Where to start - separation & divorce

LegacyUser

The man I married and I agreed to split up late last year. Like many other couples, we haven't been able to afford to move out of our home yet but both of us work away a lot so it hasn't been too tough.

Can't believe how long the process is here, I really want to just move on, but with a divorce being at least 3 years away it feels like I'm trapped as his wife. We were married quite a long time, tried to fix things but we actually don't even like each other any more.

Will be eligible for a legal separation in a few weeks, I feel I need to get this because it's the only way we can actually move on. There are no children involved but there is property. I haven't seen a solicitor yet, is this the next step? It might seem the obvious thing but to be honest the whole thing terrifies me, I don't want it to be acrimonious and dirty, but I can't see how we can agree a split of property/maintenance without a professional looking after my best interests (he earns considerably more than me).

hiltonhater

Upwardsfromhere wrote: »

I don't want it to be acrimonious and dirty, but I can't see how we can agree a split of property/maintenance without a professional looking after my best interests (he earns considerably more than me).

Well if you are going to look for spousal maintenance off him even though you work yourself then it probably WILL be acrimonious and dirty. Actually I do not see that you could get spousal maintenance if you are working anyway and there are no children involved. I think the fairest way is to sell the property, split either the profits or losses and walk away from each other. If all of this is agreed to now then it will make your divorce process much simpler. Best of luck.

sffc

Doesn't really matter now in your case but you were always eligible to a obtain a legal separation once you separated by obtaining a "deed of separation " . This has be be by mutual agreement though.
What you probably mean is a judicial separation ( one year wait) . However in certain cases ( adultery ,violence and others I think) there is no wait . I'm writing this because it's a common misconception that you have to wait a year to get a legal separation. Yes you (both) need legal advice, from my own experience the sooner you sort it the better. Best of luck. .

bjak

Imo, a judicial separation is barely worth the paper its written on unless there are specific matters that you want to legally enforce such as maintenance (previous poster suggests may not be possible), or division of property or debt in the absence of agreement. If you both can agree this reasonably amicably, and that is not always possible, it might be the best route.

It must be difficult to move on if you are living under the same roof.

There is a danger when the solicitors become involved that you or your ex might get one who wants to ratchet things up between you to get matters as acrimonious as possible, better again (for them) if it gets into court and consequent high legal fees. Ultimately this makes a bad situation much worse.

There is a non confrontational option being promoted by the law society that may be beneficial.

Judical separation might have the dress up/illusion of being a professional process but when a hand written document is passing over and back between your legal team and his in the lobby of the court you may wonder about that.

Its difficult to be detached on this but if you cant afford to sell the house, even a straightforward friend of a friend type solicitors fee with a "keep the acrimony out of it" instruction will stun you and your bank balance. And you may have the same cost all over again for the divorce. Don't know if there is a thread on such costs but some would get you a fair deposit (and then some) on a new home.

Yes 4 years is a long time to wait for a divorce - who's to say when you actually separated, if you can both agree on the (ahem) date. Its not like the courts have CCTV or really care.

Payton

Myself and my "wife" are living under the same roof...for the time being. I have tried all avenues from mediation, through to a DIY but she threw obstacles in the way all the time so now.
I have no choice but to apply for a Judicial Separation, damn expensive but I don't really have a choice. But I'm in a position to do it albeit through the credit union.
Our children are over 18 so they don't really come in to scheme of things, the house is paid for so no morgage which is still a "family home" so I'm unsure where that leave us.
@SFFC "However in certain cases ( adultery ,violence and others I think) there is no wait" I've had a look at the Citizens Information and I didnt see that bit, but I'll check again.
The thing I find hard to understand is the total selfishness of the whole situation and the emotional/mental mess that is left behind from this. Just a rant

bjak

Absolutely not an easy situation to be in and I really sympathise. You need to detach yourself from the reasons matters have reached this stage and decide what you want.

It seems to be generally accepted that the courts are more lenient towards women so you are the underdog before you start.

How do you see this working out financially - if you sell the current house, and split the proceeds will there be enough to buy 2 smaller places. Enough income for both + age to get a mortgage?

While the children are over 18, if any is in full time education there is a danger she could get to keep the house until the last one has finished education - how are you fixed in the meantime?

What are your income levels relative to each other? Will you have to pay maintenance to her for herself?

Will any of the kids in education live with you in the post separation situation - if not are you liable for child support and how much?

