Faction fighting

Fuinseog

Does anyone know any good book or article on faction fighting. there was a good documentary on the subject on TG4, but it concentrated mostly on the south. its a pity TG4 are so hard com by. the odd one is on youtube.

apparently the shillelagh was used as a weapon. I always thought it wa s a touristic invention.

who the fug

These is a book about, read it many years ago from a the local library

Can't for the life of me remember its name


Fascinating stuff, they use to hollow out the heads of the sticks and fill them with lead.

lots of them happened around west cork and south kerry

Maudi

who the fug wrote: »

These is a book about, read it many years ago from a the local library

Can't for the life of me remember its name


Fascinating stuff, they use to hollow out the heads of the sticks and fill them with lead.

lots of them happened around west cork and south kerry

The glendalough pattern days were notorious for their faction fights too.

SaoriseBiker

Appearently Donnybrook in what was then a village outside of the city of Dublin had a fair which was notorious for faction fighting and has even given rise to the word a "Donnybrook" which even crossed the Atlantic to America to describe an altercation -



http://www.wordnik.com/words/donnybrook A brawl or fracas or scene of chaos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnybrook_Fair

SaoriseBiker

Faction fighting took on a particuliarly vicious and violent aspect around Monaghan, Down and Armagh between between Catholic and Protestants with various names such as the Defenders, ( Catholics) versus Orangemen and Peep O' Day Boys ( Protestants). Naturally their are all sorts of allegations as to whom started it and who did what etc, but it seems much of the cause of at times very deadly feuding, was due to the Peep O' Day Boys early in the morning attacking Catholic houses smashing weaving machines under the pretext of looking for arms :rolleyes: etc and seemed to carry these attacks out with the local authorites turning a blind eye if not aiding and abetting them at times. Even the titles of the two groups, Peep O' Day Boys i.e. sneaking around attacking people at unsuspecting times and Defenders i.e. defending those under attack, which indicates to a degree the nature and aims of both.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/ashorthistory/archive/intro147.shtml

Fuinseog

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Appearently Donnybrook in what was then a village outside of the city of Dublin had a fair which was notorious for faction fighting and has even given rise to the word a "Donnybrook" which even crossed the Atlantic to America to describe an altercation -



http://www.wordnik.com/words/donnybrook A brawl or fracas or scene of chaos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnybrook_Fair

a donnybrook is also an expression in Oz.

i am not sure but the faction fighting seems to have been a matter of honour among different villages.
its still maintained by the travelling community.

BornToKill

Good article on faction fighting in E Limerick / W Tipperary. From the yearbook of the village of Doon.

RDM_83 again

They used to have this book (I think) in the Ilac center library if thats any use to you

"Irish Gangs and Stick-Fighting In The Works of William Carleton, is a collection of stories about Irish stick-fighters, written in the 19th century, by the Irish author William Carleton"

http://www.xlibrispublishing.co.uk/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=11114

Fuinseog

RDM_83 again wrote: »

They used to have this book (I think) in the Ilac center library if thats any use to you

"Irish Gangs and Stick-Fighting In The Works of William Carleton, is a collection of stories about Irish stick-fighters, written in the 19th century, by the Irish author William Carleton"

http://www.xlibrispublishing.co.uk/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=11114

thanks, must check that out. I heard somewhere that stick fighting was almost like a martial art and as guns were forbidden it was the main way to defend yourself.

pedroeibar1

Faction fighting was a sort of 'football hooliganism' of the day but death was not uncommon, nor were the combatants always male. It was almost a national pastime among the ‘lower classes’ throughout the country although in Dublin students from Trinity College regularly waged war on the various Guilds and the Guilds on each other.
Elsewhere in the country gangs from rival towns and villages regularly fought on weekends. May Day seemed to be the opening of the season. Tipperary people were known as the ‘stone throwers’ and faction fighting was particularly prevalent in W Tipp and East Limerick, as qutoted by BTK above. In Cork it was the gangs of Fair Hill / Fair Lane against the gangs of Blackpool.

Tucky’s book "The City and County of Cork Remembered" c.1830 has several examples:-
1769 March 5.- Sunday, there was a desperate battle at between the rabble of Fair Lane and Blackpool.
1772 March 8.- ........... The evening of the same day, to use the words of the newspaper, was concluded in a most pious and devout manner by the warlike sons and daughters of Fair Lane and Blackpool, who met in a long field near Fair hill and fought with one another till night came on. The females were armed plentifully with stones, and the male combatants according to the Chewkee custom, with tomahawks of a new construction, which were about four feet long, and so dexterously contrived, having a hook and spear at the end, that any who missed grappling were sure to stab with the sharp end.
April 5.- The Fair lane and Blarney lane combatants met at Parkmore, according to weekly custom, and after an engagement of some hours, one Kelly received a stab from a tomahawk by which he was instantly killed, and many on both sides were wounded.
May 1.- Two men were killed in a riot between the same people, who renewed the fight after the internment of the deceased men on Sunday the 3d: on the following day they were going to hang a Blackpool man, when he was rescued by the army.

(Fair Lane is now Wolfe Tone Street)
Football and later the rules of the GAA have been suggested as one of the reasons for it dying out, but football matches mid-late 1800’s often ended in a melee as there usually was a fight to obtain the ball after the match was over. (‘They won the match but we won the ball!’)

who the fug

be great to Dunphy Giles et all doing the post match analysis

Fuinseog

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Faction fighting was a sort of 'football hooliganism' of the day but death was not uncommon, nor were the combatants always male. It was almost a national pastime among the ‘lower classes’ throughout the country although in Dublin students from Trinity College regularly waged war on the various Guilds and the Guilds on each other.
Elsewhere in the country gangs from rival towns and villages regularly fought on weekends. May Day seemed to be the opening of the season. Tipperary people were known as the ‘stone throwers’ and faction fighting was particularly prevalent in W Tipp and East Limerick, as qutoted by BTK above. In Cork it was the gangs of Fair Hill / Fair Lane against the gangs of Blackpool.

