Underground rainwater harvesting system anybody??

paddy147

Does anybody here on the gardening forum have an underground rainwater harvestring system installed on their property??

Im talking about the likes of a 4500-5000 litre system.
Im thinking of gambling on a system with the looming "IMF" water meters being installed from this October onwards.

It will be for garden watering,washing machine,dishwasher and fish tank usage........and also possible showering too (UV sterilisation and filtration system)



Has anyone any experience with these systems and installing them and how do find the water quality from them??

Is a precast concrete tank or a plastic tank better aswell...with regards underground/under garden instalation??


Thanks.:)

paddy147

Anyone???



We have a meeting lined up today with a specialist engineering company who produce rainwater harvesting systems.

Zuiderzee

Saw it done in Australia, houses foundation incorporates water harvesting.
I think its well worth doing in the long run - not just because of metering but also flouride.

I have just used two linked waterbutts connected to a shed roof.

The water runs into a trough off a stopcock for Delaney, my donkey, as it is off the mains

JCabot

I heard of a newly built motor garage in the states and during building the owner had the foresight to install a rainwater collection system to filter all water running from the forecort to supply the carwash. The US local authority started to bill him anyway for this water because they said it still was within there remit.

I can imagine it happening here where people with rain water harvesting system will still be charged for water used.

paddy147

Well the meeting went well.
The system uses a 6000 litre precast/fibrecrete tank.
6000 litres is good enough to supply constant clean water for 12 days for a family of 4.
Basicly,a full tank will allow for no rainfall for 12 days.

If we are going ro the this particular sustem,then we need to dig down into the back garden to a depth of 2.4 meters and a width of 2.4 meters wide (8 feet deep and 8 feet wide).

The filtration system and UV sterilizer system would be installed on the wall inside the garage and then the clean filtered water would be pumped up to the house to be used for showering,washing machine,toilets,dishwasher and the fish tanks too.

Just now need to find a company/qualified person to do the ground works and get a price for the groundworks.

Zuiderzee

JCabot wrote: »

I heard of a newly built motor garage in the states and during building the owner had the foresight to install a rainwater collection system to filter all water running from the forecort to supply the carwash. The US local authority started to bill him anyway for this water because they said it still was within there remit.

I can imagine it happening here where people with rain water harvesting system will still be charged for water used.

Well, charging for harvesting water has several precidents, including in the UK and US.

Essentially what a corporation will say is that rain water is their natural resource, and collection by an individual affects their collection.

It is quite attractive for me to be as self sufficient as possible, but with rain water etc there are potential downfalls -
http://citizensimon.blogspot.ie/2011/06/water-human-right-or-imf-cash-cow.html

Its like the sale of private power to the ESB - regardless of source - because of the price return is practically deterred, in my opinion that makes the ESB more attractive for when it is privatised.

That all said Paddy, best of luck with the project, I thinks its very prudent as well as interesting - are you going to be blogging it or youtubeing or anything like that?
It might be worth contacting someone like earthhorizon.ie who produce programs on these type of projects - just to share your experiences and reduce the learning curve for the rest of us

paddy147

Any groundworks people out there or companies out there??

Looking to get a price to dig this space/trench down to 8 feet deep and dig a 5 meter long x 600mm deep tranch for a wavin pipe to the existing manhole.

Zuiderzee

I thinks its well worth trying the other sub-forums here - the lads at renewables under construction and planning are very helpful

paddy147

Zuiderzee wrote: »

I thinks its well worth trying the other sub-forums here - the lads at renewables under construction and planning are very helpful

Unfortunately Im not allowed into that particular sub-forum anymore.;):(

I had a serious falling out with a moderator over there about my solar system install and naming the comapny who installed it,and also naming the company who did the spray foaming of my attic spaces and floor spaces in the house.

I showed a heap of pictures of the work and named the companies involved,I was just trying to help out others,but somehow a moderator didnt seem to like it very much.So I got banned for it.

Audioslaven

Currently I am on a scheme where I pay 150 euro a year. i was looking into doing this but the cost of the precast tank, filters and UV system could not justify the outlay of 6K. I just couldnt justify paying 6K to save 150 euro a year. Now if this goes up then I will look at this again.

I set everything up that all the rainwater pipes are linked and outputting to a central location, so in theory I just need to pop my precast tank down, join the pipes/ pump etc and away I go.

TBH I would wait until you have an idea on the costs for metered water, amount of liters you are using etc. You will still need a backup and you may still have a water charge with a certain number of liters free with a standard fee. You have to also factor in maintenance/uv filters etc so while in theory this sounds a great idea, financially speaking for a private house this might not be so good. Maybe if you have cash to burn and dont really care then fire ahead.

muckyhands

Does no one else have the opinion that-

If nothing else in the world we have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO HAVE-AS ORGANISMS OF ONE TYPE OR ANOTHER..... it is WATER..... regardess by what method we come by it?

FFS

for the human race in general.....