With a judicial separation, you are still legally married and the order sets out various legal requirements on maintenance expenses etc. It may include mutual exclusion orders. It is not divorce and either party can go to court to have the order varied. Once you decide broadly what you are looking for, then get legal advice. But beware the costs can go crazy and you can have years of pointless mudslinging and its still not divorce!

Take any advice that suggests you leave the family home in advance of a conclusion with great care as leaving means she can string whole thing out for ages. But at the same time beware the possibility of a false accusation of assault that would have a barring order considered. S**t happens and all's fair in love and war.

I dont expect you to answer any of my questions in the forum, just pause for thought.

Courts are about law, not justice so dont expect any.

Payton

bjak wrote: »

Absolutely not an easy situation to be in and I really sympathise. You need to detach yourself from the reasons matters have reached this stage and decide what you want.

It seems to be generally accepted that the courts are more lenient towards women so you are the underdog before you start.

How do you see this working out financially - if you sell the current house, and split the proceeds will there be enough to buy 2 smaller places. Enough income for both + age to get a mortgage?

While the children are over 18, if any is in full time education there is a danger she could get to keep the house until the last one has finished education - how are you fixed in the meantime?

What are your income levels relative to each other? Will you have to pay maintenance to her for herself?

Will any of the kids in education live with you in the post separation situation - if not are you liable for child support and how much?

With a judicial separation, you are still legally married and the order sets out various legal requirements on maintenance expenses etc. It may include mutual exclusion orders. It is not divorce and either party can go to court to have the order varied. Once you decide broadly what you are looking for, then get legal advice. But beware the costs can go crazy and you can have years of pointless mudslinging and its still not divorce!

Take any advice that suggests you leave the family home in advance of a conclusion with great care as leaving means she can string whole thing out for ages. But at the same time beware the possibility of a false accusation of assault that would have a barring order considered. S**t happens and all's fair in love and war.

I dont expect you to answer any of my questions in the forum, just pause for thought.

Courts are about law, not justice so dont expect any.

Some great points there and I've gone through them before with myself and herself but she couldn't see reason. I have detached myself from the reasons and I'm working on myself and the children, building their confidence back up.
I'm paid more than her (€5k more) but I pay all the bills, she looks after the weekly shopping
Our son starts college this week and that's paid for this yr, and I'll continue paying for it for the remaining 4 yrs. But the time is about to come when I'll request that everything is split equal.
She tried to have a safety order against me yrs ago but dropped it when she was told by her legal team that there was (and never was) any grounds for the case just someone put it into her head.
I have offed to buy her half of the family hoe to which I'm still waiting on a reply.
I have no intention of leaving the family home and our children (18+23) have asked me not too, they have lost all faith in their mother.
As I said I don't really have a choice in this, I have tried everything as she wouldn't deal with it amicably between us. For the sake of myself and the children I need to remove us from this once and for all and get on with our future.

sffc

Just to clarify my previous post . You must normally be "separated" a year before you can APPLY for a Judicial Separation bar a few exceptions see below from Citizens Info website :


You cannot apply for a judicial separation when you already have in force aseparation agreement which has been made an order of court. An application for a judicial separation must be based on one of the following six grounds:

• One party has committed adultery
• One party has behaved in such a way that it would be unreasonable to expect the other spouse to continue to live with them
• One party has deserted the other for at least one year at the time of the application
• The parties have live apart from one another for one year up to the time of the application and both parties agree to the decree being granted
• The parties have lived apart from one another for at least three years at the time of the application for the decree (whether or not both parties agree to the decree being granted)
• The court considers that a normal marital relationship has not existed between the spouses for at least one year before the date of the decree .
• http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/judicial_separation.htmlapplication

sffc

@ Payton

The good news is that because of your circumstance (from what you write ) you will not have to endure many of the complications that other posters to this forum have to work around . Your mortgage is paid , you both work and are relatively equally paid , your "kids" are in one case emancipated and in the other just a few years away . No Access isssues or spousal maintainance . Crucially from what you write they are supportive of you . This means either your wife is not speaking ill of you of if she is they are paying no heed . Do NOT speak ill of your wife to them if you can at all - it will not help . Keep your dignity .
Now the bad news , hate to be the one to break it to you but your chances of a 50/50 split are slim and none my friend imo and your wife knows it , hence "she wont see reason". She can and will argue that she contributed more to the household by working inside as well as outside the home . If you continue to keep the 50/50 line up you will get nowhere and end up spending money that should be spent on your younger "child's " education . I cannot imagine your wife has an appetite to spend this money either on a judicial spearation barring she has been accepted for legal aid . I cannot believe either that she wants the status quo to remain or does she ? why ???
You need to get an idea of what she wants - Relax, take it as an opening postition and get legal advice . Your opening position is for all intents and purposes 50/50 . The eventual outcome will be short of this but ask yourself this - if you got SAY 40% what would that buy you ? Maybe a two bed apt . Think of your new life with you kids coming to visit and you leading your own life . MY solicitor kept telling me to "keep my eye on the prize " - she was right !
In my own case I'm renting a one bed flat but I've havent been as happy in I dont know how long !

