Our wedding is "void"

pychofairy

We got married a month ago and we had the most amazing day of our lives. We just came back from honeymoon last week and the secretary in Joyce House rang my wife to tell her that our marriage is void in the eyes of the State and in the eyes of the Catholic Church. She told us we will have to do a civil ceremony with witness and probably have to retake our catholic vows too.

The priest we used is from a different Parish and had to get a letter from the Bishop to permit him to marry us in my wife’s parish. This was all fine and was organised months ago. There has been a clerical error and the priest was only authorised to marry us on a certain date where as we were married on the day after. The Catholic Church does not recognise his right to marry us in that Church on that date and the State does not recognise him as a solemniser to cement the partnership on that date. We did nothing wrong and this error happened outside of our control and was seemingly just the slip of a pen. At the moment the Church and State officials are trying to resolve it but I think at the very least, we will have to go to a civil register.

My wife is absolutely devastated. It has taken from our special day and I am furious. If anyone has any advice I would be very appreciative of it. I am thinking of taking legal action whatever the outcome for the anguish this has caused.

seamus

Whether it's valid in the eyes of the church is actually irrelevant when it comes to legal part. It doesn't matter if the priest was "authorised" by the church to marry you on any particular day, provided that he was a legal solemniser on the day in question.

What I'm getting from your post is that when you registered with the state to get married, the date they wrote on your MRF was incorrect? Did you keep copies of all of the documents?

Little Miss Confused

Hey,

Just a little unsure here what you mean.

When you filled in your documentation in the registry office was the date correct on it?

When you filled in the paperwork with your priest was the date on that correct?

From past experience the priest doesn't need permission to marry someone in a different parish, I am guessing that they dates on your documentation was wrong somewhere?

pychofairy

All our documentatioon was definitely correct and so was the priest's. He's faxing his original docs today. The priest is practising in England and had to be authourised to marry in Ireland. This wouldn't have been a problem seemingly before 2007.
What matters is that when it came across the desk of the registery, the dates didn't match up. There is an investigation at the moment to see how it happened.

Little Miss Confused

If all the dates match then there is nothing to worry about.

Unless is the Bishop at fault? Maybe he had to fill in documentation too and put the wrong date on it?

It would be worth while asking the priest to check that side too.

Unfortunately, if there is a wrong date it isn't legally binding. The priest is the solemniser (sp) and he is responsible for completing the legal documentation so they are connected.

pychofairy

It does seem like it may be the Bishop who may have put down the wrong date.

eyescreamcone

Little Miss Confused wrote: »

If all the dates match then there is nothing to worry about.

Unless is the Bishop at fault? Maybe he had to fill in documentation too and put the wrong date on it?

It would be worth while asking the priest to check that side too.

Unfortunately, if there is a wrong date it isn't legally binding. The priest is the solemniser (sp) and he is responsible for completing the legal documentation so they are connected.

Solemnisers must be on a registered list.
Was this English based priest "a registered solemniser" in the eyes of the HSE??
Was he only made a solemniser for one day (not the day you got married)??

If you got the days wrong somehow all bets are off and you will probably need to get married in the eyes of the state.

A pain - but these things need to be done in a legally correct manner

seamus

Ah right, so it appears that all of the dates on your legal documentation is correct, but the Bishop put down the wrong date on his forms, meaning that your priest wasn't a legal solemniser on the day in question.

Solemnisers are nominated by the religious insitution, so presumably the bishop "nominated" your priest for that day, but he wouldn't have been legally authorised any other day.

Tough one tbh. From what you describe, the fault lies entirely with the bishop. If you were thinking of taking legal action, he's the only one you can sue.

Unless you can get the HSE to retroactively authorise the solemniser for the correct day, then you may have to attend and get married civilly in order to have a legal marriage.

I wouldn't worry about the Catholic aspect unless the bishop tells you that your marriage isn't valid in their eyes.

Little Miss Confused

pychofairy wrote: »

It does seem like it may be the Bishop who may have put down the wrong date.

If that's the case OP the wedding is void unfortunately.

You would have to go again to the registry office. Not sure if the church side would stand, you would have to look into that.

Sorry OP for your troubles.

Little Miss Confused

seamus wrote: »

.

Tough one tbh. From what you describe, the fault lies entirely with the bishop. If you were thinking of taking legal action, he's the only one you can sue.

I'd say their main priority at the moment is getting the legal side of their marriage sorted!