If they start this nonsense re water butts/ otherwise known as rainwater harvesting VERSUS under or over ground waterbutts/ rainwater harvesting systems-(someone please tell me when the differentiation occcured- BY THE WAY IT HASNT- ITS ONE AND THE SAME THING- for how long have we been encouraged to CONSERVE water regardless of the scale that they are incorporated into households on- ie waterbutts/ aka rainwater harvesters:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Bring it on. Bring the rain. :D:D

NO IRISH PERSON WITH AN OUNCE OF DIGNITY WILL STAND FOR THIS S##T! GIVEN.

paddy147

Another benefit of this underground rainwater harvesting system is that at least I know what will be in it.

Unlike Dublin City Council,who have water tankers in place in Clontarf,as they dont know what has contaminated the water supply there since Sunday.:(

The rainwater harvesting system that Im looking at can be used for allmost everrything,showering also also drinking water/water for boiling for tea and coffee too.Rainwater is also easier on the skin as is much softer,and it has no real limescale in it either.

Im also thinking of the front and back gardens,the fish tanks and rainwater being a much softer water and having a lower PH level too,than the water in North Dublin,which is around a PH of 7.5-8


Ok,so theres a bit of digging and disruption to be done,but it will give me peace of mind over the water,and it will also be rather handy,when Bord Gais..(aka Irish Water) start ramping up the water unit prices.
Domestic meters due to be installed from this October onwards.

I thought that a human had a basic right to free water to survive,but seems now that we have to pay for it from 2014 onwards.:mad:





Oh and for anyone who doesnt think Bord Gais (aka Irish Water) wont try to fleece us all on water metering prices...they have just applied to the CER (Central Energy Regulator) for an 8% for gas pricing to customers.
No doubt that the CER will approve it too,as they never seem to say NO.:rolleyes:

So add that 8% increase onto the 22% increase they got last year...and you see my point.


So wait and see how high water prices jump up in the next few years so,after the water meters are installed.

Bord Gais (aka Irish Water) will use every excuse they can think of,and use every trick in the book to ramp up the water prices year on year.:eek::mad:

Technophobe

paddy147 wrote: »

Unfortunately Im not allowed into that particular sub-forum anymore.;):(

I had a serious falling out with a moderator over there about my solar system install and naming the comapny who installed it,and also naming the company who did the spray foaming of my attic spaces and floor spaces in the house.

I showed a heap of pictures of the work and named the companies involved,I was just trying to help out others,but somehow a moderator didnt seem to like it very much.So I got banned for it.

Paddy...If you want to type up a query and PM it to me, I will post it in that forum for ya...if you want....
I am allowed post there, altho I did get a couple of days ban at one point..:rolleyes: Very fussy modding over there

Cardinal Richelieu

paddy147 wrote: »

Another benefit of this underground rainwater harvesting system is that at least I know what will be in it.

Unlike Dublin City Council,who have water tankers in place in Clontarf,as they dont know what has contaminated the water supply there since Sunday.:(

The rainwater harvesting system that Im looking at can be used for allmost everrything,showering also also drinking water/water for boiling for tea and coffee too.Rainwater is also easier on the skin as is much softer,and it has no real limescale in it either.

Im also thinking of the front and back gardens,the fish tanks and rainwater being a much softer water and having a lower PH level too,than the water in North Dublin,which is around a PH of 7.5-8


Ok,so theres a bit of digging and disruption to be done,but it will give me peace of mind over the water,and it will also be rather handy,when Bord Gais..(aka Irish Water) start ramping up the water unit prices.
Domestic meters due to be installed from this October onwards.

I thought that a human had a basic right to free water to survive,but seems now that we have to pay for it from 2014 onwards.:mad:

Oh and for anyone who doesnt think Bord Gais (aka Irish Water) wont try to fleece us all on water metering prices...they have just applied to the CER (Central Energy Regulator) for an 8% for gas pricing to customers.
No doubt that the CER will approve it too,as they never seem to say NO.:rolleyes:

So add that 8% increase onto the 22% increase they got last year...and you see my point.


So wait and see how high water prices jump up in the next few years so,after the water meters are installed.

Bord Gais (aka Irish Water) will use every excuse they can think of,and use every trick in the book to ramp up the water prices year on year.:eek::mad:

Skipping the rant part and going back to practicals, have you factored in the cost of getting your water tested at least yearly to ensure the UV and filter system works?

paddy147

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Skipping the rant part and going back to practicals, have you factored in the cost of getting your water tested at least yearly to ensure the UV and filter system works?

I will be speaking to another rainwater harvesting company about this on Friday or when the man shows up to measure our overall roof space and look at the space we have to work with...with regards the site/garden.;)

We may end up getting in a large 8 wheeler crane to lift a tank into place...if it comes down to it.

So far Ive meet with 3 different companies.

The 2 various filters and carbon filters cost from 6 euro to 12 euro each,and need to be replaced every 6-7 months.

UV light needs to be replaced every 12 months..and thats 50 euro.