Payton

sffc wrote: »

@ Payton

The good news is that because of your circumstance (from what you write ) you will not have to endure many of the complications that other posters to this forum have to work around . Your mortgage is paid , you both work and are relatively equally paid , your "kids" are in one case emancipated and in the other just a few years away . No Access isssues or spousal maintainance . Crucially from what you write they are supportive of you . This means either your wife is not speaking ill of you of if she is they are paying no heed . Do NOT speak ill of your wife to them if you can at all - it will not help . Keep your dignity .
Now the bad news , hate to be the one to break it to you but your chances of a 50/50 split are slim and none my friend imo and your wife knows it , hence "she wont see reason". She can and will argue that she contributed more to the household by working inside as well as outside the home . If you continue to keep the 50/50 line up you will get nowhere and end up spending money that should be spent on your younger "child's " education . I cannot imagine your wife has an appetite to spend this money either on a judicial spearation barring she has been accepted for legal aid . I cannot believe either that she wants the status quo to remain or does she ? why ???
You need to get an idea of what she wants - Relax, take it as an opening postition and get legal advice . Your opening position is for all intents and purposes 50/50 . The eventual outcome will be short of this but ask yourself this - if you got SAY 40% what would that buy you ? Maybe a two bed apt . Think of your new life with you kids coming to visit and you leading your own life . MY solicitor kept telling me to "keep my eye on the prize " - she was right !
In my own case I'm renting a one bed flat but I've havent been as happy in I dont know how long !

I know she's not keen on the breakup of the home for the kids sake but that's for now but the offer is there! I have never bad mouthed her to the kids and never would. I've kept my dignity through the last yr, with the help of great family and friends to vent every now and then.
As for legal aid she is over the threshold of disposal income which is set at €18k
If she wants the status quo to remain is a tough one to answer.
Your through the other side, and happy.

bjak

Couple of further points.

Split expenditure equally - no better time to start than right now.

"She won't see reason" - Oh she sees it allright, just that its not in her favour. Some women may be conditioned into thinking they can keep the house & kids and you will vanish but pay maintenance and legal costs. Reality can come as quite a shock to many.

Beware - You can sign an agreement yourselves particularly to do with the house but if both parties have not (or says they have not) taken proper legal advice, it can be set aside by the courts. Absolute no no.

If she will not be bought out, is price the issue or will she buy you out?

Is she getting legal advice that you dont know about - In the safety order escapade, can you remember who was the solicitor then and find out what their form is in separation cases. Some are very very agressive with protracted dealings that you pay for. Female solicitor for "empathy" (almost a friend) and "get them what they are entitled to" - and then a bill for €30k or more at the end.

You may be making the mistake of being too open with her, and as a consequence need to take it to a formal level. If you do , have no further discussions. In a way you may have become invisible to her and in her mind if she ignores you long enough you will go away. The situation is clearly not causing her the anxiety that it is causing you.

I would not rule out 50/50 split but no guarantees.

I am no fan of solicitors but in the circumstances you need to get one right away. From what you describe, an amicable solution is unlikely.

Do some research to try to find a solicitor who will focus as another poster wrote "on the prize". Don't get dragged in a "he did/she said" routine in correspondence. The courts don't care.

For the court action you will need to prepare a statement of assets and liabilities and a statement of means - income and expenditure on a weekly/monthly/annual basis. I'm not sure if you have set a precedent if you are paying more than half the expenses already which is why I suggested getting to 50/50 pronto.

sffc

Payton wrote: »

As for legal aid she is over the threshold of disposal income which is set at €18k

You can't say that with full certainty . Dont mean to be sexist but women are much better at bills reciepts etc. than men . She could probably get her disposable income down to 18k faster than you can say affidavit .
This is all academic however because you are missing the basic point . You aren't saying lets sell the house and split 50/50 , you are asking her to move out - something you won't do yourself . Despite this you aren't offering her any extra incentive . Somehow I doubt if she would go if you offered her 70% such is the female nesting instinct . I've known cases where women have accepted little or no child maintainance just to get the family home in their name . Having said that its worth a try through the right channels but 50/50 seems unrealistic .
I havent seen in any of your posts that you have sought legal advice . You need to and fast . 1 - you will get a professional assesment of your options and 2 - your wife will know you are serious . ( I'd be fairly confident she has got hers already ) . Best of luck .
By the way I amn't out the other side yet . I'm hopefully getting a separation agreement signed in the week or two after a year of mediation - solicitors letters etc . I moved out quickly - had I stayed bad feeling would have been worse and my children are young . I cant imagine dealing with this under one roof but every case is different . Again best of luck .

