Game birds for training dogs. Pros & Cons.

landkeeper

let me get this right your suggesting taking a pen bred bird, dizzying it letting a dog flush it and your buddy shooting it is that even legal cos it sure dosn't sit well with me

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

let me get this right your suggesting taking a pen bred bird, dizzying it letting a dog flush it and your buddy shooting it is that even legal cos it sure dosn't sit well with me

What would you suggest just hunt them up !

Red partrige won't survive in our weather , so it more humaine to shoot them and use them as a meal then just let them die !

You getting the most out of the bird that way !

You training the dog , and getting the Dinner !

landkeeper

rubbish , they can will and do survive here , what you are suggesting doing is borderline illegal immoral and reprehensible imho
whatever about rearing releasing and giving a fair chance to a bird that knows where it is and where to find food
but to dizzy them and use them for glorified target practise is downright wrong and absolute ammunition for the anti brigade :mad: it's about as right as releasing birds out of crates to be shot at

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

rubbish , they can will and do survive here , what you are suggesting doing is borderline illegal immoral and reprehensible imho
whatever about rearing releasing and giving a fair chance to a bird
but to dizzy them and use them for glorified target practise is downright wrong and absolute ammunition for the anti brigade :mad:

dizzying them does not have the same effect as with a pigeon where they stay in the one spot , it just allows you to put them down with out them taken off , we have often hunted a whole bog for them all to have ran to the end of it and got up , and clearly you have no expeirence with these birds .

gray leg partrige survive in our conditions but red leg do not , they cant hanlde our winter , and are not native birds .

do you think that partrige driven shoots , that these birds are all kept fed in the wild like pheasents , there not there kept in a shed and let out of boxs towards the guns . so dont start jumping down my neck about something you know nothing about .

TriggerPL

http://www.markcarmodyphotography.com/red-legged-partridge

read this and pull back in your horns

landkeeper

i know plenty about the subject i did it for a living for long enough and still rear and release enough birds of different species a year to know that they can survive a winter here easily enough
and yes there are plenty of shoots here that release the partridge with pheasants and treat them exactly the same they are hard to hold i'll admit that but they don't just die cos it's winter
but that's not you were talking about

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

i know plenty about the subject i did it for a living for long enough and still rear and release enough birds of different species a year to know that they can survive a winter here easily enough
and yes there are plenty of shoots here that release the partridge with pheasants and treat them exactly the same they are hard to hold i'll admit that but they don't just die cos it's winter
but that's not you were talking about

that is wat im talking about you can not put a partrige on the ground with out dizzy it or it will take off like a bomb , it wont stay in the one spot so you will have to hunt for it , and if you realese 20 birds you will probally shoot about 6 , so show me where this is diferent from shooting pen reared pheasents .

we released about 100 red leggs a year during the season and last year we started using a call up box because we were loosing birds out of a face with the weather .

four of us use the ground for training and 2 weeks after the day we would release them they were not been seen , and my spaniel pick two dead ones on the bog as a result of the weather .

we have feeders and grit everyting for these birds to survive and they didnt . so we started the call box and lost about 10 last year the rest were caught up .

landkeeper

go hunt a released bird give it time to learn where it is where to fly where food water and shelter are i have no problem with that
take a bird out of a cage/crate box release it give it an hour then go try to hunt flush and shoot it i do have a problem with
maybe it's how i was brought up and the values instilled in me by father and grandfather
it's about respect for your quarry , however you dress up what your doing or justify it to yourself i cannot agree with it and i know a lot of others who wouldn't either

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

go hunt a released bird give it time to learn where it is where to fly where food water and shelter are i have no problem with that
take a bird out of a cage/crate box release it give it an hour then go try to hunt flush and shoot it i do have a problem with
maybe it's how i was brought up and the values instilled in me by father and grandfather
it's about respect for your quarry , however you dress up what your doing or justify it to yourself i cannot agree with it and i know a lot of others who wouldn't either

hold on a min im giving a way for charlie to train his dog , dont dare question my respect for quarry , you say the part of put in bold , so you telling me you release your birds and dont put out water for them or springs feeders !

landkeeper

i'll rephrase it
i have no problem going and shooting a released bird that has had time to adapt to it surroundings knowing where food and water are in it's home territory that knows where it is flying too when flushed ,
and no i wouldn't release any bird without first making sure it knew where food water and shelter were


and i do question, simply dumping birds out giving them an hour then hunting them shows total lack of respect, as all you are doing is using them as a living target they don't know where they are going /doing and by your own admission die if not recaptured
whereas if you released them properly and once they had acclimatised to their surroundings hunted that area then fair enough they have fair law
im begining to agree with some of my shooting/keepering friends the movement and release of live gamebirds should be illegal two months from the start of the season to the end