So that equates to 86 euro each year for that...which aint too bad at all.

Audioslaven

paddy147 wrote: »

I will be speaking to another rainwater harvesting company about this on Friday or when the man shows up to measure our overall roof space and look at the space we have to work with...with regards the site/garden.;)

We may end up getting in a large 8 wheeler crane to lift a tank into place...if it comes down to it.

So far Ive meet with 3 different companies.

The 2 various filters and carbon filters cost from 6 euro to 12 euro each,and need to be replaced every 6-7 months.

UV light needs to be replaced every 12 months..and thats 50 euro.

So that equates to 86 euro each year for that...which aint too bad at all.

The comanies you meet are not going to say rain water harvesting is a bad idea. You need to use your own cop on to factor in prices for the tank, filters, uv, pump, implementation of rain water harvesting -plumber, track machine, yearly maintenance etc Vs the cost per year that Bord Gais will charge.

So say for example it costs you 6k to get this installed and 150 euro a year simple maintenance (change filters, test water) and Bord Gais turn around and charge 500 euro a year, it will take you around 17 years to break even.

Now this assumes you do not need a backup system. So say for example they charge you 150 a year standard fee for this backup service then it takes longer.

I think until you know how many liters you use per year and the associated costs; you are entering into this venture with your eyes closed - it will be an easy sale for one of these companies. These kind of projects need to be financially economical and not just a nice green idea. I think if you had a large demand for water like a farm etc then it would probably make financial sense but a domestic house...!!!!

However , you have some valid points on the water quality with ph, lime etc and if that is the sole reason then fair enough but I would think there are probably cheaper ways to tackle these issues with the water you are currently receiving. I think these rain water harvesting companies are charging too much and laying on the water charges as a way to get customers.

paddy147

You seem to be working off a figure of 6k....(obviously you got quoted yourself some years ago)

Ive not mentioned any figures,and its certainly nowhere near 6k in fact.

And none of the companies involved here have tried to push a rainwatwer harvesting system on me and pushed the excuse of water meters either.
Far from it in fact.

All have given me pros and cons to it and left me to make my own decision.
All have given me some very good options with regards tank sizing and application/instalation methods too.



I have several reasons for being interested in an underground rainwater harvesting system.....as mentioned in my previous posts

Im looking at future health and also to the future in general too and being effiecent.
Just like I did with my solar system that gives me hot water 24/7,my LED lighting throughout the entire house and also serious insulation work too.

Its all about being healthy,effiecent and being comfortable too,for me and my family and the future.



As my father once said to me........"short term pain for long term gain".

Audioslaven

paddy147 wrote: »

You seem to be working off a figure of 6k....(obviously you got quoted yourself some years ago)

Ive not mentioned any figures,and its certainly nowhere near 6k in fact.

And none of the companies involved here have tried to push a rainwatwer harvesting system on me and pushed the excuse of water meters either.
Far from it in fact.

All have given me pros and cons to it and left me to make my own decision.
All have given me some very good options with regards tank sizing and application/instalation methods too.



I have several reasons for being interested in an underground rainwater harvesting system.....as mentioned in my previous posts

Im looking at future health and also to the future in general too and being effiecent.
Just like I did with my solar system that gives me hot water 24/7,my LED lighting throughout the entire house and also serious insulation work too.

Its all about being healthy,effiecent and being comfortable too,for me and my family and the future.



As my father once said to me........"short term pain for long term gain".

You don't know the cost of metered water, you probably don't know how many litres you use in any given year(maybe you have some estimates from the RH companies), You also need to factor in backup supply - will there be a cost associated with this? These are very important questions that need an anwser to before you plough into doing this. I think very few people have these anwsers in regards to water costs
I was in around 4.5 - 5K for everything but I was looking at a bigger tank - 10K litres tank. I would think Dublin would have some price inflation so I was thinking 6k max. You will also be pressurisation the water supply to you house so you need to be sure your plumbing can handle this (not sure of the pressure in Dublin or if you have a pump to increase the pressure to your house).

If you laid out some quotes then people could make better informed replies.
All this other stuff you say about insulation, solar is great but until figures are laid out on the table you can't make a proper informed decision and one that make financial sense. You could end up changing your fathers quote to "short term pain long term pain"

paddy147

Audioslaven...answer is that no one knows the facts just yet.....regarding water meter rates.

Sure Phil Hogan is even keeping his big fat gob shut...for once (which is kind of alarming aswell).


But we all do know this much....Bord Gais/Irish water will keep on pushing up prices and most likely the CER will just keep on letting them do it too.The CER allways let Bord Gais away with things.


Im in this for reasons other than just the pending domestic water meter instalations.

I have not commited to anything yet.but Im very close to making a decision and possibly taking a gamble on a system.



Between the front and back gardens,waashing the car,the pond,the 2 large aquariams/fish tanks in the house,ashowering/bathing and then the household applience water usage....it might very well be worth the gamble (for several reasons) in the end.