OP, focus on the important part first and then look for compensation if you want.

seamus

Little Miss Confused wrote: »

I'd say their main priority at the moment is getting the legal side of their marriage sorted!

OP, focus on the important part first and then look for compensation if you want.

Agreed, personally I wouldn't bother suing, but he did mention possible legal action

LashingLady

Look, I know this is a pain in the ass, and it would be a pain in the ass if you had to take your vows again

I can understand your wife is devastated BUT remind her:

you were both there when you got married one month ago, you both took your vows in seriousness, love, earnest, in the presence of God truly believing that you were taking your lifelong partner in marriage - THAT'S what matters.

If there's some silly clerical error that means that's void then I would say try to grin and bear it, take your vows again with understanding witnesses, go for a nice lunch or dinner, and laugh it off.

This clerical story is ridiculous in the extreme expecially if it was the bishop who made a stupid error. I'm not sure about my own feelings about God but I can say for sure if He's interested in human marriage then He definitely knows that your married!

ResearchWill

pychofairy wrote: »

We got married a month ago and we had the most amazing day of our lives. We just came back from honeymoon last week and the secretary in Joyce House rang my wife to tell her that our marriage is void in the eyes of the State and in the eyes of the Catholic Church. She told us we will have to do a civil ceremony with witness and probably have to retake our catholic vows too.

The priest we used is from a different Parish and had to get a letter from the Bishop to permit him to marry us in my wife’s parish. This was all fine and was organised months ago. There has been a clerical error and the priest was only authorised to marry us on a certain date where as we were married on the day after. The Catholic Church does not recognise his right to marry us in that Church on that date and the State does not recognise him as a solemniser to cement the partnership on that date. We did nothing wrong and this error happened outside of our control and was seemingly just the slip of a pen. At the moment the Church and State officials are trying to resolve it but I think at the very least, we will have to go to a civil register.

My wife is absolutely devastated. It has taken from our special day and I am furious. If anyone has any advice I would be very appreciative of it. I am thinking of taking legal action whatever the outcome for the anguish this has caused.

While I understand your wife's frustration, it's really easy to sort out. Get on to Bishop as its his error, he really should sort everything, and if he is a decent guy he will personally arrange to marry you on a convenient day for the two of ye and bestman and bridesmaid. A small little mass with the bishop would be nice. In your own minds the real day was your first wedding.

Even President Obama had to redo the oath the next day in the White House as chief justice made a mess of it the first time. It will also be a funny story to tell your grand children in years to come.

scholar007

pychofairy wrote: »

[ There has been a clerical error

Sorry! - Am I banned?

goldenhoarde

LashingLady wrote: »

Look, I know this is a pain in the ass, and it would be a pain in the ass if you had to take your vows again

I can understand your wife is devastated BUT remind her:

you were both there when you got married one month ago, you both took your vows in seriousness, love, earnest, in the presence of God truly believing that you were taking your lifelong partner in marriage - THAT'S what matters.

If there's some silly clerical error that means that's void then I would say try to grin and bear it, take your vows again with understanding witnesses, go for a nice lunch or dinner, and laugh it off.

This clerical story is ridiculous in the extreme expecially if it was the bishop who made a stupid error. I'm not sure about my own feelings about God but I can say for sure if He's interested in human marriage then He definitely knows that your married!

Agree here with Lashing Lady - paperwork is a disaster area especially when there are more than one having a hand in it!



Remember on the day your wedding day was your wedding day! It appears it was the most amazing day of your life so don't let a piece of paper alter that.

Book a civil cermony on the quiet then whisk her away for a nite to somewhere special. No-one needs to know. Face it your married (which is what you want) Its just dotting the iii's and crossing the ttt's now

pychofairy

Yeah this is the line I took to try and calm my wife. As far as I'm concerned, I was married by a priest in front of God, my friends and family. The rest is clerical and i think you are right, we will just have to grin and bear it. What is annoying is that my best man has emigrated since and so has her bridesmaid.We will need two different witnesses. I don't think we will say a word to anyone as it would only ultimately take from our day if people knew.

dahamsta

I don't understand why this would cause devastation. If ye enjoyed your day and ye love each other, just get on with fixing up this minor issue, get on with your lives, and forget about it. It's hardly the end of the world, and ye get an extra anniversary to celebrate.

goldenhoarde

pychofairy wrote: »

Yeah this is the line I took to try and calm my wife. As far as I'm concerned, I was married by a priest in front of God, my friends and family. The rest is clerical and i think you are right, we will just have to grin and bear it. What is annoying is that my best man has emigrated since and so has her bridesmaid.We will need two different witnesses. I don't think we will say a word to anyone as it would only ultimately take from our day if people knew.