PS. Agree totally with policy of not saying too much . Its very easy to get (a) sidetracked into silly rows and (b) giving away concessions which will be remembered and used against you .

Payton

sffc wrote: »

Payton wrote: »

As for legal aid she is over the threshold of disposal income which is set at €18k

You can't say that with full certainty . Dont mean to be sexist but women are much better at bills reciepts etc. than men . She could probably get her disposable income down to 18k faster than you can say affidavit .
This is all academic however because you are missing the basic point . You aren't saying lets sell the house and split 50/50 , you are asking her to move out - something you won't do yourself . Despite this you aren't offering her any extra incentive . Somehow I doubt if she would go if you offered her 70% such is the female nesting instinct . I've known cases where women have accepted little or no child maintainance just to get the family home in their name . Having said that its worth a try through the right channels but 50/50 seems unrealistic .
I havent seen in any of your posts that you have sought legal advice . You need to and fast . 1 - you will get a professional assesment of your options and 2 - your wife will know you are serious . ( I'd be fairly confident she has got hers already ) . Best of luck .
By the way I amn't out the other side yet . I'm hopefully getting a separation agreement signed in the week or two after a year of mediation - solicitors letters etc . I moved out quickly - had I stayed bad feeling would have been worse and my children are young . I cant imagine dealing with this under one roof but every case is different . Again best of luck .

PS. Agree totally with policy of not saying too much . Its very easy to get (a) sidetracked into silly rows and (b) giving away concessions which will be remembered and used against you .

She is totally hopeless at bill etc catalogue companies chasing her, that's why I look after all the utility bills
I have sought legal advice and he urged me to try everything instead of going down the legal road but I am where iam. She did get legal advice.
I have asked for mediation which after saying she would do, she didn't even register for it.
Selling the family home was her idea, she wanted rid of the house hence I offered to buy her out, we only paid £21k punts for the house.
I understand your not out for any side and you have thrown some good points out there for other posters/viewers.

spokesman

Upwardsfromhere wrote: »

The man I married and I agreed to split up late last year. Like many other couples, we haven't been able to afford to move out of our home yet but both of us work away a lot so it hasn't been too tough.

Can't believe how long the process is here, I really want to just move on, but with a divorce being at least 3 years away it feels like I'm trapped as his wife. We were married quite a long time, tried to fix things but we actually don't even like each other any more.

Will be eligible for a legal separation in a few weeks, I feel I need to get this because it's the only way we can actually move on. There are no children involved but there is property. I haven't seen a solicitor yet, is this the next step? It might seem the obvious thing but to be honest the whole thing terrifies me, I don't want it to be acrimonious and dirty, but I can't see how we can agree a split of property/maintenance without a professional looking after my best interests (he earns considerably more than me).

If you hire a solicitor, first and foremost is to get an estimate of costs, too many solicitors still do not do this, you find out a few months down the road, you say it to them and hey presto....they ll say...pay what you owe me or you won't get the file. By law they are required to do this. Another dangerous word can be negotiation, what this means is sending letters back and forth to each other's solicitors and building up a nice bill. My advice is state what you want, stick to your guns, if you don't get an agreement, go to court.

sffc

spokesman wrote: »

If you hire a solicitor, first and foremost is to get an estimate of costs, too many solicitors still do not do this, you find out a few months down the road, you say it to them and hey presto....they ll say...pay what you owe me or you won't get the file. By law they are required to do this. Another dangerous word can be negotiation, what this means is sending letters back and forth to each other's solicitors and building up a nice bill. My advice is state what you want, stick to your guns, if you don't get an agreement, go to court.