Im that sort of person and if nothing else,it would give myself and my family a purer/softer water which would be of benefit to us all and to the various appliences too (toilets,showers,washing machine and dishwasher).


I took a chance and went out on a limb before,with some stuff do do with my house and ite comfort/heating/lighting,and so far so good.

Audioslaven

paddy147 wrote: »

Audioslaven...answer is that no one knows the facts just yet.....regarding water meter rates.

Sure Phil Hogan is even keeping his big fat gob shut...for once (which is kind of alarming aswell).


But we all do know this much....Bord Gais/Irish water will keep on pushing up prices and most likely the CER will just keep on letting them do it too.The CER allways let Bord Gais away with things.


Im in this for reasons other than just the pending domestic water meter instalations.

I have not commited to anything yet.but Im very close to making a decision and possibly taking a gamble on a system.



Between the front and back gardens,waashing the car,the pond,the 2 large aquariams/fish tanks in the house,ashowering/bathing and then the household applience water usage....it might very well be worth the gamble (for several reasons) in the end.

Im that sort of person and if nothing else,it would give myself and my family a purer/softer water which would be of benefit to us all and to the various appliences too (toilets,showers,washing machine and dishwasher).


I took a chance and went out on a limb before,with some stuff do do with my house and ite comfort/heating/lighting,and so far so good.

To me this makes no sense going on your gut/limb and your past experiences. You don't have the full picture. I would think projects like this need a simple cost benefit analysis. If I was you, I would wait a year when the meters are in a see what the cost is.

Now water rates may go up to a rate that it makes this idea good financial sense but until then I would have my doubts. I would also question solar in this way on a purly financial view but there are threads on this so I am not going there.

You could probably cut your water usage alot if you put some over ground tanks in and stick a pump on them to use the water for all the general stuff like garden, car etc.(you could have this running for a bout 250 euro. If the water is too hard then you have wate softners and if you feel the current water quality is not so good, you could use UV.

Now if you go this route, you could also put down shutters and pour the tank to a size you wanted. I found the price of the pre cast tanks a bit expensive and it may work out cheaper. I would stay away from plastic tbh as I dont think it would stand the test of time and there is more ground work to them.

paddy147

Audioslaven...you do raise some good points there.:)

But heres the million dollar question for you.......

What happens if water meter rate prices go through the roof and the rainwater harvesting companies up their price aswell??Golden oppertunity missed..as of now.

My back garden is a blank canvas (again) and is about to be completely redesigned and landscaped by my girlfriend.

It would be one hell of a kick in the nutts to me,if I didnt go for it and then only to find in 2-3 years time,that Bord Gais/Irish Water would be screwing us all over on water rates.

Designed/landscaped garden and pond has to be completely dug back up and as a result a very unhappy girlfriend too,due to me ruining all her beautiful work.;)

Then when Enda Kenny sells "Irish Water" off to be privatized...god only knows what ripp off prices we will be charged.:mad:....(just look at the bin charge fiasco once it was privatized)



I dont know what the future holds,all I know is that its a bit of a gamble

Heads----you win
Tails----you lose.


Oh and I agree with you on the underground plastic tanks...precast concrete/fibrecrete is less hassle for instalation purposes.





PS-This is Ireland,so Im sure we will be bent over backwards on the price of water,by someone,in the future.:rolleyes::mad:



PPS-Solar and insulation was all part of a major house rennovation and extension project.Very happy with the performance from both the solar and also the insulation aspect of the house.I havent had to put on any heating since last january..as the house is that warm and hold the heat so well...its unbelieveble.IThere no gas central heating back up for hot water,as the solar looks after the hot water 24/7.
BER went from E2 to A3.
Talk about snug as a bug in a rug.:D

Audioslaven

paddy147 wrote: »

Audioslaven...you do raise some good points there.:)

But heres the million dollar question for you.......

What happens if water meter rate prices go through the roof and the rainwater harvesting companies up their price aswell??Golden oppertunity missed..as of now.

My back garden is a blank canvas (again) and is about to be completely redesigned and landscaped by my girlfriend.

It would be one hell of a kick in the nutts to me,if I didnt go for it and then only to find in 2-3 years time,that Bord Gais/Irish Water would be screwing us all over on water rates.

Designed/landscaped garden and pond has to be completely dug back up and as a result a very unhappy girlfriend too,due to me ruining all her beautiful work.;)

Then when Enda Kenny sells "Irish Water" off to be privatized...god only knows what ripp off prices we will be charged.:mad:....(just look at the bin charge fiasco once it was privatized)



I dont know what the future holds,all I know is that its a bit of a gamble

Heads----you win
Tails----you lose.


Oh and I agree with you on the underground plastic tanks...precast concrete/fibrecrete is less hassle for instalation purposes.





