Happy birthday Krishna

bhamsteve

Happy Janmashtami to all the readers of boards, anyone wishing to inform themselves of this important event in the Hindu calender can read-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-ghouse/sri-krishna-birthday-celebration-janmashtami_b_1762997.html

http://hinduism.about.com/od/lordkrishna/p/krishna_birth.htm

MagicMarker

Also happy birthday to Don Swayze, brother of Patrick.

Sonics2k

I know you're trying to be funny and a little bit quirky by posting about the birthdays of Hindu gods, but maybe you should find an actual forum dedicated to Hinduism.

Nodin

bhamsteve wrote: »

Happy Janmashtami to all the readers of boards, anyone wishing to inform themselves of this important event in the Hindu calender can read-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-ghouse/sri-krishna-birthday-celebration-janmashtami_b_1762997.html

http://hinduism.about.com/od/lordkrishna/p/krishna_birth.htm

Excellent. What duties are owed to me by the lower castes on this occassion?

bhamsteve

Sonics2k wrote: »

I know you're trying to be funny and a little bit quirky by posting about the birthdays of Hindu gods, but maybe you should find an actual forum dedicated to Hinduism.

I posted it to see what kind of reaction it would provoke, there is no forum on boards for Hindus that I can see. If the Mods wish to move it then feel free

MagicMarker

bhamsteve wrote: »

I posted it to see what kind of reaction it would provoke

The very definition of being a troll.

Congrats.

bhamsteve

MagicMarker wrote: »

Also happy birthday to Don Swayze, brother of Patrick.

Never heard of him, I'll take your word for it though, Happy birthday Don.

Tonyandthewhale

This is very _ news. I can't help but feel extremely _ upon hearing of the birth of Krishna and this _ anniversary. My reaction can only be described as _.

bhamsteve

MagicMarker wrote: »

The very definition of being a troll.

Congrats.

That's not fair though, how do i know it will annoy people?
Some people may be glad that 1 billion people are celebrating today.
If I am a troll, just ignore and move on.

bhamsteve

Interesting reading on the caste system too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

More of a social construction than a religious one.

robindch

bhamsteve wrote: »

More of a social construction than a religious one.

Can you distinguish one from the other, as many people here suspect they're the same?

bhamsteve

robindch wrote: »

Can you distinguish one from the other, as many people here suspect they're the same?

It is hard as it is not an exact science. When something like the caste system exists across international borders, and in communities with different dominant religions, is not advocated in the Vedas (the bodies of text that the faith is based on), and the faith has worked very hard since independence to rid India of, I'd say it is something that society created. (I'm sure religion was at times used by some people to justify it though).

Peoples status and role in life has been linked to the social group they are born into quite universally across the world for thousands of years and we've only seen it recede in the last 50-100 years (British aristocracy, slave trading, apartheid, racial segregation in the US).
I see it as a lazy criticism of Hinduism which incidentally was used as an excuse for the Brits to colonise oppress and "civilise" them.

Further reading from a Hindu perspective if it is something that interests you-
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System.htm

coffee_cake

It's a bit like how they look down on women despite worshiping goddesses and all
doublethink
in some scriptures they're told the caste thing isn't cool and not a good reason for scorn

bhamsteve

bluewolf wrote: »

It's a bit like how they look down on women despite worshiping goddesses and all
doublethink
in some scriptures they're told the caste thing isn't cool and not a good reason for scorn

If you have nothing more intelligent to add then we'll leave it there. You are just throwing around stereotypes and ill informed xenophobic rubbish, with very little to back it up. Where did your vast knowledge of Hindu society originate from? the sun newspaper?
For a bunch of people who seem to view themselves as the intellectual superior, a lot of atheists come across as ignorant. If religion is something you despise so strongly, at least try to become a bit more informed. Either your opinions will change or you will know your enemy better.

coffee_cake

bhamsteve wrote: »

If you have nothing more intelligent to add then we'll leave it there. You are just throwing around stereotypes and ill informed xenophobic rubbish, with very little to back it up. Where did your vast knowledge of Hindu society originate from? the sun newspaper?
For a bunch of people who seem to view themselves as the intellectual superior, a lot of atheists come across as ignorant. If religion is something you despise so strongly, at least try to become a bit more informed. Either your opinions will change or you will know your enemy better.

