Sisko the mass murdering maniac?!

Stabshauptmann

Just re-watched DS9 - s05e13 - For the Uniform. Don't know how I ever missed this.

Sisko, in an attempt to catch Edington uses biogenic weapons to poison planets. Where the **** are the repercussions to this?

somuj

Whats the big deal? All the inhabitants were evacuated. Its a peice of crap planet in the DMZ that the federation dont care about.

Myrddin

It was a known Maquis planet. A terrorist organisation. Nobody was killed, the planet was made uninhabitable for fifty years was the only cost.

It was also an attempt to feed Edingtons delusions of grandeur by Sisko, & play into the role of Inspector Javert, a persona stuck on him by Edington due to Sisko's desire for personal revenge.

By taking on this persona, and ultimately knowingly becoming the bad guy, Sisko was able to shape events & got his man.

I personally found the episode brilliant & don't see how anyone was murdered, let alone mass murder, & rather being a maniac, Sisko got the job done without any cost to human life.

Stabshauptmann

He poisoned the atmosphere of an entire planet.
I have ZERO doubt that this is banned by some interstellar treaty or Federation rule. Its like chemical or biological warfare in our terms today - simply not done.

As Eddignton rightly pointed out, the people on that planet were not all terrorists, it was a mostly civilian population. Its a very un-starfleet act and Im amazed its just glossed over.

downwithpeace

Sisko's actions are the same actions the Maquis used on Cardassian planets and as Sisko said, it's time for me to become the villain, in effect becoming the bad guy prevented the Maquis from poisoning other Cardassian planets.

Cossax

It's been a while since I saw it but didn't it only make the planet uninhabitable by humans for 50 years? Cardassians/native plants and animals would have been ok if memory serves.

Stabshauptmann

downwithpeace wrote: »

Sisko's actions are the same actions the Maquis used on Cardassian planets

So what, they are terrorists. Star Fleet isnt an "ends justify the means" type organisation. War Crimes? No worries, you got the job done. Have a promotion.

Myrddin

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

So what, they are terrorists. Star Fleet isnt an "ends justify the means" type organisation. War Crimes? No worries, you got the job done. Have a promotion.

I still fail to see what crime was committed. For sure the ethics of what he done may be questionable, but again there was no actual crime.

And as Sisko rightly pointed out, once the Maquis changed direction from defending their homes to actually Federation Starships, they became a serious threat.

Stabshauptmann

Ok, by our standards today, biological weapons are a big no-no. The use of such is a war crime. I would expect that the more humane earthlings of the future would hold true to this principle, if not build on it.

Looking at some quick examples from Trek:
TNG: "Haven" - Biological warfare is described as making "one question the sanity of humanoid forms"

TNG: "I, Borg" - Piccard refused to use a biological weapon to wipe out the borg "we'd be no better than the enemy we seek to destroy"

DS9: In the Pale Moonlight: We learn that Bio-memetic gel is strictly controlled by the Federation, because it "could be used to develop biogenic weapons, or for illegal replication experiments..."

But I'll accept that it is never explicitly "outlawed" in Trek, and there is plenty of opportunity to include a piece of dialogue with that in mind (In fact Admiral Nechayev orders Piccard to infect the Borg should he get the chance again - and Janeway does).

If you watch the episode, the shock and pause on each of the officers faces when Sisko gives the order.
I think Eddington puts it well:

EDDINGTON
Do you expect me to believe that
a decorated Starfleet officer --
the pride of the service -- is
going to poison an entire planet?

EDDINGTON
Can't you see what's happening to
you? You're going against
everything you claim to believe in --
and for what? To satisfy a
personal vendetta.

EDDINGTON
And you're betraying [your uniform]-
right now! The sad part is you
don't even realize it...
(a beat)
I feel sorry for you, captain.
This obsession with me -- look
what it's cost you.

Finally, I would point out that Sisko fired two quantum torpedos with a biological payload into a heavily populated planet that showed no signs of evacuation, or preparations to evacuate. He did not assists the evacuation after firing.