PS-This is Ireland,so Im sure we will be bent over backwards on the price of water,by someone,in the future.:rolleyes::mad:



PPS-Solar and insulation was all part of a major house rennovation and extension project.Very happy with the performance from both the solar and also the insulation aspect of the house.I havent had to put on any heating since last january..as the house is that warm and hold the heat so well...its unbelieveble.IThere no gas central heating back up for hot water,as the solar looks after the hot water 24/7.
BER went from E2 to A3.
Talk about snug as a bug in a rug.:D

I don't know but its your call. There is the possibility that these RH companies may raise their prices but you could also go solo and buy each indvidual part and bypass them. You could easily get someone to pour a tank for you. After that you need to buy your pump, water vessel, filters etc. A decent plumber could get these for you and install them.


I think there is alot of fear with the prices of water and this is feeding into peoples opinion that the prices will be high. I think there will be a few years of mimimal prices but like everything they will go up. To what extend I don't know but when the day arrives that rain waterharvesting makes financial sense I will put it in. I can't see this for at least a minimum of two/three years or so. I am only paying 150 euro a year and it would be complete stupidy to install RH for this yearly cost.

BTW - i am after doing my gardens and this was not a reason to put it in. I would say if you don't go with it at least pipe all the water from the house and garage to the place where you are going to put the tank. This will resiult in minimal digging of the garden. You could also run two sewer pipes from the place where the precast tank will be to the garage so that the plumber would just need to push the pipes through. The other one for power for the pump.

Builderfromhell

I know people who have decided against installing rain water harvesting systems because it seems they will be charged a standard fee for the water meters fitted to their water supply anyway. So if they install RWH system and use very little mains water they are still paying virtually the same as their neighbour. That is the fixed charge and the extra for mains water used.
A bit like me trying to save on telephone costs by not using phone much but still having to pay dearly for phone rental while my call charges may be a few euros.

paddy147

Builderfromhell wrote: »

I know people who have decided against installing rain water harvesting systems because it seems they will be charged a standard fee for the water meters fitted to their water supply anyway. So if they install RWH system and use very little mains water they are still paying virtually the same as their neighbour. That is the fixed charge and the extra for mains water used.
A bit like me trying to save on telephone costs by not using phone much but still having to pay dearly for phone rental while my call charges may be a few euros.

Yeah we all know that Phil Hogan wants to ripp everyone off and charge a flat rate charge of 40 euro a year for 20 years.:mad::mad:

Even when the whole meter and instalation is around 150-200 euro tops.


BUT...what happens when Irish Water decide to up the water unit prices and people then start to see huge water bills coming in the door.

Then what happens when/if Irish Water is sold off to be privatized (due to IMF demands to sell of lots of state assets)

I mean,why the hell else would be be getting domestic water meters,if they were not going to charge per "unit of water".

We all know that the price of a unit of water will go up and up and up (this is Ireland afterall).

amby1980

Audioslaven wrote: »

Now if you go this route, you could also put down shutters and pour the tank to a size you wanted. I found the price of the pre cast tanks a bit expensive and it may work out cheaper. I would stay away from plastic tbh as I dont think it would stand the test of time and there is more ground work to them.

I disagree. I cannot understand why anybody would use concrete tanks. The quality of water stays much higher in plastic opposed to concrete. Concrete tanks can crack and they are much more expensive and difficult into install opposed to plastic tanks.
You can buy extremely strong German made plastic tanks which have a warranty of 15 years. These tanks are specifically designed to be underground. They give no problems.
It is very important to size the tank correctly, depending on roof area, location and usage.
I have looked into rainwater harvesting myself recently as I am considering fitting a system. A lot of people dismisses it saying it is too costly. Wrong. Price around and you should be able to buy a good system for between €2k to €3k. For me, a system will be paid back in 5-6 years. This is very quick considering all the talk about insulation - External insulation has a payback period of 15 years!
Rainwater harvesting is the way forward. Yes rates will start of low but be assured by 2015 one of our main household bills will be water. Us Irish have no foresight and will only buy these systems when absolute necessary and probably end up paying over the odds for the parts.

Audioslaven

amby1980 wrote: »

I disagree. I cannot understand why anybody would use concrete tanks. The quality of water stays much higher in plastic opposed to concrete. Concrete tanks can crack and they are much more expensive and difficult into install opposed to plastic tanks.
You can buy extremely strong German made plastic tanks which have a warranty of 15 years. These tanks are specifically designed to be underground. They give no problems.
It is very important to size the tank correctly, depending on roof area, location and usage.
I have looked into rainwater harvesting myself recently as I am considering fitting a system. A lot of people dismisses it saying it is too costly. Wrong. Price around and you should be able to buy a good system for between €2k to €3k. For me, a system will be paid back in 5-6 years. This is very quick considering all the talk about insulation - External insulation has a payback period of 15 years!
Rainwater harvesting is the way forward. Yes rates will start of low but be assured by 2015 one of our main household bills will be water. Us Irish have no foresight and will only buy these systems when absolute necessary and probably end up paying over the odds for the parts.