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

i'll rephrase it
i have no problem going and shooting a released bird that has had time to adapt to it surroundings knowing where food and water are in it's home territory that knows where it is flying too when flushed ,
and no i wouldn't release any bird without first making sure it knew where food water and shelter were


and i do question, simply dumping birds out giving them an hour then hunting them shows total lack of respect, as all you are doing is using them as a living target they don't know where they are going /doing and by your own admission die if not recaptured
whereas if you released them properly and once they had acclimatised to their surroundings hunted that area then fair enough they have fair law
im begining to agree with some of my shooting/keepering friends the movement and release of live gamebirds should be illegal two months from the start of the season to the end

didnt see you ans my question do you put out feeders for them and water .

landkeeper

of course ,that is a given


''''and no i wouldn't release any bird without first making sure it knew where food water and shelter were''''

blackstairsboy

I am presuming that if anybody goes down the route of assasinating partridge in the name of gundog training that they will only do it during the season which runs from the first of November to the end of January.

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

of course ,that is a given


''''and no i wouldn't release any bird without first making sure it knew where food water and shelter were''''

your right that is a giving because everyone knows that a pen reared bird will need a food source to surivive ,

and when you out on the first of november , let me guess you dont go hunting near the feeders to give them a chance yea
you can play the high ground here but at the end of the day what we do isnt very different , i release birds for our trails and to keep pheasents numbers up , you do it for birds to shoot and to keep number up im guessing.

i release my pheasents like everyone else , with feeders out and drinkers .
Personally i rearly shoot pheasents or partridge for that matter .

but we differ on partridge and from my expeirences with them which is about 7 years now , they will not surivive in our weather , and if left out with food sources you will not see these birds after few weeks esp if it the rain that we are so use to .

TriggerPL

blackstairsboy wrote: »

I am presuming that if anybody goes down the route of assasinating partridge in the name of gundog training that they will only do it during the season which runs from the first of November to the end of January.

of course partridge have a season like every game bird .

daniels.ducks

TriggerPL wrote: »

http://www.markcarmodyphotography.com/red-legged-partridge

read this and pull back in your horns

This is a load of crap, this man is a photographer, presumably no experience in rearing birds.

TriggerPL wrote: »

gray leg partrige survive in our conditions but red leg do not , they cant hanlde our winter , and are not native birds .

In my experience, reds are hardier than greys when it comes to surviving.

TriggerPL wrote: »

Red partrige won't survive in our weather , so it more humaine to shoot them and use them as a meal then just let them die !

False. I have red partridge running around the farm with the last few years. You'd see them feeding around the farm yard in hard winters.


In my opinion what you are suggesting is totally immoral. How do you go about dizzying a bird? You'd see some lazy gun clubs buying pheasants on the 31st of October, releasing them at dark and shooting them the next day. Do you think it's right?

TriggerPL

daniels.ducks wrote: »

TriggerPL wrote: »

http://www.markcarmodyphotography.com/red-legged-partridge

read this and pull back in your horns

This is a load of crap, this man is a photographer, presumably no experience in rearing birds.

TriggerPL wrote: »

gray leg partrige survive in our conditions but red leg do not , they cant hanlde our winter , and are not native birds .

In my experience, reds are hardier than greys when it comes to surviving.

TriggerPL wrote: »

Red partrige won't survive in our weather , so it more humaine to shoot them and use them as a meal then just let them die !

False. I have red partridge running around the farm with the last few years. You'd see them feeding around the farm yard in hard winters.


In my opinion what you are suggesting is totally immoral. How do you go about dizzying a bird? You'd see some lazy gun clubs buying pheasants on the 31st of October, releasing them at dark and shooting them the next day. Do you think it's right?

If these red legged are so plenty full round your farm put up a pic with a date , your the only person in Ireland with wild red legged !

Also asking how to dizzy a bird shows you know f all .

Immoral , some people think all hunting is immoral , it stupid comments like your that give ammo , how is it anymore immoral then releasing birds , or lamping a fox Trapping a mink , shooting a pigeon in a shed sitting on it nest .

Think before speaking ! I! But because it a game bird it immoral ! If that the case the person breeding these for gun club is immoral and ur immoral for buying them to shoot .