Whether or not he got his man, it is conduct most unbecoming of a star fleet officer.

Myrddin

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Ok, by our standards today, biological weapons are a big no-no. The use of such is a war crime. I would expect that the more humane earthlings of the future would hold true to this principle, if not build on it.

There's a difference between a biological weapon, & a toxic poison. A weapon is designed to kill, a poison, is not.

Looking at some quick examples from Trek:
TNG: "Haven" - Biological warfare is described as making "one question the sanity of humanoid forms"

Again, Sisko did not use a biological weapon designed to kill people en mass.

TNG: "I, Borg" - Piccard refused to use a biological weapon to wipe out the borg "we'd be no better than the enemy we seek to destroy"

There were no biological weapons mentioned in that episode. The 'payload' was a computer virus.

DS9: In the Pale Moonlight: We learn that Bio-memetic gel is strictly controlled by the Federation, because it "could be used to develop biogenic weapons, or for illegal replication experiments..."

We also know about metagenic weapons mentioned in Chain Of Command, the Federation has them outlawed.

But I'll accept that it is never explicitly "outlawed" in Trek, and there is plenty of opportunity to include a piece of dialogue with that in mind (In fact Admiral Nechayev orders Piccard to infect the Borg should he get the chance again - and Janeway does).

The Borg programmes are not weapons designed to kill people. There has still been no mention of biological weapons in those episodes. The payload may be delivered by a Borg drone, but the actual virus isn'#t biological...no more so than a trojan horse can be cured with antibiotics.

If you watch the episode, the shock and pause on each of the officers faces when Sisko gives the order.

I think everyone was surprised at the extremity of his actions for sure, but had anyone felt Sisko was about to kill innocent people I'm pretty sure someone would have objected don't you?

Finally, I would point out that Sisko fired two quantum torpedos with a biological payload into a heavily populated planet that showed no signs of evacuation, or preparations to evacuate. He did not assists the evacuation after firing.

Again, no biological weapon was used. The warheads had trilithium resin in them, a waste product of conventional warp propulsion. It's a byproduct, not a weapon of mass destruction.

Also it stated nowhere in the episode the planet is heavily populated. I also fail to see why he needed to stay & assist known terrorists evacuate. Nobody was killed, no weapons were used, & the Maquis would simply have left to relocate.

Also, there's a vast difference between a known Maquis hideout, & a planet populated by civilians in the DMZ.

Whether or not he got his man, it is conduct most unbecoming of a star fleet officer.

No weapons were used & nobody was killed. I still cannot see the connection.

Stabshauptmann

EnterNow wrote: »

There's a difference between a biological weapon, & a toxic poison. A weapon is designed to kill, a poison, is not.

You'll find that a poison is designed to kill, and that the poison in this case was designed to kill human life. Any humans who failed to evacuate the planet would die.

Again, Sisko did not use a biological weapon designed to kill people en mass.

There were no biological weapons mentioned in that episode. The 'payload' was a computer virus.

You are playing a semantics game. The life forms in question are dependent on technological implants. There are grey areas about where life begins and ends, but thats not the point of this thread;

The payload was an infection that would end the lives of those it infected by targeting a unique aspect of the victims biology. It is clearly a biological weapon.

We also know about metagenic weapons mentioned in Chain Of Command, the Federation has them outlawed.

Thank you, thats the type of thing I was looking for! All the more ironic that it was Admiral Nechayev who orders Piccard to stop the Cardassians so.

The Borg programmes are not weapons designed to kill people. There has still been no mention of biological weapons in those episodes. The payload may be delivered by a Borg drone, but the actual virus isn'#t biological...no more so than a trojan horse can be cured with antibiotics.

The problem here I think is that you do not see the Borg as people. It has never crossed my mind that they're not - did you watch VOY? They are dealt with in much greater detail than in TNG.