Its a witness and even if its not the same people do we ever go around showing off the wedding cert which is about the only place that shows it.

Married six years now and never shown it to anyone. as some said it will make for a great story in later years!!

A good friend for each or your parents would be my suggestion

Murky Waters

I may be wrong but it sounds as if the priest who performed the ceremony was either a relative or a family friend, & is probably highly embarrassed over this even though it wasn't his fault.

If that's the case if I were you I'd just push the Bishop of the diocese where the marriage took place to arrange an intimate ceremony that would be legal in the eyes of both church & state at no cost to yourselves.

Make sure that you deal directly with the Bishop, or at least his secretary, & not someone working in the local parish office, who could be feeding you with incorrect information & not be in a position to arrange alternative or agreeable arrangements.

07734

i think it's kinda funny, and in a few years you'll look back and laugh.

eyescreamcone

Do you have to give the HSE three months notice again???

lazygal

The three month notice period can be waived for exceptional circumstances, such as an illness, one party leaving to serve overseas etc. I think you might well be able to get this sorted very quickly, the legal ceremony takes all of five minutes and anyone over 18 can be a witness, you could have total strangers if you didn't want anyone to know.

ResearchWill

lazygal wrote: »

The three month notice period can be waived for exceptional circumstances, such as an illness, one party leaving to serve overseas etc. I think you might well be able to get this sorted very quickly, the legal ceremony takes all of five minutes and anyone over 18 can be a witness, you could have total strangers if you didn't want anyone to know.

I don't think the 3 months will be required, but if it is then can only be waived by a Judge.

MadsL

Sorry, but "take from your day"? The ratification of the State's recognition of your marriage was missing, that's all. It's paperwork. If that somehow diminishes the marriage in your eyes, I don't know what to tell you. I can't believe you would even think of suing in this circumstance - maybe if you had to rework other legal documents but for "taking away from your day" - I think your wife needs to get over herself, sounds like a bridezilla after the fact.

I recently bought a house, we went out for dinner to celebrate. We got a phonecall the next day to say there was a mistake in the closing papers and we had to sign them again. That didn't 'diminish' our view of clinking champagne glasses to celebrate the new house, or cause us heartburn at the thought of not actually owning the house when we celebrated.

Sleepy

I'd be of the other opinion: they were told they were married when they weren't. At the very least, I'd be suing the person responsible for the foregone tax benefits.

MadsL, how do you know this didn't severely upset the OP's other half? What if they were practising (rather than cultural or a-la-carte) Catholics and have now been informed that what they thought was the consummation of their marriage was, in fact, fornication in the eyes of their Church?

Being told your marriage is null and void is an understandable thing to be upset about imo and it seems a little heartless to be suggest the OP's other half is being a Bridezilla.

lazygal

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd be of the other opinion: they were told they were married when they weren't. At the very least, I'd be suing the person responsible for the foregone tax benefits.

MadsL, how do you know this didn't severely upset the OP's other half? What if they were practising (rather than cultural or a-la-carte) Catholics and have now been informed that what they thought was the consummation of their marriage was, in fact, fornication in the eyes of their Church?

Being told your marriage is null and void is an understandable thing to be upset about imo and it seems a little heartless to be suggest the OP's other half is being a Bridezilla.

But in the eyes of the church they are married. In the strictly Catholic sacramental sense, the couple marry each other, the priest is just there to make sure the sacrament is performed properly. So if its a purely religious marriage, they are married in the eyes of God and their faith. The sacrament is separate from the civil bit in a church wedding.

Sleepy

The OP specifically said that they've been told that the church don't recognise their marriage...

MadsL

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd be of the other opinion: they were told they were married when they weren't. At the very least, I'd be suing the person responsible for the foregone tax benefits.

Seriously? Come on, it would cost more for your first hour of legal advice than the couple of weeks tax difference.

Sleepy wrote: »

MadsL, how do you know this didn't severely upset the OP's other half? What if they were practising (rather than cultural or a-la-carte) Catholics and have now been informed that what they thought was the consummation of their marriage was, in fact, fornication in the eyes of their Church?