Where does it stop . What a joke !

blackstairsboy

TriggerPL wrote: »

If these red legged are so plenty full round your farm put up a pic with a date , your the only person in Ireland with wild red legged !

Also asking how to dizzy a bird shows you know f all .

Immoral , some people think all hunting is immoral , it stupid comments like your that give ammo , how is it anymore immoral then releasing birds , or lamping a fox Trapping a mink , shooting a pigeon in a shed sitting on it nest .

Think before speaking ! I! But because it a game bird it immoral ! If that the case the person breeding these for gun club is immoral and ur immoral for buying them to shoot .

Where does it stop . What a joke !

Look the point is you obviously cannot distinguish between crop or livestock protection and sporting shooting. Most shooters like myself like to treat gamebirds with the respect that they deserve. You do not and thats grand whatever keeps you happy.
Don't however try and justify to me what you are advocating doing because you will never convince me that it is ok to dizzy birds to shoot in order to train a springer. And for the record that exercise will do nothing for a springer in my opinion it is a pointless exercise.

TriggerPL

blackstairsboy wrote: »

TriggerPL wrote: »

If these red legged are so plenty full round your farm put up a pic with a date , your the only person in Ireland with wild red legged !

Also asking how to dizzy a bird shows you know f all .

Immoral , some people think all hunting is immoral , it stupid comments like your that give ammo , how is it anymore immoral then releasing birds , or lamping a fox Trapping a mink , shooting a pigeon in a shed sitting on it nest .

Think before speaking ! I! But because it a game bird it immoral ! If that the case the person breeding these for gun club is immoral and ur immoral for buying them to shoot .

Where does it stop . What a joke !

Look the point is you obviously cannot distinguish between crop or livestock protection and sporting shooting. Most shooters like myself like to treat gamebirds with the respect that they deserve. You do not and thats grand whatever keeps you happy.
Don't however try and justify to me what you are advocating doing because you will never convince me that it is ok to dizzy birds to shoot in order to train a springer. And for the record that exercise will do nothing for a springer in my opinion it is a pointless exercise.

And you distinguishing between game birds and crop protection helps you to think your mmorally right in shooting . And how does hunting flushing , sitting your dog to the wistle and sending him for a retrieve not help him with training !

blackstairsboy

TriggerPL wrote: »

And you distinguishing between game birds and crop protection helps you to think your mmorally right in shooting . And how does hunting flushing , sitting your dog to the wistle and sending him for a retrieve not help him with training !

As far as I know questioning the morality of hunting is a no no topic in the hunting forum so I won't go into it. I have made my point take it or leave it.

TriggerPL

blackstairsboy wrote: »

TriggerPL wrote: »

And you distinguishing between game birds and crop protection helps you to think your mmorally right in shooting . And how does hunting flushing , sitting your dog to the wistle and sending him for a retrieve not help him with training !

As far as I know questioning the morality of hunting is a no no topic in the hunting forum so I won't go into it. I have made my point take it or leave it.

If that is the case then I have ans Charlie question with a legal way of doing what is asked . And shouldn't have to explain !

Usual **** around here everyone is out to argue , it impossible to keep a thread on track .

Didn see one of ye offering a training method for Charlie yet !

landkeeper

people only argue because they see something being suggested that sticks in their throat
if you can't see why what you are suggesting gets fellas backs up then i think you should take a step back and look at what you posted
even my missus who has her own spaniel and still goes beating on driven shoots on a regular basis read your suggestion and was appalled

it's called fair game what next release a pigeon from a box trap that was called sport once too

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

people only argue because they see something being suggested that sticks in their throat
if you can't see why what you are suggesting gets fellas backs up then i think you should take a step back and look at what you posted
even my missus who has her own spaniel and still goes beating on driven shoots on a regular basis read your suggestion and was appalled

it's called fair game what next release a pigeon from a box trap that was called sport once too

Well then your missus might want to check her compass , if she think driving a 100 pheasants into a line of 8 guns and has a problem a walked up dazzed partridge .

daniels.ducks

TriggerPL wrote: »

If these red legged are so plenty full round your farm put up a pic with a date , your the only person in Ireland with wild red legged !

Also asking how to dizzy a bird shows you know f all .

Immoral , some people think all hunting is immoral , it stupid comments like your that give ammo , how is it anymore immoral then releasing birds , or lamping a fox Trapping a mink , shooting a pigeon in a shed sitting on it nest .

Think before speaking ! I! But because it a game bird it immoral ! If that the case the person breeding these for gun club is immoral and ur immoral for buying them to shoot .