I think everyone was surprised at the extremity of his actions for sure, but had anyone felt Sisko was about to kill innocent people I'm pretty sure someone would have objected don't you?

The whole point of my thread is my surprise at the willingness to follow the order and the lack of any repercussions from Starfleet.

Again, no biological weapon was used. The warheads had trilithium resin in them, a waste product of conventional warp propulsion. It's a byproduct, not a weapon of mass destruction.

A weapon that makes a planet uninhabitable is a WMD. To say otherwise demeans yourself.

I feel it is a biological weapon because it is the use of toxins as an act of war. If you would feel more comfortable using a stricter definition of biological weapons and limiting it to living organisms or replicating entities fine. Just replace bio-weapon with WMD - the substance of the argument is unaltered.

Also it stated nowhere in the episode the planet is heavily populated.

The word colony instead of settlement implies a certain scale.

I also fail to see why he needed to stay & assist known terrorists evacuate.

They are federation citizens, no? Thats why the Cardassians cant just exterminate them.

Nobody was killed, no weapons were used, & the Maquis would simply have left to relocate.

Convenient to the story, :rolleyes: , it is extremely callous and risky after causing the crisis on the planet not to assist and help save lives.

Also, there's a vast difference between a known Maquis hideout, & a planet populated by civilians in the DMZ.

The Maquis hide among civilian populations. This is very clear in DS9 and TNG, and anyone who has even the smallest understanding of guerrilla warfare

No weapons were used & nobody was killed. I still cannot see the connection.

Two quantum torpedoes were fired at a civilian population. Upon detonation they spread a toxic agent into the atmosphere designed to kill any humans who did not immediately evacuate the planet.

You cannot identify a weapon? or see the connection between the use of these weapons and the wide scale death that would follow without immediate evacuation.


While I fully accept that Sisko hoped no one would die, he did not have the authority to do what he did (Dax says as much at the end of the episode) and it is very un-starfleet.

Myrddin

Ok, it'll take a while to address your post but here goes

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

You'll find that a poison is designed to kill, and that the poison in this case was designed to kill human life. Any humans who failed to evacuate the planet would die.

Is nuclear waste designed to kill? No, it's a byproduct of fuel that just happens to be poisonous. Much the same as the trilithium used in the torpedoes. It wasn't created specifically as a weapon, to me, this negates it as a biological weapon. It wasn't even used as a weapon. It was used to make the planet uninhabitable to the Maquis, not to kill.

You are playing a semantics game. The life forms in question are dependent on technological implants. There are grey areas about where life begins and ends, but thats not the point of this thread;

The payload was an infection that would end the lives of those it infected by targeting a unique aspect of the victims biology. It is clearly a biological weapon.

The payload was a piece of computer code. The delivery method may have been a biological entity, but the weapon, was most certainly not a biological one.

If someone carries a bomb into a building & blows it up, would you class it as a biological weapon? A person carried it in, so surely thats the same as a Borg drone delivering the virus to the hive?

No, the Borg weapon was a weapon alright, but it wasn't biological.

Thank you, thats the type of thing I was looking for! All the more ironic that it was Admiral Nechayev who orders Piccard to stop the Cardassians so.

I don't see it as ironic, in that case, the weapon was most cedrtainly a biological weapon.

The problem here I think is that you do not see the Borg as people. It has never crossed my mind that they're not - did you watch VOY? They are dealt with in much greater detail than in TNG.

Well they were people, as Borg drones, they're not. They're semi-biological entities that can't survive without either their cybernetic implants, nor their organic parts. But to imply they're people in the traditional sense, no, I can't say I see them that way. That's not to say I'd agree with genocide against the Borg, I still have ethics But to compare the Borg computer virus weapon which would have been genocide & what Sisko did where no lives were lost, I think is wrong.

The whole point of my thread is my surprise at the willingness to follow the order and the lack of any repercussions from Starfleet.

We've seen numerous times the crews of Federation ships question orders & at times not follow them due to their own sense of morality. The fact that nobody objected on the Defiant, tells me something.