Being told your marriage is null and void is an understandable thing to be upset about imo and it seems a little heartless to be suggest the OP's other half is being a Bridezilla.

How about I withdraw that remark it if she was 'saving herself', over you OP

Sleepy

MadsL wrote: »

Seriously? Come on, it would cost more for your first hour of legal advice than the couple of weeks tax difference.

Which is why one usually also sues for expenses.

How about I withdraw that remark it if she was 'saving herself', over you OP

To be fair, I took the extreme example however, it's still going to be distressing for most newly wed women to be told that they aren't, in fact, married.

When that distress is caused by the incompetence of someone working on behalf of an organisation, that organisation is responsible to compensate the person who's suffered through their actions. In this case, I'd be thinking along the lines of the cost of a nice honeymoon.

dahamsta

Sleepy wrote: »

To be fair, I took the extreme example however, it's still going to be distressing for most newly wed women to be told that they aren't, in fact, married.

My wife would have laughed her ass off.

Did someone turn on the time machine? Have we gone back to the Fifties?

MadsL

Sleepy wrote: »

Which is why one usually also sues for expenses.

To be fair, I took the extreme example however, it's still going to be distressing for most newly wed women to be told that they aren't, in fact, married.

When that distress is caused by the incompetence of someone working on behalf of an organisation, that organisation is responsible to compensate the person who's suffered through their actions. In this case, I'd be thinking along the lines of the cost of a nice honeymoon.

Ah, compo culture, alive and well despite the recession.

Are you having a giraffe? What 'suffering' and 'distress' has this caused apart from the minor inconvenience of having possibly to go stand in front of a bishop for 10 minutes with two friends.

Put out the hand eh?

Sleepy

The knowledge that a day the couple have spent months organising and looking forward to wasn't actually their wedding. Many people would consider their wedding being made a charade to be upsetting.

3DataModem

Just be grateful you didn't die, the inheritance and probate would be an absolute nightmare.

MadsL

Sleepy wrote: »

The knowledge that a day the couple have spent months organising and looking forward to wasn't actually their wedding. Many people would consider their wedding being made a charade to be upsetting.

In what way was it a charade? There was a technical misunderstanding and it is easily corrected.

Do they love each other less? Is their commitment to each other any the less valid? Did their friends view it as any the less as 'their' wedding? Should they ask for their presents back as they weren't 'properly' married?

Honestly, I think I would more upset if the wrong wine was served at the reception.

And you want, what, three to five grand or so back in compo? Seriously?

Senna

The Op and Op's wife have every right to be annoyed and they're annoyed at the moment because it hasn't been sorted yet. Once the bishop (or whoever) is able to tell them what needs to happen next, i think they will calm down and within a few days it wont be a big deal.
They got married, their anniversary will be on that date, no one else will know anything about it unless the OP tell them, i cant see anyone suing as there is very little to sue about.
I'd be annoyed, maybe not enough to contemplate suing, but its just more hassle that a newly wed couple dont need.

Sleepy

I'd feel the same as you, the wrong wine would piss me off more. However, I'm a rational man who wouldn't allow the church near my wedding. Forgive the generalisation but most women are heavily emotionally invested in their wedding days: it's the exact reason weddings are such big business. Most guys I know would be happy with the registry office and a knees up in the local.

I can think of maybe 2 or 3 of my female friends who wouldn't be seriously pissed off and/or upset by what happened the OP. And let's be honest, it's not like 3 to 5 grand is any more than a drop in the ocean to the richest organisation on the planet...

pwurple

Sleepy wrote: »

However, I'm a rational man

I think it's a tiny bit harsh to imply that the OP is irrational. What happened is certainly not as planned, and I imagine it is upsetting to be told you are not actually married after your wedding.

It can't be helped though OP, so I guess just get on with sorting it out as best you can, and put it down as one of the stories for the pub.

Solair

Legally speaking, the most important thing to do is immediately get onto the local registrar and resolve it with them a.s.a.p.

Otherwise, it could have an implication for things like tax and inheritance.

Clareman

Why not look at this as a massive positive, you've gone through the whole "show" that is a marriage with all your friends and family around you, why not organize a Saturday with you best man & bridesmaid and head off to dot the i's and cross the t's? As the church have said they have made a clerical error, ask them to organize a time and date somewhere that suits you as soon as possible.

