Selling a Northern reg car in the South

bucketybuck

Just looking for some advice.

I moved to Dublin from Northern Ireland two years ago. I still had my car, but because I have a company car I never changed the registration to southern plates or went through the VRT process.

The car was just sitting parked at my workplace so I decided to just sell it, which I have now done so. A guy came last week, paid cash and took it with him.

My question is, what now with regards to notifying the proper authorities that the car is sold? On the log book is a section for notifying the DVLA up North that the car has been permanently exported. I have sent that off, but still have the log book. My worry is that the export notification doesn't mention anything about the buyer, so if the car was caught speeding or something would the fine notice eventually come back to me.

I know the buyer is supposed to get it registered in his name, but what if he doesn't do it? Have I missed any steps, is there anything I can do to protect myself against a worst case scenario?

aujopimur

It was illegal for you to sell a foreign reg. car in the ROI.
It should have been declared for VRT, you might be lucky if the buyer just wants it for parts.
If it shows up on the system you could could
face a lot of hassle and expence.

aujopimur

aujopimur wrote: »

It was illegal for you to sell a foreign reg. car in the ROI.
It should have been declared for VRT, you might be lucky if the buyer just wants it for parts.
If it shows up on the system you could could
face a lot of hassle and expence.

Half the county has bought or sold a UK reg car over the last few years and I never heard of anyone getting hassle.

The buyer just fills out the permanent export part of the log book and sends it off then goes in and gets it vrt'd.

aujopimur

Boone Defeated Leakage wrote: »

Half the county has bought or sold a UK reg car over the last few years and I never heard of anyone getting hassle.

The buyer just fills out the permanent export part of the log book and sends it off then goes in and gets it vrt'd.

Only a registered motor trader can sell a foreign reg. car, but VRT and re reg. must be done before it changes hands.

bucketybuck

aujopimur wrote: »

It was illegal for you to sell a foreign reg. car in the ROI.
It should have been declared for VRT, you might be lucky if the buyer just wants it for parts.
If it shows up on the system you could could
face a lot of hassle and expence.

Why?

It was registered to my home address in Northern Ireland, functionally the sale was no different to the buyer coming to there and taking the car.

Are you saying that if a person from ROI crosses the border into NI, pays cash for a car and then brings it home with them, that the seller will face some sort of censure? From who?

bucketybuck

aujopimur wrote: »

Only a registered motor trader can sell a foreign reg. car, but VRT and re reg. must be done before it changes hands.

Have you a cite for the bolded section?

stealthyspeeder

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why?

It was registered to my home address in Northern Ireland, functionally the sale was no different to the buyer coming to there and taking the car.

functionally yes it was no different, legally, you broke the law.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Are you saying that if a person from ROI crosses the border into NI, pays cash for a car and then brings it home with them, that the seller will face some sort of censure? From who?

That is not a problem, that is what you should have done. There is no obligation on the seller in that circumstance. The obligation is then on the buyer who has imported the vehicle into the state.

You have brought the vehicle into the state (which you are perfectly entitled to do for the purposes of transport) but you then sold it, which means your purpose with the car in the state was not solely transportation, this is where you broke the law.

bucketybuck

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

You have brought the vehicle into the state (which you are perfectly entitled to do for the purposes of transport) but you then sold it, which means your purpose with the car in the state was not solely transportation, this is where you broke the law.

I appreciate the point.

However I think it would be next to impossible to prove that I brought the car into the state.

I sold it to a person from the state, but it was never actually driven down here beyond the trip down. For all intents and purposes I sold it from an address in Northern Ireland to a private buyer from the ROI.

stealthyspeeder

bucketybuck wrote: »

I appreciate the point.

However I think it would be next to impossible to prove that I brought the car into the state.

I sold it to a person from the state, but it was never actually driven down here beyond the trip down. For all intents and purposes I sold it from an address in Northern Ireland to a private buyer from the ROI.

True, impossible to prove, except if you were linked to this boards account where you have admitted doing something illegal! (not going to happen!)

Splitting hairs like, if the buyer gets done for VRT, he can say he bought the car in the state, this is true and puts the seller in the position where they have broken the law as they should have registered the car in the state before selling.