Totally agree with you except for the last two sentences . Negotiation (in moderation) is the lifeblood of any agreement .The door never totally closes in Irish separations/ divorces and the best way to make sure neither party want to reopen an agreement is having it agreed by negotiation . Statistics prove this .
Your attitude to costs also puzzles me . It's not as simple a demanding your own way and the "go to court " if you dont get it . Both myself and my wife have been independentily quoted 1.5k and 3.5k to be a respondent and applicant respectively in a Deed of Separation agreement . This pales into insignifigance compared to 15 - 20 k for a Judicial separation . (That,s each by the way ) . Common sense would surely dictate that if everyone (respondent and appllicant ) " stated what they want - stuck to their guns and if they didnt get it go to court " that 99% of separations would end up in court and the courts (and solicitors pockets) would be full to bursting . Yet you warn against the cost of a few letters during negotiation???

stargazer 68

Quick question - probably a daft one but anyway. When you engage a solicitor to draw up a separation agreement - access etc - do they automatically include financial arrangements i.e get financial accounts etc from both parties to establish maintenance or does that information have to be requested by you to be included?

Abi

Dovies wrote: »

Quick question - probably a daft one but anyway. When you engage a solicitor to draw up a separation agreement - access etc - do they automatically include financial arrangements i.e get financial accounts etc from both parties to establish maintenance or does that information have to be requested by you to be included?

A separation agreement is the friendlier version of a judicial separation. They will both need to include arrangements for any children involved, maintenance, property, savings, pensions etc. In a separation agreement, nobody is contesting anything and all happy with the decision they've come to. A judicial is the same thing, but the couple are not in agreement over some elements of the separation. The latter can be a long drawn out affair, and unfortunately more of an expense to the couple involved. Mediation is a good way to go if you want to sort things out amongst yourselves then go down the sep agreement route. Hope this helps.

bjak

sffc wrote: »

This pales into insignifigance compared to 15 - 20 k for a Judicial separation

Totally agree on nailing down an estimate of costs at the outset. In fact if solicitor wont do that, get another one. Our learned friends tend to quote a figure and then lob VAT on top so be clear on whats included. Is the figure for their fee only or are expenses additional. If manure is flying and it gets to court, 20k will not be the upper limit either as proceedings can involve a barrister.

OP, ultimately if a deal is to made without a judge its best to make it between you as you already know. If the kids are adults, your incomes are broadly equal, it come down to what to do with the house, sell independently or one sell to the other. The next fun stage will be the valuation. If your solicitor can stick to this narrow area it should be straightforward.

The arrival of the court papers to her by registered post may bring about a sense of realism that you want the judicial separation. She's probably in denial about it and a lot more besides.

sffc

To answer the question re means. What you are talking about is an "Affidavit of Means " . No it is not obligitary to swap them between parties but most solicitors insist it's done. Mine certainly did . Makes sense really because there is a danger the other side can come back later claiming they want the agreement torn up because they weren't aware of your means. Hope this helps. Feel free to pm.

spokesman

sffc wrote: »

Totally agree with you except for the last two sentences . Negotiation (in moderation) is the lifeblood of any agreement .The door never totally closes in Irish separations/ divorces and the best way to make sure neither party want to reopen an agreement is having it agreed by negotiation . Statistics prove this .
Your attitude to costs also puzzles me . It's not as simple a demanding your own way and the "go to court " if you dont get it . Both myself and my wife have been independentily quoted 1.5k and 3.5k to be a respondent and applicant respectively in a Deed of Separation agreement . This pales into insignifigance compared to 15 - 20 k for a Judicial separation . (That,s each by the way ) . Common sense would surely dictate that if everyone (respondent and appllicant ) " stated what they want - stuck to their guns and if they didnt get it go to court " that 99% of separations would end up in court and the courts (and solicitors pockets) would be full to bursting . Yet you warn against the cost of a few letters during negotiation???

Hi,Your missing the point. Its all very well when a person gets the quote from the solicitor as to the estimate of costs. Im talking about the pwople that go to solicitors, hire the solicitor, and the solicitor does not give an estimate of costs at the first meeting. Remember that the solicitor is required by law to give these estimates, so once the solicitor has you on his books, this is where the "negotiation" comes in, they ll swan off letters to and fro and build up the bill. Its all very well negotiating when you know what its costing you, and you can draw the line when you want. Solicitors will then recite all sorts of rules and laws when their owed money, but get amnesia when you hire them. But for the record, im sure its only a minority of solicitors that engage in this trap. Hence...........get the estimate of costs first.;)

sffc

Absolutely mate - get an estimate IN WRITING is what I did. I said I totally agreed with your first points on estimates and still do.

spokesman

sffc wrote: »

Absolutely mate - get an estimate IN WRITING is what I did. I said I totally agreed with your first points on estimates and still do.

Sound

2016question

Would love to know your situation now?? Have things worked out