Think of the positives, you will have a great story to tell, be able to introduce yourself as "second wife, second husband", be able to have a day with your friends and you'll always have 2 anniversaries . You will be married for the rest of your lives (hopefully) a couple of weeks for a clerical error doesn't make any difference.

magicbastarder

it's been a long time i've been catholic, but i'd be fairly certain that the catholic sacrament of marriage happens at the altar, not at the point where you sign the documents after, which at best would be considered (from the church side) a record of the marriage. so there should not be a question of not being married in the eyes of the church.
this basically just comes down to a (hopefully easily fixed) paperwork cockup.

a conversation with a solicitor about suing would probably last less than five minutes and would leave you feeling a bit sheepish.

eyescreamcone

First things first.
Arrange a meeting with the HSE (births, deaths and marriages).
You will have met them previously (when you were giving your 3 months notice).

They will tell u how to become legally married. This is the important part.


As for the priests/sacrament etc - meh!

John Mason

tbh, i really dont get what the big deal is.

all you have to do is attend an office and sign your name again.

it makes not difference to your relationship, it doesnt take any from your wedding day.

mistakes happen, people are not robots or computers. the idea of suing someone over a mistake, seems ludicrous to me but again, i guess this is the kind of society we now live in.

Solair

At worst, you'd have to have a quick civil marriage. It's not exactly difficult or complicated and I would think that your local registrar's office (given the circumstances) will bend over backwards to facilitate you.

Get onto them on Monday and have a chat and see what can be sorted out.

All the info is here on the http://www.groireland.ie/getting_married.htm (General Register Office)

and here's a list of all registered solmnisers (people who can officiate at weddings) both civil and religious types:

http://www.groireland.ie/solemniser.xls

Sleepy

irishbird wrote: »

mistakes happen, people are not robots or computers. the idea of suing someone over a mistake, seems ludicrous to me but again, i guess this is the kind of society we now live in.

TBH, I'm probably letting my hatred of the organisation cloud my judgement. Were it any other group officiating, I'd leave it go.

pychofairy

The Church had recognised the marriage but we need to do another civil ceremony. We don't have a timeline for this and it may yet take weeks.We will need two different witness as our original two live abroad. It has still to be all confirmed.
The annoying thing about this is that it's ongoing from the moment we got back from honeymoon and has just been hanging over us with nobody giving us a straight answer or guidance. No matter what a persons level of sensitivity is, it's not easy being told your marriage is void, no wait... it's ok, no wait; it's not... let me just ask someone else... do ye want to just do the whole process again? No? Ok we'll just do a civil ceremony so.. we'll book ye in so in a few weks time.

MadsL

pychofairy wrote: »

The Church had recognised the marriage but we need to do another civil ceremony. We don't have a timeline for this and it may yet take weeks.We will need two different witness as our original two live abroad. It has still to be all confirmed.
The annoying thing about this is that it's ongoing from the moment we got back from honeymoon and has just been hanging over us with nobody giving us a straight answer or guidance. No matter what a persons level of sensitivity is, it's not easy being told your marriage is void, no wait... it's ok, no wait; it's not... let me just ask someone else... do ye want to just do the whole process again? No? Ok we'll just do a civil ceremony so.. we'll book ye in so in a few weks time.

Sorry you getting the run around, that is shocking. Would a long weekend in Vegas sort it?

Penny Dreadful

Sleepy wrote: »

The knowledge that a day the couple have spent months organising and looking forward to wasn't actually their wedding. Many people would consider their wedding being made a charade to be upsetting.[/QUOTE]

Money doesn't undo that.
It was a paperwork mess up and I can see how the OP and his wife are annoyed about it. Have a rant and a rave and get it sorted. Then its done and dusted in a few weeks. If you go the legal route of claiming great distress etc etc then it drags on for years.

pychofairy

We got word today that the state will in fact recognise our marriage and issue a licence!!!!! Thank God, we can just move on and put it behind us.
It seems that somewhere along the line it was written that the priest was authourised to solemnise up until the 10th (for example). This is understood to mean that he may solemnise until midnight on the ninth but no later.
I think if it was thrust into the limelight it may throw a lot of other marriages legality into question. Maybe it's a can of worms the Church doesn't want to open.
Either way we're delighted with the outcome, just a pity it took so long to finalise. Thanks for advice offered by posters

eyescreamcone

Congrats

No more illicit sex tho