Divorce Referendum

bucketybuck wrote: »

Just looking for some advice.

I moved to Dublin from Northern Ireland two years ago. I still had my car, but because I have a company car I never changed the registration to southern plates or went through the VRT process.

The car was just sitting parked at my workplace so I decided to just sell it, which I have now done so. A guy came last week, paid cash and took it with him.

My question is, what now with regards to notifying the proper authorities that the car is sold? On the log book is a section for notifying the DVLA up North that the car has been permanently exported. I have sent that off, but still have the log book. My worry is that the export notification doesn't mention anything about the buyer, so if the car was caught speeding or something would the fine notice eventually come back to me.

I know the buyer is supposed to get it registered in his name, but what if he doesn't do it? Have I missed any steps, is there anything I can do to protect myself against a worst case scenario?

Did the buyer not take the V5 or even a cert of permanent export with them when they bought it?

bucketybuck

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Did the buyer not take the V5 or even a cert of permanent export with them when they bought it?

I didn't keep the log book with the car.

I filled in the export slip and sent it to DVLA, and I will forward the log book to the buyer as soon as I can. To complicate things I do not have his address. He is a friend of a co-worker, and at the time of payment he asked that I simply give the log book to his friend who would pass it on.

corktina

not your problem...if the guy wants to register it here, he will need the logbook. Youve told the DVLANI its been exported, what more can you do? The buyer SHOULD have taken the V5C with him, his lookout, not yours.

mgbgt1978

As far as the DVLA in NI are concerned the OP has simply exported the car himself. If any issues arise (speeding etc.) then the car is still owned by the OP as far as the authorities are concerned.
OP, your best bet is to get the buyers name and address asap and get the V5 to him, also both of you can sign a receipt and you each can keep a copy of this.

Marcusm

You and he have screwed up; you likely could have reregistered it VRT when you changed residence provided you had it and kept it for the requisite periods. They guy who has bought it from you will need to pay VRT to reregister it or could simply drive it on NI plates and expect you tO deal with fines. Although you have notified DVL(NI) of export, you have not rereg'd it. If the new buyer triggers fines in NI, they'll be sent to you!

mathepac

Here is what the buyer needs to do now to try to regularise the situation.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/coming_to_live_in_ireland/importing_car_into_ireland.html

The car was imported and sold illegally. It should have been imported and VRTd before sale here.

aujopimur

bucketybuck wrote: »

Have you a cite for the bolded section?

Unfortunately my computer skills are limited, only a dealer with a TAN no. can retain a car until he sells it, but he must pay VRT and re reg. before handing it over to the purchaser.
Regarding purchasing a car and importing it or buying an imported car, these are two different issues.
Sending the export slip to the DVLA was also incorrect as you sold the car to a non UK resident, you should have informed the DVLA by letter and given the complete V5 to the purchaser
I can assure you my first reply is correct.

bucketybuck

mathepac wrote: »

The car was imported and sold illegally. It should have been imported and VRTd before sale here.

I would state that the vehicle was not sold here. It was sold in Northern Ireland. I never imported the vehicle into the ROI and as such regulations such as VRT do not apply to myself. I do not see how any Motoring body could prove differently.

The onus is on the buyer to now import the car and pay the VRT. He is actually aware of this, we had discussed this and the price of the sale reflected the fact that the buyer would then need to pay VRT.

My only concern now is to ensure that I notify the correct people that I am no longer the registered keeper.

mgbgt1978

Technically you can't. When the new owner registers the car here (and pays the VRT) the revenue commisioners will notify the previous licencing authority of the change in ownership details.
But the new owner will need the V5 to do this.

mgbgt1978

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Technically you can't. When the new owner registers the car here (and pays the VRT) the revenue commisioners will notify the previous licencing authority of the change in ownership details.
But the new owner will need the V5 to do this.

I've seen cars registered with only the permanent export section so don't think the full V5 is required.

Also as an aside, its obviously a bit different for machines but we registered a tractor which we imported from Holland a few years ago with no documents at all. Just walked in with the chassis number.

aujopimur

bucketybuck wrote: »

I would state that the vehicle was not sold here. It was sold in Northern Ireland. I never imported the vehicle into the ROI and as such regulations such as VRT do not apply to myself. I do not see how any Motoring body could prove differently.