What are you even talking about?
The bhagavad gita - one of those scriptures I mentioned which you seem to not know about - explains how conduct & dharma is important, not your birth. Treating people of "lower caste" badly isn't cool.
The women issue I mentioned comes from this article, quoting a female Indian journalist who says:

Maini Mahanta, the editor of the Assamese women's magazine Nandini ("Daughter"), believes the NCW chair's remarks are indicative of what she calls the "Taliban-plus" mentality that is creeping into Indian society. "In this part of the world, it's worse than the Taliban," she insists in her Guwahati office. "At least the Taliban are open about what they like and dislike. Here, society is so hypocritical. We worship female goddesses and yet fail to protect women from these crimes and then blame them too."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/23/why-india-bad-for-women

Perhaps you should drop your own ignorant ill-informed stereotypes before posting.
I have no idea what sparked that vitriol which had absolutely nothing to with what I posted.

robindch

bhamsteve wrote: »

You are just throwing around stereotypes and ill informed xenophobic rubbish, with very little to back it up. [...] For a bunch of people who seem to view themselves as the intellectual superior, a lot of atheists come across as ignorant.

bhamsteve - for somebody who seems to view himself/herself as intellectually superior, you're throwing around some fairly seriously uninformed stereotypes, while backing them up with nothing, making you look fairly ignorant in the process.

Do feel free to back up some of you assertions with evidence so that the forum can know that the above isn't the best you can do. And drop the impersonal, blanket stroppiness.

bhamsteve

bluewolf wrote: »

What are you even talking about?
The bhagavad gita - one of those scriptures I mentioned which you seem to not know about - explains how conduct & dharma is important, not your birth. Treating people of "lower caste" badly isn't cool.
The women issue I mentioned comes from this article, quoting a female Indian journalist who says:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/23/why-india-bad-for-women

Perhaps you should drop your own ignorant ill-informed stereotypes before posting.
I have no idea what sparked that vitriol which had absolutely nothing to with what I posted.

If I miss interpreted your post, I apologise. I read the first sentence-

"It's a bit like how they look down on women despite worshiping goddesses and all"

as a sweeping generalisation, but that might not be where you're coming from. I find the notion that all Hindus look down on women as offensive to them, and not in keeping with my own experiences, growing up with Hindu neighbours and living in India.

bhamsteve

robindch wrote: »

bhamsteve - for somebody who seems to view himself/herself as intellectually superior, you're throwing around some fairly seriously uninformed stereotypes, while backing them up with nothing, making you look fairly ignorant in the process.

Do feel free to back up some of you assertions with evidence so that the forum can know that the above isn't the best you can do. And drop the impersonal, blanket stroppiness.

I was interested to see how this thread would develop. Within about 2 minutes of starting it i had the rather predictable response related to the caste system, the usual argument of choice which has been used to attack the religion of 1 billion people. This is an opinion usually thrown around by ignorant people, but if anyone wants to discuss it in a more mature manner then fire away.
This was followed up with "they look down on women" another statement that does not deserve a reply unless someone can be bothered to put it across as a serious issue to be discussed.

I am obviously here on this thread because my views are contrary to what I see on this forum and if you want to see me as a troll then ignore.
And yes, i am ignorant of a lot of things, which i will freely admit.

oldrnwisr

bhamsteve wrote: »

I was interested to see how this thread would develop. Within about 2 minutes of starting it i had the rather predictable response related to the caste system, the usual argument of choice which has been used to attack the religion of 1 billion people. This is an opinion usually thrown around by ignorant people, but if anyone wants to discuss it in a more mature manner then fire away.
This was followed up with "they look down on women" another statement that does not deserve a reply unless someone can be bothered to put it across as a serious issue to be discussed.

I am obviously here on this thread because my views are contrary to what I see on this forum and if you want to see me as a troll then ignore.
And yes, i am ignorant of a lot of things, which i will freely admit.

You see there are a couple of problems with your assessment of how this thread has progressed.

Firstly, on your first contribution to the forum here you didn't exactly cover yourself in glory and then rapidly followed that up by starting this thread which you freely admit you started just to provoke a reaction.

Secondly, from the last census in 2011, there are 10,688 Hindus in Ireland. When you combine this with the fact that Hinduism is a belief system with a diversity of opinion on most core teachings, it is not surprising that people in Ireland who will mostly be familiar with Chrisitian teachings will have a certain lack of knowledge of Hinduism as well as certain misconceptions about Hindu teachings. Additionally, since the lack of unified beliefs in Hinduism means that there is no coherent moral code, Hindus don't tend to make political arguments in the same way that Christians do like "gay marriage should remain illegal." Thus, something like Hinduism doesn't pop up on the radar of a lot of atheists in the same way Christianity does. However, instead of dismissing such comments as ignorant, a far more helpful contribution would be to explain, as you did here why the comments are mistaken.