A weapon that makes a planet uninhabitable is a WMD. To say otherwise demeans yourself.

Well in the given context, the people had to move. Without any lives lost, I'd find it hard to quantify it as a WMD.

I feel it is a biological weapon because it is the use of toxins as an act of war.

The toxins were never intended to kill anyone though, they were merely an annoyance to a terrorist organisation.

If you would feel more comfortable using a stricter definition of biological weapons and limiting it to living organisms or replicating entities fine. Just replace bio-weapon with WMD - the substance of the argument is unaltered.

Again, no lives were lost I seriously can't put it any simpler.

The word colony instead of settlement implies a certain scale.

The words Maquis Colony, are completely & entirely different to A Federation Colony. Bear that in mind

They are federation citizens, no? Thats why the Cardassians cant just exterminate them.

No. There are Federation Colonies in the DMZ that were protected. Maquis Colonies though, well again thats different.

Convenient to the story, :rolleyes: , it is extremely callous and risky after causing the crisis on the planet not to assist and help save lives.[/QUOTE]

Well, it is just a story

Regards it being callous not to stop & save lives. What about the Cardassian Freighter that Sisko chose to save, & thus losing Eddington. Is he a Cardassian sympathiser now? Again, we have no idea if it was 10, 20, 100 or 1000 terrorists on that planet. If it was a substantial amount, one Defiant Class ship isn't going to be any use anyway.

The Maquis hide among civilian populations. This is very clear in DS9 and TNG, and anyone who has even the smallest understanding of guerrilla warfare

Yes thats how it started out. But we've seen them grow stronger & stronger too and having their own territory too. In Ro Larens final TNG episode, wasn't that entire gathering all Maquis? Its been a while but I'm not sure if there were any civilians there either.

Two quantum torpedoes were fired at a civilian population. Upon detonation they spread a toxic agent into the atmosphere designed to kill any humans who did not immediately evacuate the planet.

They wern't fired at a civilian population. They were fired to detonate in the atmosphere, in order to spread a toxin into the air. We also have no idea that they had to evacuate 'immediately', how do you know it didn't become concentrated enough for a few days in order to cause death?

You cannot identify a weapon? or see the connection between the use of these weapons and the wide scale death that would follow without immediate evacuation.

Where/when is it mentioned that evacuation had to be immediate?

While I fully accept that Sisko hoped no one would die, he did not have the authority to do what he did (Dax says as much at the end of the episode) and it is very un-starfleet.

In a war on terror, big decisions had to be made. I think he made a big decision, & yeah granted he got lucky that nobody died...but it is a war is it not? A Captain is able to make the big calls, & wouldn't be captain if authorisation was seeked every time a decision had to be made.

Stabshauptmann

EnterNow wrote: »

Ok, it'll take a while to address your post but here goes



Is nuclear waste designed to kill? No, it's a byproduct of fuel that just happens to be poisonous.

Listen, google dirty bomb. You are being completely disingenuous, I dont know why.

It wasn't even used as a weapon. It was used to make the planet uninhabitable

Serious mind boggling.

If someone carries a bomb into a building & blows it up, would you class it as a biological weapon? A person carried it in, so surely thats the same as a Borg drone delivering the virus to the hive?

Nope. Very different analogies.

Well they were people, as Borg drones, they're not. They're semi-biological entities that can't survive without either their cybernetic implants, nor their organic parts. But to imply they're people in the traditional sense, no, I can't say I see them that way.

Cool. I disagree, but figured that was the root of it.

We've seen numerous times the crews of Federation ships question orders & at times not follow them due to their own sense of morality. The fact that nobody objected on the Defiant, tells me something.

It doesnt, because the problem here as I see it is a problem with the writer not getting what a massive cock up they've made...

Without any lives lost, I'd find it hard to quantify it as a WMD.

The loss of life is not a criteria, the potential loss of life is. A nuclear weapon tested in the tundra / australian outback / middle of the pacific is still a WMD. Thats not even open to debate, you're either disingenuous in that point or...