The onus is on the buyer to now import the car and pay the VRT. He is actually aware of this, we had discussed this and the price of the sale reflected the fact that the buyer would then need to pay VRT.

My only concern now is to ensure that I notify the correct people that I am no longer the registered keeper.

You seem to ignore the fact that you acted illgally when you sold a UK reg. car in the ROI.
It has been explained to you by myself and a few other posters what was wrong in the way you sold the car.
If had posted the query before you sold the car, those who knew the correct procedure would have put you on the track.
This is my final say on the matter, as things have been explained to you, but I think you don't want listen.


This

corktina

i read the OP as the car was in the Republic with you and you sold it whilst it was in the Republic...therefore you imported it. You can't legally do this.

mgbgt1978

Boone Defeated Leakage wrote: »

I've seen cars registered with only the permanent export section so don't think the full V5 is required.

Not as simple now that the NCT crowd have taken over the job;)

Marcusm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I would state that the vehicle was not sold here. It was sold in Northern Ireland. I never imported the vehicle into the ROI and as such regulations such as VRT do not apply to myself. I do not see how any Motoring body could prove differently.

The onus is on the buyer to now import the car and pay the VRT. He is actually aware of this, we had discussed this and the price of the sale reflected the fact that the buyer would then need to pay VRT.

My only concern now is to ensure that I notify the correct people that I am no longer the registered keeper.

Is your workplace in Republic or NI? If the former, you did import the car and sell it here.

stealthyspeeder

The OP broke the letter of the law, not the spirit of it, the end result is the same whether he drove up the M1 and did it in Newry or not. He did through ignorance not deliberately. I dont think he needs anymore chastising!

What he needs now, is advise on how to put the situation to rights!

bucketybuck

corktina wrote: »

i read the OP as the car was in the Republic with you and you sold it whilst it was in the Republic...therefore you imported it. You can't legally do this.

I don't deny that, here on the internet.

But from a legal point of view, if the RSA were to say I need to pay VRT, I would claim that I never imported the vehicle. It is registered to me at my Northern Ireland address, and I sold it as a resident of Northern Ireland. It was parked at my home address and hadn't been driven in Ireland.

I am open to correction, but I cannot see how they could prove otherwise?

Say I have another car at my NI address also. If I stick it on Donedeal today, and a man from Cavan crosses the border to buy it, paying in cash, should I have to import the car before I can sell to him?

mathepac

bucketybuck wrote: »

I would state that the vehicle was not sold here. ...

You might state a lot of things but it seems clear from your OP what happened :

bucketybuck wrote: »

... I moved to Dublin from Northern Ireland two years ago. I still had my car, but because I have a company car I never changed the registration to southern plates or went through the VRT process.

The car was just sitting parked at my workplace so I decided to just sell it, which I have now done so. ...

The fact that you could have imported the car free of VRT at the time is now irrelevant.

bucketybuck wrote: »

I would state that the vehicle was not sold here. It was sold in Northern Ireland. I never imported the vehicle into the ROI and as such regulations such as VRT do not apply to myself. I do not see how any Motoring body could prove differently...

The issue is not one for a motoring body but as it's a taxation matter, it falls within the remit of the Revenue Commissioners , and of course VRT on cars applies to all residents of Ireland.

My post above provides a link to what needs to be done to regularise the matter. The problem you might have is that it is now in the hands of the buyer.

corktina

Exactly,That buyer could turn up to VRT it and when asked when did it come into the state might say "I don't know I bought it off a guy in Dublin."

bucketybuck

Its not really the question I asked in my OP, but it is interesting in my opinion, so I wonder if I rephrased it as a hypothetical.

- Man moves to Dublin from Northern Ireland
- Gets company car so does not bring his own car with him
- Declares vehicle off-road in NI using SORN notice, stating its parked at NI address
- One year later decides to sell car.
- Buyer expresses interest.
- Seller brings car to Dublin to meet buyer
- Buyer decides to buy car, pays cash in full and drives away

In the scenario as presented, did the original owner ever import the car into the country?