Also, I fail to see the relevance of how many followers of Hinduism there are.

Next, while there may be misconceptions about teachings of Hinduism such as Varna and Sati, the origin of these misconceptions lie with the "prophets" if you will of Hinduism, the people who expound their "interpretation" of the scriptures. For example, while no scripture mandates Sati, it is mentioned as an honourable gesture in some books. Also while the Varna is not something which is limited to Hindu society, there is enough mention of it in scriptures like the Rig Veda to support such a practice. As I mentioned, that is why correcting misconceptions rather than dismissing them is more useful.

Finally, I have to say that this whole thread is a little strange. Other than "to provoke" what is this thread supposed to accomplish. Are you espousing Hinduism as the one true religion? Are you suggesting that the teachings of Hinduism should be respected and if so why?
The thing is that personally, the truth is important to me. I am happy to state what I know and can show to be true and say I don't know to everything else. If someone wants to believe that a being called Krishna exists fine. I don't have a problem with that. The only times I have a problem with this are a) when they try to convince me or argue that this being actually exists (in which case you need to demonstrate this with evidence) and b) when said beliefs impact my rights or the rights and freedoms of others (then you've crossed a line). Otherwise, it's all good.

coffee_cake

bhamsteve wrote: »

If I miss interpreted your post, I apologise. I read the first sentence-
.

you certainly have.

I was agreeing with you that they have a society issue, not a religion issue.
The religion does not look down on women; the society does. The religion does not look down on castes; the society does.


If you really think the society does not have a problem with women in india, particularly some rural areas, I'm not the ignorant one.

bhamsteve

bluewolf wrote: »

you certainly have.

I was agreeing with you that they have a society issue, not a religion issue.
The religion does not look down on women; the society does. The religion does not look down on castes; the society does.


If you really think the society does not have a problem with women in india, particularly some rural areas, I'm not the ignorant one.

In which case i will again repeat my apology for misunderstanding your post. I would agree that many people in Indian society including people of all religions have a poor attitude towards women, which the earlier linked guardian article puts across well.

I would add that it is also a country going through a very difficult process of trying to unite and form a functioning society of 1 billion people after centuries of colonisation at the same time as dragging them out of poverty. I admire their efforts but recognise that the rights of women is probabaly their most pressing matter to deal with, along with other inequalities.
The Guardian article also gives me some faith in mankind by the way the community united and forced action by the police. I'm sure most of these people would also consider themselves religious.

bhamsteve

Firstly, on your first contribution to the forum here you didn't exactly cover yourself in glory and then rapidly followed that up by starting this thread which you freely admit you started just to provoke a reaction.

I don't seek glory, I came onto boards stumbled upon a poll in a forum that i wouldn't usually take any interest in, answered it, gave my opinion on the matter. I find the forum to be similar to many on boards, more of a place for like minded people to hang out, than a forum of interesting debate.

Secondly, from the last census in 2011, there are 10,688 Hindus in Ireland. When you combine this with the fact that Hinduism is a belief system with a diversity of opinion on most core teachings, it is not surprising that people in Ireland who will mostly be familiar with Chrisitian teachings will have a certain lack of knowledge of Hinduism as well as certain misconceptions about Hindu teachings. Additionally, since the lack of unified beliefs in Hinduism means that there is no coherent moral code, Hindus don't tend to make political arguments in the same way that Christians do like "gay marriage should remain illegal." Thus, something like Hinduism doesn't pop up on the radar of a lot of atheists in the same way Christianity does. However, instead of dismissing such comments as ignorant, a far more helpful contribution would be to explain, as you did here why the comments are mistaken.

I'd agree with all of that. I'd certainly place Hinduism on the list of belief systems that we could learn a lot from.
If I see someone being ignorant I tend to just call them ignorant and leave them to it, same as when someone tells me a racist joke. I guess that is laziness, we should all challenge it.

Also, I fail to see the relevance of how many followers of Hinduism there are.

I disagree. I would be more inclined to learn about a religion, and consider it's merits, faults etc, when it is followed by so many people.

Finally, I have to say that this whole thread is a little strange. Other than "to provoke" what is this thread supposed to accomplish. Are you espousing Hinduism as the one true religion? Are you suggesting that the teachings of Hinduism should be respected and if so why?