The toxins were never intended to kill anyone though, they were merely an annoyance to a terrorist organisation.

Ah, congrats, "merely an annoyance". To think I wasted 5 mins writing a reply. Well done sir.

EDIT: I have repeatedly said that I know no one was killed, my problem is that Sisko committed an act with the potential to kill everyone in an entire colony in other to satisfy a personal vendetta. That it pays off, and no one dies, isnt OK with me because as with all the Section 31 episodes - Starfleet / the Federation is not about the ends justifying the means.

In the Pale Moonlight is my favourite episode of Trek, but what I like about that episode is the acknowledgement that a line has been crossed, and Sisko is ok with that. My problem with this episode is the enormity of what has been done is simply glossed over as if it were par for the course.

Daith

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

So what, they are terrorists. Star Fleet isnt an "ends justify the means" type organisation. War Crimes? No worries, you got the job done. Have a promotion.

What are you talking about? Star Fleet won the war against the Dominion by attempting genocide against the Founders. Then blamed it on a "rogue" agency.

Kiith

It's a pretty fine line saying that the torpedo that Sisko fired was a poison rather then a weapon. Any device used to destroy, or remove the ability for a planet to support life, should surely be considered a weapon of mass destruction?

Either way, it made Sisko more 'real' as far as i was concerned. There were times where i hated the reluctance of certain characters to take a harder line in Star Trek. Picard should definitely have taken any opportunity to destroy the Borg. They were a massive threat, and they should have taken any advantage they had against them. The 'more evolved' idea that was often shown in Trek annoyed me at times.

Myrddin

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Listen, google dirty bomb. You are being completely disingenuous, I dont know why.

I know that the payload was intended to have a biological effect, I'm not being disingenuous, or at least not trying to be so my apologies. But I wan't to dispell the sensationalist notion that Federation ships travel around carrying man made biological weapons & that Sisko chose to use them. The thread title is also sensationalist, to the point of absurd...so we need some context here.

He needed a way to become purposely wreckless, a way to fit into the role of Inspector Javert. Only by doing to could he become the hunter, & not the hunted. Now, I'm not for one minute defending Sisko's actions, what he did was indeed wrong, & more so that it was done due to his own personal vendetta against Eddington. But, I suppose the way I see it was the tactic was used not to kill, but to merely hurt Eddington & become a thorn in the Maquis' side.

Yes it was a gamble, yes he won, & yes nobody was killed. But a mass murdering maniac? That, is simply rubbish. Again, what of the Cardassian Freighter he rescued??

Serious mind boggling.

Do you seriously believe Sisko wanted to kill people? Or do you believe he knew all it'd do is make the terrorists relocate? I suppose your right in that we're down to pretty silly stuff at this point, but again, I look at the thread title & try to find the context.

Nope. Very different analogies.

Oh I know they are, but why do you feel a computer virus is a biological weapon?

Cool. I disagree, but figured that was the root of it.

You feel drones are still people while in the collective? Apart from that stupid regeneration world that VOY introduced, every scrap of humanity, individuality, personae, & the person that existed is lost. How you can call that a person is beyond me, more like a living hell.

The reason Picard was saved is because he wasn't a drone for very long. Plus, he was to be a different type of Borg, one to bridge the gap between humanity & the Borg so perhaps they left certain traits in tact. You only have to look at Hugh, & Seven to see the damage that's done. The person they once were, is truly lost.

It doesnt, because the problem here as I see it is a problem with the writer not getting what a massive cock up they've made...

Yeah you do have a point. I agree. But I tend to look at Trek not from the writers perspective, & get sucked into the story more & look at it from the character perspective.

The loss of life is not a criteria, the potential loss of life is. A nuclear weapon tested in the tundra / australian outback / middle of the pacific is still a WMD. Thats not even open to debate, you're either disingenuous in that point or...

