from membership - green fees are the cream. They should figure out ways to attract / retain members (requires market analysis, market planning, a greater choice of membership packages to suit different golfer age groups, etc.) and, simultaneously, seek every possible means to reduce costs – without impacting on the quality of their overall service offering. Every means at their disposal should be used, including outsourcing, but all this needs to be done properly, in compliance with legislation to avoid possible litigation.

These are difficult challenges for voluntary committees, meeting maybe once a month. But, if they haven’t the skill or time to undertake these strategic management tasks that are vital to survival, they should bring it in (even temporarily) from outside. I expect those member clubs that adapt to the new economic realities have a good chance for survival.

It’s a difficult balancing act to keep existing members happy while changes are being implemented – but that’s the challenge and communications both within the club and with the outside world are the key.

Tool_

Interesting discussion.

Putting manners on some badly-run, unwelcoming golf clubs has been a positive side-effect of the recession, although there are just too many courses in lots of places so these will have to be thinned-out.

In the short-term clubs have to sweat their assets as much as they can, but to be sustainable long-term they need to build a loyal base of young members. There's a huge gap in lots of clubs between juniors and the middle-aged that needs to be filled by retaining members in their 20s and 30s. Like a soccer season ticket, once people give up their membership they find other things to do and will be happy playing the odd society, etc.

thewobbler

Lastly we need to encourage more young female participation, making the sport more balanced and not dominated by one sex. Reaching out to schools should be the first way of doing this I suppose.

While this might be something for younger clubs to pursue, it would be a surefire nail in the coffin for many members clubs.

It's difficult to write this without coming across as sexist, which isn't my intention.

But, let's be simple about it. When you pay your membership, it is for certain privileges such as guaranteed weekend tee times and entry to club competitions. Any efforts to increase female membership that include a compromise of "male" benefits, will lead to fewer male members. And while there are potentially many talented and keen female members out there, there are many, many more potentially talented and keen male members. Men play more sport, and always will.