My opinion is that he did not. Although the buyer viewed the car in ROI, I believe that to be a side issue. The car was not sold by Joe Bloggs, Malahide, Dublin, it was sold by Joe Bloggs, Falls road, Belfast. It was a sale from NI into ROI.

bucketybuck

corktina wrote: »

Exactly,That buyer could turn up to VRT it and when asked when did it come into the state might say "I don't know I bought it off a guy in Dublin."

He will need the log book to VRT it, and that will state the address of the person from whom he bought the car as being from Northern Ireland.

Marcusm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its not really the question I asked in my OP, but it is interesting in my opinion, so I wonder if I rephrased it as a hypothetical.

- Man moves to Dublin from Northern Ireland
- Gets company car so does not bring his own car with him
- Declares vehicle off-road in NI using SORN notice, stating its parked at NI address
- One year later decides to sell car.
- Buyer expresses interest.
- Seller brings car to Dublin to meet buyer
- Buyer decides to buy car, pays cash in full and drives away

In the scenario as presented, did the original owner ever import the car into the country?

My opinion is that he did not. Although the buyer viewed the car in ROI, I believe that to be a side issue. The car was not sold by Joe Bloggs, Malahide, Dublin, it was sold by Joe Bloggs, Falls road, Belfast. It was a sale from NI into ROI.

The only person who physically transferred the car across the border was te original owner, that is the act of importation. Someone who crosses the border each day imports and exports the car but is subject to a temporary importation exemption. In the scenario you posit, the importation was with the intention of disposing of the car and so the temporary importation exemption would not apply! So been if it had been the case in your circumstances, there would still be a problem.

By the bye, in your original scenario, the SORN declaration was invalid as the Carla's not kept in NI. That's a condition of the exemption - you can't SORN a car which is out of the country - I know as I considered doing it when I had a UK car in Ireland for 6 months.

bucketybuck

Marcusm wrote: »

The only person who physically transferred the car across the border was te original owner, that is the act of importation. Someone who crosses the border each day imports and exports the car but is subject to a temporary importation exemption. In the scenario you posit, the importation was with the intention of disposing of the car and so the temporary importation exemption would not apply! So been if it had been the case in your circumstances, there would still be a problem.

I see your point, but would I not be an exporter in that scenario, and the buyer the importer on whom the burden of VRT would apply?

corktina

yes, if they check and a SORNd car is not where you declared it, you'd get a swift fine, and they DO check.

In your scenario, you sold a UK reg car in the Republic and that is not allowed.

Marcusm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I see your point, but would I not be an exporter in that scenario, and the buyer the importer on whom the burden of VRT would apply?

No, no, no! The buyer engaged in a domestic transaction (based on what you've said so far). The buyer of course is not permitted to drive said car in the Republic and will have fun trying o VRT and reregister it based on what you're given him/her so far. I am unsure if they are naive in acquiring it or have some ulterior motive, especially as you don't have a name or address.

bucketybuck

Marcusm wrote: »

No, no, no! The buyer engaged in a domestic transaction (based on what you've said so far). The buyer of course is not permitted to drive said car in the Republic and will have fun trying o VRT and reregister it based on what you're given him/her so far. I am unsure if they are naive in acquiring it or have some ulterior motive, especially as you don't have a name or address.

Do you think the buyer will meet any trouble when they go to VRT the car? After all they will have the logbook (it is available to him), and the revenue will be getting their money. Why would they question the request?

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

By the bye, in your original scenario, the SORN declaration was invalid as the Carla's not kept in NI. That's a condition of the exemption - you can't SORN a car which is out of the country - I know as I considered doing it when I had a UK car in Ireland for 6 months.

I SORN'd a car and drove it here for 7 months or so before registering it. If I didn't I'd have been getting tax fines on it in the UK. Don't see how you were stopped from SORNing the car.

Marcusm

Boone Defeated Leakage wrote: »

I SORN'd a car and drove it here for 7 months or so before registering it. If I didn't I'd have been getting tax fines on it in the UK. Don't see how you were stopped from SORNing the car.

Does that mean you should have VRT'd it earlier? One of the conditions for a vald SORN is tat the vehicle is kept off the road, in the UK and available for inspection at that off road site. I guess you shoud have reregistered it earlier or continued to pay UK motor tax.