Ok I grant you that, what he done certainly had the potential for huge loss of life. The fact it didn't cause any loss of life doesn't negate that fact, true. But again, looking at it from Sisko's perspective, & throwing in a little empathy, I don't believe it was ever intended to cause any loss of life at all. I think he hedged his bets pretty well, & I still believe it was a Maquis colony, not the same one he was on in the start of the episode where there were civilians.

Ah, congrats, "merely an annoyance". To think I wasted 5 mins writing a reply. Well done sir.

No need to get nasty, we're both fans here arn't we? We're only debating the subject, why get annoyed? I'm not trying to belittle you, or antagonise you

I do believe it was only intended to be an annoyance rather than a weapon. Why wouldn't Sisko fire Quantum torpedoes directly at the colony if he actually wanted to kill people?

EDIT: I have repeatedly said that I know no one was killed, my problem is that Sisko committed an act with the potential to kill everyone in an entire colony in other to satisfy a personal vendetta. That it pays off, and no one dies, isnt OK with me because as with all the Section 31 episodes - Starfleet / the Federation is not about the ends justifying the means.

I fully agree, but I keep bringing up the point of the thread title. You need context, the thread title is completely misleading. If he were indeed a mass murdering maniac, there were ways to actually do that...the fact nobody was killed tells me he got what he wanted. Again, the Cardassian freighter?

In the Pale Moonlight is my favourite episode of Trek, but what I like about that episode is the acknowledgement that a line has been crossed, and Sisko is ok with that. My problem with this episode is the enormity of what has been done is simply glossed over as if it were par for the course.

Yep, great points. I agree.

Cookie_Monster

EnterNow wrote: »

And as Sisko rightly pointed out, once the Maquis changed direction from defending their homes to actually Federation Starships

I actually the entire ship :pac:

Cookie_Monster

EnterNow wrote: »

Is nuclear waste designed to kill? No, it's a byproduct of fuel that just happens to be poisonous.

no, of course it's not. But the second you put it in a torpedo / missile / rocket it becomes a weapon.
Even standard explosives can be productive in the demolition industry but as soon as they are targeted correct they become weapons.

He poisoned a planets atmosphere to the extent humans could not live there and in the process caused a long term change in the atmosphere. 50 years exposure could have all sorts of unknown affects on local life and the Cardasians that are not predictable at the time (much like asbestos usage or CFCs back in the day for example)

Myrddin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I actually the entire ship :pac:

Sorry that was meant to be going from defending homes to attacking Federation Starships, ie the Defiant & the Malinche

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, of course it's not. But the second you put it in a torpedo / missile / rocket it becomes a weapon.
Even standard explosives can be productive in the demolition industry but as soon as they are targeted correct they become weapons.

Yes, but do you believe Sisko was trying to kill people?

He poisoned a planets atmosphere to the extent humans could not live there and in the process caused a long term change in the atmosphere. 50 years exposure could have all sorts of unknown affects on local life and the Cardasians that are not predictable at the time (much like asbestos usage or CFCs back in the day for example)

Your still assuming this planet is a Federation colony, & assuming Cardassians live on it too for some reason. I'd need to rewatch the episode for the actual wording, but I think the planet was a Maquis colony, not a Federation one.

Ot doesn't change the ethics of the situation at all, but again, it's context that needs to be acknowledged.

Daith

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

He poisoned a planets atmosphere to the extent humans could not live there and in the process caused a long term change in the atmosphere. 50 years exposure could have all sorts of unknown affects on local life and the Cardasians that are not predictable at the time (much like asbestos usage or CFCs back in the day for example)

This is Star Trek though. They have a whole fleet of scientists. They'ld surely be able to predict what effects the gas would have on a planet over time.

Dark Paintedcurtain

EnterNow wrote: »

Your still assuming this planet is a Federation colony, & assuming Cardassians live on it too for some reason.

I think the assumption is not they live there but the fact that Maquis colonies are in Cardassian space and they're liable to be about to interfere with whatever evacuation, let alone any Dominion ships.