Has this thread accomplished anything? at least we are now discussing the pros and cons of one of the worlds major religions and progressed a little further than "it can not be proven so it is silly"

The thing is that personally, the truth is important to me. I am happy to state what I know and can show to be true and say I don't know to everything else. If someone wants to believe that a being called Krishna exists fine. I don't have a problem with that.

Agreed. Lets be honest, we know what we see around us, read in the papers and form our own opinions on life as we try to make sense of the world. I can't get my head around quantum theory and gave up on a "brief history of time" half way through but I'll take their word for it. WTF is a higgs boson? Doesn't make too much sense to me but I'm not a particle physicist.

The only times I have a problem with this are a) when they try to convince me or argue that this being actually exists (in which case you need to demonstrate this with evidence) and b) when said beliefs impact my rights or the rights and freedoms of others (then you've crossed a line). Otherwise, it's all good.

a) personally I'd have no problem listening to why someone believes their religion. I think religions are part of the rich tapestry of life even though I don't follow one.
b) agreed.

oldrnwisr

bhamsteve wrote: »

I disagree. I would be more inclined to learn about a religion, and consider it's merits, faults etc, when it is followed by so many people.

Just one quick point here. The number of people who believe that something is true has no actual bearing on the truth of that claim. That is what we call the argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy. In fact, given your previous admission about not being religious, I'm rather surprised why you consider Hinduism worthy of further study based on its 1 billion followers when Christianity has more than double that number.

bhamsteve

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Just one quick point here. The number of people who believe that something is true has no actual bearing on the truth of that claim. That is what we call the argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy. In fact, given your previous admission about not being religious, I'm rather surprised why you consider Hinduism worthy of further study based on its 1 billion followers when Christianity has more than double that number.

I'm not really too interested if religions claims are true, by which I mean the likelihood of a deity, reincarnation, life after death etc.
I do think the study of religion is necessary in order to understand people, society, history, psychology etc.
I wouldn't say Hinduism is more worthy of study than Christianity, although personally i do find it more interesting -33 Gods vs 1, different denominations who get on and are tolerant of each other.

Nodin

bhamsteve wrote: »

I'm not really too interested if religions claims are true, by which I mean the likelihood of a deity, reincarnation, life after death etc.
I do think the study of religion is necessary in order to understand people, society, history, psychology etc.
I wouldn't say Hinduism is more worthy of study than Christianity, although personally i do find it more interesting -33 Gods vs 1, different denominations who get on and are tolerant of each other.

...theres denominations who "get on and are tolerant of each other" in christianity as well. Theres also sectarian violence and intolerance within hinduism. I'd suggest that you're looking at the grass on the other side of the fence and thinking its greener.

bhamsteve

Nodin wrote: »

...theres denominations who "get on and are tolerant of each other" in christianity as well. Theres also sectarian violence and intolerance within hinduism. I'd suggest that you're looking at the grass on the other side of the fence and thinking its greener.

I'm not aware of a history of Hindus killing other Hindu denominations , provide some links and I'll have a read.

Nodin

bhamsteve wrote: »

I'm not aware of a history of Hindus killing other Hindu denominations , provide some links and I'll have a read.

I'm talking about Hindus killing christians, muslims, and attacks on lower castes. Do you want proof of that, or will we stop now?

bhamsteve

Nodin wrote: »

I'm talking about Hindus killing christians, muslims, and attacks on lower castes. Do you want proof of that, or will we stop now?

Religious violence in India is described in detail here. It puts into context the violence between Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc. Before partition I would attribute it to a fight between an indigenous population and waves of invaders and colanising cultures (Mughals, followed by European).

The partition of the Indian subcontinent was a bloody civil war, the effects of which are still simmering now, exasperated by Hindu extremists and Islamic terrorists tit for tat attacks, and the contentious issue of Kashmir.

The Moderate, left wing governments of the Indian National Congress have put the laws in place to protect religious minorities, dalits, women and other socially excluded groups but as yet, they have not yet achieved it.
This is all my opinion and someone with a different viewpoint could put an entirely different spin on it and come to different conclusions, just as valid as my own.

vishnuprasad3232

Thank you very much for your kind birthday wishes. It's heartwarming to receive such thoughtful greetings on my special day. Your message has indeed added a touch of joy to the celebration. I look forward to celebrating together soon.

circadian

The best bot yet. This is some Ghost in the Shell ****.