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

Does that mean you should have VRT'd it earlier? One of the conditions for a vald SORN is tat the vehicle is kept off the road, in the UK and available for inspection at that off road site. I guess you shoud have reregistered it earlier or continued to pay UK motor tax.

I just didn't bother registering it here, which I did for free, for a good while after moving back, Id been living there for a year so I was entitled to drive it here for a few months anyway before registering it (though not being allowed wouldnt have stopped me). Saved myself a nice few bob in tax both here and in the UK as the tax ran out just as I moved home so I SORN'd it.

I never even read the conditions of SORN, just filled out the form and sent it off. I dont remember stating the address it was being kept at although its a good few years ago now since I did that. Sure even if they did come looking for me I was gone permanently so not much they could have done.

Marcusm

Boone Defeated Leakage wrote: »

I never even read the conditions of SORN, just filled out the form and sent it off. I dont remember stating the address it was being kept at although its a good few years ago now since I did that. Sure even if they did come looking for me I was gone permanently so not much they could have done.

I guess it's irrelevant now but best not to be so cavalier with UK declarations; inappropriate SORN is up to £5k fine plus a period in chokey. The former, I understand, is more common than the latter. Compliance in the UK is taken more seriously than Ireland.

Marcusm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Do you think the buyer will meet any trouble when they go to VRT the car? After all they will have the logbook (it is available to him), and the revenue will be getting their money. Why would they question the request?

A friend delayed presenting her car fr VRT exemption when she moved to Ireland from the UK. She went up a couple of times but couldn't stomach the queues. Eventually it was rereg'd at the cost of backdated tax discs - 3 years if I remember correctly. An NI reg car might be different as there's no proof when it was imported pus system is different now.

Silly thing is the new went wouldn't have to pay VRT if you'd sorted it out, they might even have paid you more for the car!!

bucketybuck

Marcusm wrote: »

Silly thing is the new went wouldn't have to pay VRT if you'd sorted it out, they might even have paid you more for the car!!

I do know that I could have brought the car with me at the time I moved, free from VRT. However at the time I was not certain how long I would be staying in Ireland, and I didn't want a scenario where I registered it in Ireland only to have to reregister it back into the UK six months later, especially as I wouldn't even be driving the thing.

By the time my work location was more secure the grace period for bringing the car into the country had expired. Again, as it was just parked up I never worried much about it.

stealthyspeeder

bucketybuck wrote: »

the grace period for bringing the car into the country had expired.

Whats this grace period?

Surely If you brought the car into the state and you were returning home regularly to see friends and family, you are exempt for VRT for as long as you are employed in the Republic? (occupational and personal ties section of the VRT rules)

Then, if you decide to bring the car into the state, and formally change your residence, that will be the start period where you have to own the car for 6 months before you can sell it in the republic? Again, I havent looked at the rule book in a while but I dont remember any grace periods?

bucketybuck

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Whats this grace period?

Surely If you brought the car into the state and you were returning home regularly to see friends and family, you are exempt for VRT for as long as you are employed in the Republic? (occupational and personal ties section of the VRT rules)

I believe it is 3 months from when you take up residency, you can bring the car in as a personal possession, rather than a good being imported.

When I moved I of course registered for PPS and tax numbers etc etc. I doubt that a year later I would have been able to claim I had only just moved to the state at the time of application for new plates.

stealthyspeeder

bucketybuck wrote: »

I believe it is 3 months from when you take up residency, you can bring the car in as a personal possession, rather than a good being imported.

When I moved I of course registered for PPS and tax numbers etc etc. I doubt that a year later I would have been able to claim I had only just moved to the state at the time of application for new plates.

No, you wouldnt be able to claim that you only just moved, but you certainly would be able to get Southern plates free of VRT.

During the year, the split between your occupational and personal ties would exempt you from paying VRT and permit you to drive your yellow reg car. When, or if, you then decide your move to the ROI is permanent, you notify the authorities that your residence is now in the ROI. You then apply for ROI number plates because you are a new ROI resident. You are then forbidden from selling the car for 6 months I think (it may be a year) but after that, you can sell it as per normal in the ROI.