Where does it stop . What a joke !

If they are dying due to bad weather take a pic of the dead ones!! Partridge are hard to keep, that could be the reason why they dissappear.

I know **** all? I presume dizzying is hitting them on the head to slow them down? Whatever way you do it it is putting the bird at a disadvantage and you think it's alright to shoot it then? Please can you explain what dizzying is?

Because when you release birds maybe in June/July they have time to get used to the habitat, they have time to feed. Releasing them from a crate and then 'dizzying' them is not sportsmanship. It's plain cruelty. Why don't you suggest tying them down with a rope and then shooting them?

landkeeper

i see no point in taking this any further if you see no problem in shooting a bird an hour or so after releasing it into a totally strange environment and landscape the it's a sad affair
daniel 'dizzying' is gently rotating a bird in your hands in a circular motion with it's head under it's wing it will become 'sleepy' and if set down on the ground stay there for quite a while before it stirs

daniels.ducks

landkeeper wrote: »

i see no point in taking this any further if you see no problem in shooting a bird an hour or so after releasing it into a totally strange environment and landscape the it's a sad affair
daniel 'dizzying' is gently rotating a bird in your hands in a circular motion with it's head under it's wing it will become 'sleepy' and if set down on the ground stay there for quite a while before it stirs

Oh I know what it is now. Puts chickens to sleep, never worked with pheasant poults for me though :P

TriggerPL

landkeeper wrote: »

daniel 'dizzying' is gently rotating a bird in your hands in a circular motion with it's head under it's wing it will become 'sleepy' and if set down on the ground stay there for quite a while before it stirs

Normally done with pigeon , with partridge I don't put the wing over there head , that keeps them in the one spot , when I put the partridge down they tip off but aren't Inclinded to fly the min you release them , releaseing 20 your lucky to hunt up 6 , and rest you can catch up or leave it your choice

TriggerPL

daniels.ducks wrote: »

landkeeper wrote: »

i see no point in taking this any further if you see no problem in shooting a bird an hour or so after releasing it into a totally strange environment and landscape the it's a sad affair
daniel 'dizzying' is gently rotating a bird in your hands in a circular motion with it's head under it's wing it will become 'sleepy' and if set down on the ground stay there for quite a while before it stirs

Oh I know what it is now. Puts chickens to sleep, never worked with pheasant poults for me though :P

Can I ask y you tryed it with phesents ?

daniels.ducks

TriggerPL wrote: »

Can I ask y you tryed it with phesents ?

Yeah sure! Just out of boredom really while putting bits on them.

daniels.ducks

TriggerPL wrote: »

Normally done with pigeon , with partridge I don't put the wing over there head , that keeps them in the one spot , when I put the partridge down they tip off but aren't Inclinded to fly the min you release them , releaseing 20 your lucky to hunt up 6 , and rest you can catch up or leave it your choice

You actually make them dizzy so. It would take a lot of shaking to stop them from flying.

TriggerPL wrote: »

Well then your missus might want to check her compass , if she think driving a 100 pheasants into a line of 8 guns and has a problem a walked up dazzed partridge .

Different kettle of fish altogether Trigger. Although driven shoots very in the way they are run. A duck shoot that I know of brings ducks in a trailer up to a hill and opens the doors and leaves them off in sixes and sevens.

blackstairsboy

TriggerPL wrote: »

If that is the case then I have ans Charlie question with a legal way of doing what is asked . And shouldn't have to explain !

Usual **** around here everyone is out to argue , it impossible to keep a thread on track .

Didn see one of ye offering a training method for Charlie yet !

Leaving the morality out of it for a minute and looking at the dog training side of things so. I have said it is a pointless exercise. Reason being if you follow the law and only do it during the prescribed season with a partridge then what is the point of doing it when you could take the dog out and hunt it let it flush a pheasant and let him retrieve it. Dog will learn far more because he has to really hunt the bird and find it of his own accord. You will also have to leave the dog to it and will not be able to direct him onto the bird because you do not know where it is. Also my number 1 reason would be if the dog is not ready for this he will not find the bird so it cannot be rushed. The dog will find birds when he is ready so he is dictating the pace of his training and not the handler. Simulating things may mean that the dog may only bump the bird and not really hunt it which means he learns zilch. Also he may peg the bird and kill it and become hard mouthed which means not only does he learn zilch he has in fact gone backwards. Allowing the dog to do it in his own time means that you will finish up with a more well rounded dog and a sounder trained dog.