I was chatting to JFC and you had to put in a concrete base for the plastic tanks and then you had to be careful backfilling in case you pinched the tank. You would also have to put special sand around them. With a concrete tan, no base is required and you can back fill away. Concrete tanks are more durable and a better solution IMO.

Not sure why kind of system you are getting for 2-3K and to say it will payback in 5-6 years is rubbish because you dont know the cost per annum having to pay for water will be. You will also be caught for water charges if you have a backup system from the public water scheme so you will get caught for water charges unless you have a well.

amby1980

Audioslaven wrote: »

I was chatting to JFC and you had to put in a concrete base for the plastic tanks and then you had to be careful backfilling in case you pinched the tank. You would also have to put special sand around them. With a concrete tan, no base is required and you can back fill away. Concrete tanks are more durable and a better solution IMO.

Not sure why kind of system you are getting for 2-3K and to say it will payback in 5-6 years is rubbish because you dont know the cost per annum having to pay for water will be. You will also be caught for water charges if you have a backup system from the public water scheme so you will get caught for water charges unless you have a well.

I agree that different manufacturers may have different quality tanks, some good some poor. You have more algae growth in concrete tanks.
Using what method of installation all depends on the ground quality and level of water table.
In bad ground conditions with a high water table, yes you must install a concrete base and back fill with P-gravel, but if the installation is carried out correctly this should only cost approx. €50 for concrete and €100 on P-gravel. No big deal.
Obviously a certain amount of care must be taken when back filling, same as concrete tanks as well, you don't let large stones/rocks fall against the tank from a height or you will damage it. But these tanks are designed to be underground and are used for decades in central Europe and else where. Rainwater harvesting is not new, only to us.
I have priced lots of systems around the €2k - €3k mark.
For the payback period I based my figures on public buildings who are charged at the moment.
Yes you will get caught for water charges if you have a mains back up on the system. This is why it is important to have the tank correctly sized so you will only be using mains back up on a very rare occasion.

I fully agree with the water charges and think its years too late. The government spends millions each year on treating water only to be wasted in leaks, outside taps, toilets, showers, etc. Would anyone go buy a bottle of Ballygowan and pour it down the toilet? I think not, but we are in fact doing that. Only 3% of mains water is used for drinking!

paddy147

3k for a 6000 litre concrete underground system from Shay Murtagh.Thats with UV sterilization and 3 stage filtration system too.

Thats supply and instalation of the concrete tank and system,minus any actual ground works and re-jigging and connection of rainwater downpipes and wavin piping too.

I also have the JFC catalogue here,as I rang them and they both emailed me and sent me a catalogue in the post.

I also have a Kingspan Water catalogue here too,as they also posted one out to me.

JFC and Kingspan use plastic underground tanks,which need a stable base and then you backfill with 300mm of pea shingle in stages.

You also fill the tank with water in 300mm stages too,as you backfill.

Both JFC and Kingspan plastic tanks have a guarentee of 15 years.

Mech1

Hey paddy, sorry to go way off topic but any chance you could update your marine tank thread?
Lots of us where enjoying your progress with that.
Sorry again.

paddy147

According to todays Irish Daily Mail and Sun Newspapers...water meters wont be installed till Spring of 2016,,and thats if everything runs smoothly.

Phil Hogan has made another major blooper here (opening his mouth before engaging his brain).

They did trial tests with some local councils in Kerry,Dublin (Fingal) and other parts of the country,and it was discovered the the CCs dont have actual maps of their water pipework and they cant even say where the stop cocks for the houses are located.

Housing estates that were built from the 1940s up to the mid 1960s and that share mains water of a mains pipe will most likely not have meters installed as they cant determine how much water a house would use and where the external stop cocks would be located.

A senior person from DCC said that even if things ran perfectly smoothly,that there would be no way in hell of having water meters installed by the end of 2013.

It will take till at least Spring of 2016.

So I might not go with my plan of an underground rainwater harvesting system,as it might be a futile investment,with regards cost.

It would be great to use the rainwater for everything in my house from an energy and ecological point of view,but from a cost point of view......it might be money down the toilet (excuse the pun).

Maybe I might wait till 2016 and see what happens.

Audioslaven

paddy147 wrote: »

According to todays Irish Daily Mail and Sun Newspapers...water meters wont be installed till Spring of 2016,,and thats if everything runs smoothly.

Phil Hogan has made another major blooper here (opening his mouth before engaging his brain).

They did trial tests with some local councils in Kerry,Dublin (Fingal) and other parts of the country,and it was discovered the the CCs dont have actual maps of their water pipework and they cant even say where the stop cocks for the houses are located.

Housing estates that were built from the 1940s up to the mid 1960s and that share mains water of a mains pipe will most likely not have meters installed as they cant determine how much water a house would use and where the external stop cocks would be located.

A senior person from DCC said that even if things ran perfectly smoothly,that there would be no way in hell of having water meters installed by the end of 2013.

It will take till at least Spring of 2016.