Tucky’s book "The City and County of Cork Remembered" c.1830 has several examples:-
1769 March 5.- Sunday, there was a desperate battle at between the rabble of Fair Lane and Blackpool.
1772 March 8.- ........... The evening of the same day, to use the words of the newspaper, was concluded in a most pious and devout manner by the warlike sons and daughters of Fair Lane and Blackpool, who met in a long field near Fair hill and fought with one another till night came on. The females were armed plentifully with stones, and the male combatants according to the Chewkee custom, with tomahawks of a new construction, which were about four feet long, and so dexterously contrived, having a hook and spear at the end, that any who missed grappling were sure to stab with the sharp end.
April 5.- The Fair lane and Blarney lane combatants met at Parkmore, according to weekly custom, and after an engagement of some hours, one Kelly received a stab from a tomahawk by which he was instantly killed, and many on both sides were wounded.
May 1.- Two men were killed in a riot between the same people, who renewed the fight after the internment of the deceased men on Sunday the 3d: on the following day they were going to hang a Blackpool man, when he was rescued by the army.

(Fair Lane is now Wolfe Tone Street)
Football and later the rules of the GAA have been suggested as one of the reasons for it dying out, but football matches mid-late 1800’s often ended in a melee as there usually was a fight to obtain the ball after the match was over. (‘They won the match but we won the ball!’)

not sure if they intended to kill but at the time an open head wound would easily get infected and in the absence of hospitals death was common.

thecommietommy

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Faction fighting was a sort of 'football hooliganism' of the day but death was not uncommon, nor were the combatants always male. It was almost a national pastime among the ‘lower classes’ throughout the country although in Dublin students from Trinity College regularly waged war on the various Guilds and the Guilds on each other.
Elsewhere in the country gangs from rival towns and villages regularly fought on weekends. May Day seemed to be the opening of the season. Tipperary people were known as the ‘stone throwers’ and faction fighting was particularly prevalent in W Tipp and East Limerick, as qutoted by BTK above. In Cork it was the gangs of Fair Hill / Fair Lane against the gangs of Blackpool.

Tucky’s book "The City and County of Cork Remembered" c.1830 has several examples:-
1769 March 5.- Sunday, there was a desperate battle at between the rabble of Fair Lane and Blackpool.
1772 March 8.- ........... The evening of the same day, to use the words of the newspaper, was concluded in a most pious and devout manner by the warlike sons and daughters of Fair Lane and Blackpool, who met in a long field near Fair hill and fought with one another till night came on. The females were armed plentifully with stones, and the male combatants according to the Chewkee custom, with tomahawks of a new construction, which were about four feet long, and so dexterously contrived, having a hook and spear at the end, that any who missed grappling were sure to stab with the sharp end.
April 5.- The Fair lane and Blarney lane combatants met at Parkmore, according to weekly custom, and after an engagement of some hours, one Kelly received a stab from a tomahawk by which he was instantly killed, and many on both sides were wounded.
May 1.- Two men were killed in a riot between the same people, who renewed the fight after the internment of the deceased men on Sunday the 3d: on the following day they were going to hang a Blackpool man, when he was rescued by the army.

(Fair Lane is now Wolfe Tone Street)
Football and later the rules of the GAA have been suggested as one of the reasons for it dying out, but football matches mid-late 1800’s often ended in a melee as there usually was a fight to obtain the ball after the match was over. (‘They won the match but we won the ball!’)

Yes, faction fighting does seem to have been the soccer hooliganism of the day ( the word hooligan itself has been said to have orginated in reference to a very rowdy Irish family called Hoolihan in London in the 18th century !! ) And also, the founding of the GAA helped to divert the rival energy instead into hurling and football although rival matches did and still do end up in a melee all the same. Appearently in at the Gaelic grounds in New York, up until the 70's it was standard that a patrol car or " Paddy wagon " was on stand by for the inevitable dust up !!!!

thecommietommy

Fuinseog wrote: »

not sure if they intended to kill but at the time an open head wound would easily get infected and in the absence of hospitals death was common.

It's something I often wonder about, if they were armed with such dangerous weapons ( almost like a medival battle) and proper medical services would have been scant, the deaths would have been numerous.

Jolly Red Giant

thecommietommy wrote: »

Yes, faction fighting does seem to have been the soccer hooliganism of the day ( the word hooligan itself has been said to have orginated in reference to a very rowdy Irish family called Hoolihan in London in the 18th century !! ) And also, the founding of the GAA helped to divert the rival energy instead into hurling and football although rival matches did and still do end up in a melee all the same. Appearently in at the Gaelic grounds in New York, up until the 70's it was standard that a patrol car or " Paddy wagon " was on stand by for the inevitable dust up !!!!

Much of the faction fighting in Ireland during the 19th century can be traced back to the class conflict between the Caravats (landless labourers and cottiers) and the Shanavests (tenant farmers) from 1808-1816. This conflict led to deep divisions in local communities, divisions that were to last for decades as the conflict between the rural classes continued right throughout the century.

Fuinseog

thecommietommy wrote: »

It's something I often wonder about, if they were armed with such dangerous weapons ( almost like a medival battle) and proper medical services would have been scant, the deaths would have been numerous.

comparisons have been made to football hooligans.
as far as I know football hooligans do not go out to kill anyone and there are rules attached. two groups of hools fight each other but also appear capable of joining forces to fight another group.