So I might not go with my plan of an underground rainwater harvesting system,as it might be a futile investment,with regards cost.

It would be great to use the rainwater for everything in my house from an energy and ecological point of view,but from a cost point of view......it might be money down the toilet (excuse the pun).

Maybe I might wait till 2016 and see what happens.

I think you are making a good call based solely on ROI and you do not have the full picture. Your initial posts implied you were doing this for other reasons so I assume these are not as high priority as cost. I guess Johnny Cash is king in the end

paddy147

I was doing it equally for being eco friendly and more user friendly on water and also for the cost factor too (futurproofing for the water meters and rates).

Rainwater is much softer and lower pH level too,so it would be kind on the skin for showering and also kind on appliences for washing clothes and dishes.

Less limescale problems aswell.

I also have my 2 lagre aquariams aswell with regards water changes.

But with the water meters more or less delayed till 2016 (and who knows,maybe my area wont get water meters now) I also want to take on board cost aswell....(sure dont we all these days).

Its a gamble,and Im allways up for a gamble.....but maybe its a gamble with a few too many unknowns now at this stage....(well done yet again Phil Hogan).


If it comes to it in a few years time,then I can/will stick an overground black coloured 4000 litre tank in the garage and collect the rainwater off the garage roof.
I can also put a 2500 litre black square plastic tank down the side of the house and collect the rainwater off the front and side of the house.


I think I had better let my missus work her magic with the back garden now,as I am seriously holding up her grand designs and plans for it.;):D

JCabot

paddy147 wrote: »

3k for a 6000 litre concrete underground system from Shay Murtagh.Thats with UV sterilization and 3 stage filtration system too.

Thats supply and instalation of the concrete tank and system,minus any actual ground works and re-jigging and connection of rainwater downpipes and wavin piping too.

I also have the JFC catalogue here,as I rang them and they both emailed me and sent me a catalogue in the post.

I also have a Kingspan Water catalogue here too,as they also posted one out to me.

JFC and Kingspan use plastic underground tanks,which need a stable base and then you backfill with 300mm of pea shingle in stages.

You also fill the tank with water in 300mm stages too,as you backfill.

Both JFC and Kingspan plastic tanks have a guarentee of 15 years.

I am not confident about using plastic tanks after reading an article recently about chemicals leaching from plactic into stored water. Some of which are as yet not even tested for so this may become an issue in the future. Theres a supplier in Clonakilty which I have not connection with that i bought a RO unit from and they also sell whole house water filters. It might be worth your while doing a comparrison on price.

paddy147

I have an RO system here.

Bought it for making/producing salt water from my marine fish tank.

I decided not to go ahead with the marine tank,so I still have a new 5 stage pumped RO system sitting here in its packaging.:)

JCabot

paddy147 wrote: »

I have an RO system here.

Bought it for making/producing salt water from my marine fish tank.

I decided not to go ahead with the marine tank,so I still have a new 5 stage pumped RO system sitting here in its packaging.:)

RO is only for the tap water but you would also need to filter the water for the house. I know I was looking for something to remove the chlorine and they had very large filters for this porpose. not sure if they are the same ones used for rain water harvesting but might be worth getting a quote.

paddy147

A friend of mine has put the idea of an underground system back into my head.

We also visited a large precast concrete and quarry company last week aswell,and we looked at the tanks in the flesh.

A 6000 litre precast tank is just on 2 meters in height and 2.25 meters in diameter.

I know its basicly a 50/50 gamble,but I keep on having this niggling/gut feeling that in the future (even 5-6 years down the line) that we in this country are going to be hammered with water rates.
It will be a flat rate for the 1st year or 2 from 2014/2015,but what happens after that

Utility prices seem to only go 1 way in this country.


So the question with regards the future and even 10-20 years on down the line,is this.....



Heads or tails??????





PS-My mate said to me recently,this is an investment for life,and he wishes he could do something like this,but lack of garden space prevents him from doing this for his house and family.

JCabot

I also think this is where we are heading but I would not be suprised if the local councils also tried to licence or find a way to tax them. Ideally something like this is installed at build but apart from initial cost its just how easy or difficult it is to retro fit them. I would prefer the concrete to pvc because less chance of chemicals in my drinking water.

paddy147

JCabot wrote: »

I also think this is where we are heading but I would not be suprised if the local councils also tried to licence or find a way to tax them. Ideally something like this is installed at build but apart from initial cost its just how easy or difficult it is to retro fit them. I would prefer the concrete to pvc because less chance of chemicals in my drinking water.

I was recently speaking to a freind of mine who works in the water division of DCC.
He rekons that any house that has an "uisce" stop cock shore outside their property will get a meter in the comming 2 years.

Theres strong rummors and whispers from his water division department that Bord Gais/Irish Water plan to do a "flat rate" for the 1st year of charges and then after that,we will be getting billed for water,once all the meters are installed.

At the nmoment its all a bit of an unknown,but we all know that the prices wont decrease ever.

They will only go 1 way.......and thats UP and UP and UP.:(:mad:

padser12345

JCabot wrote: »

I am not confident about using plastic tanks after reading an article recently about chemicals leaching from plactic into stored water. Some of which are as yet not even tested for so this may become an issue in the future. Theres a supplier in Clonakilty which I have not connection with that i bought a RO unit from and they also sell whole house water filters. It might be worth your while doing a comparrison on price.

I would only worry about chemicals leaching from the plastic Tanks - if I were to drink the water!

momec

I have a rain water tank out in my garden and i fitted it myself , i dug a hole 16ft deep and 6ft by 10ft wide , i put a 4ft plastic double skin pipe they use for making road crossings standing on its end and filled around it with 3 to 4 inch washed stone from a quarry , the stone cost 200 euro and pipe was 800 euro .. its constantly full an never has been dry in 3 yrs , i must get it tested but it runs the house no problem ..

paddy147

momec wrote: »

I have a rain water tank out in my garden and i fitted it myself , i dug a hole 16ft deep and 6ft by 10ft wide , i put a 4ft plastic double skin pipe they use for making road crossings standing on its end and filled around it with 3 to 4 inch washed stone from a quarry , the stone cost 200 euro and pipe was 800 euro .. its constantly full an never has been dry in 3 yrs , i must get it tested but it runs the house no problem ..

Any pics?

momec

ill take a couple tomorow all you see is about 2ft of pipe overground with concrete lid on it

paddy147

momec wrote: »

ill take a couple tomorow all you see is about 2ft of pipe overground with concrete lid on it

How does the water get from the underground to the tank in the attic and around the house?

Im presuming you ran something like Hydrodare pipe from the underground tank up to and into the house and have a pump to pump the water up and in?



Do you use the water for showering,if if yes,then what sort of treatment does it go through for showering use?

Thanks

cmcqq

Hi Paddy147.

Have you done anything regarding your water harvesting system yet? It has been on my mind for a long time. Im starting some renovations, extension at the back of my home so while im digging foundations im thinking should i dig out a pit for a large tank.
I was also chatting with a friend who recently dug a 6inch well, must say very tidy but messy when drilling. However his garden is huge and needed access for the drilling truck. He called the company today and they said that they have a smaller track machine that could access my garden. Just another thought. Im waiting for an idea of price..

PS Your damn right, the day will come when a flat rate will become another huge burden on us when the regulator etc allow Bord Gas inc electric to hike up the already ridiculous prices to live in what used to be a great country. All we can try to do is reduce our utility expenses. (rant over) I have already put in three panels 500ltr hot water storage tank. Led lights and upgraded insulation.
Now for water harvesting If i could have my way i'd have a wind turbine as well

Let me know if you have proceeded your venture in water harvesting..

stooge

We have a water harvesting system currently in the house. Tank installed under the front garden and taking runoff from the house and garage roof.

Unfortunately, the previous owner did not install a UV or sediment filter so it is pretty much unusable at the moment (We turn the value off which pumps the water up to the tank in the attic).

Paying for the filters and fitting would be an outlay of around 1k going by quotes and estimates. Maybe something we will look into further down the line but overall the system seems to work well (despite the filter).

Sonnenblumen

stooge wrote: »

We have a water harvesting system currently in the house. Tank installed under the front garden and taking runoff from the house and garage roof.

Unfortunately, the previous owner did not install a UV or sediment filter so it is pretty much unusable at the moment (We turn the value off which pumps the water up to the tank in the attic).

Paying for the filters and fitting would be an outlay of around 1k going by quotes and estimates. Maybe something we will look into further down the line but overall the system seems to work well (despite the filter).

How do you manage when the tank fills? Instead of connecting to attic tank (= lots of maintenance work + expense), have you considered connecting it to an external tap for use in garden/car washing?

IMO I've seen some very expensive installations, ROI is weak and they all require careful and regular monitoring to avoid any potential health risks etc purposes.

stoneill

Have one installed - 5000l buried in back garden, sediment filter but no UV as it's used for flushing toilets only.
2 separate water tanks in attic, one for mains water and one for harvested water.
Run off sump at the hedge row drain for any excess or overfill of collection tank.

Even during the dry spell during the summer I didn't need to divert to using mains water.

hexosan

I have a 6500L concrete tank installed in my garden approx 3mx2m. While excavating the basement of my new build we came across a natural spring that needed to be diverted. I buried the tank 5m below the surface and used two 1mx1m concrete well liners to bring it to the surface. I diverted the spring through the filling for my raft foundation and piped it into the tank which I drilled through. Out the other side I ran the pipe across the site and to a land drain. So I have the tank constantly filling with fresh water and the land drain pipe handles the over flow. I haven't got it tested yet but I plan on using it for the garden and maybe the toilets in the house. Haven't looked into the logistics of this yet either. As it's free flowing there shouldn't be any issues with stagnation and it shouldn't require heavy filtration, it may even be possible to use as drinking water.