Also, they weren't Federation colonies then but they started off that way before the treaty, so I'm not sure where the difference is, biologically speaking.

(That said: while I think Sisko played hard and fast with other people's lives, it's a bit of a stretch calling him 'a mass murderer'. There should have been fall out, career-wise, though, absolutely.)

Myrddin

Dark Paintedcurtain wrote: »

I think the assumption is not they live there but the fact that Maquis colonies are in Cardassian space and they're liable to be about to interfere with whatever evacuation, let alone any Dominion ships.

Also, they weren't Federation colonies then but they started off that way before the treaty, so I'm not sure where the difference is, biologically speaking.

You don't know where the planet was, it could have been in Federation space, Cardassian space or in the DMZ. It's not that its different biologically, I'm just makikng the point that at no point are we told there were civilians on that planet. It was a Maquis colony, not a Federation colony. Though that doesn't exhonerates Sisko's actions.

But people here would paint a picture that he would kill any man woman or child to get what he wanted, which simply isn't the case. As I have mentioned twice already without a response, a mass murering maniac would not have let Eddington go in order to save a Cardassian Freighter.

(That said: while I think Sisko played hard and fast with other people's lives, it's a bit of a stretch calling him 'a mass murderer'. There should have been fall out, career-wise, though, absolutely.)

Yeah I agree, there should have been something about it.

Kirby

A slight tangent, but those holographics pads they used in that episode.....did we ever see them again?

I know they were a plot contrivance so that Sisko and Eddington could have "personal" conversations without him being there, but they were still cool.

Myrddin

Kirby wrote: »

A slight tangent, but those holographics pads they used in that episode.....did we ever see them again?

I know they were a plot contrivance so that Sisko and Eddington could have "personal" conversations without him being there, but they were still cool.

Also noticed that aswell, they never seemed to ever be used again.

downwithpeace

Kirby wrote: »

A slight tangent, but those holographics pads they used in that episode.....did we ever see them again?

I know they were a plot contrivance so that Sisko and Eddington could have "personal" conversations without him being there, but they were still cool.

Never thought of that, pity as they were really cool.

sargofatz

downwithpeace wrote: »

Never thought of that, pity as they were really cool.

May I point out, that the holographic communications device reappears in the episode "Doctor Bashir, I presume". The admiral who makes the plea bargain with Bashir's father communicates by way of that thing. Okay, it is in Sisko's office, not on the Defiant, if you meant only that, I didn't say anything.

downwithpeace

sargofatz wrote: »

May I point out, that the holographic communications device reappears in the episode "Doctor Bashir, I presume". The admiral who makes the plea bargain with Bashir's father communicates by way of that thing. Okay, it is in Sisko's office, not on the Defiant, if you meant only that, I didn't say anything.

I was thinking over all and had forgotten about its use in that episode, slightly off topic but it's a great episode.

Tomk1

Kiith wrote: »

Either way, it made Sisko more 'real' as far as i was concerned. There were times where i hated the reluctance of certain characters to take a harder line in Star Trek. Picard should definitely have taken any opportunity to destroy the Borg. They were a massive threat, and they should have taken any advantage they had against them. The 'more evolved' idea that was often shown in Trek annoyed me at times.

I say Star Trek at times was in conflict with Gene Roddenberry's utopian starfleet. Thankfully DS9 showed a darker than grey side to the Federation, where politics ruled, and how civilians leaving the federation became outcast and classed as terrorists, and the Federation standing by till after the Maquis were wiped out.

I would have liked to seen a more military-style side to Star fleet, rather than just explorers, even with the war episodes, the craft were still the basic explorer-type ship, breaking the mould was the Defiant but more a cruiser than a battleship.

Back on this topic, the Maquis were cast aside by the Federation allowing them to be eventually annihilated, the actions on Solosos III http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Solosos_III may well have of weakend the Marquis so it could be argued that Sisko's actions assisted in the eventual distruction of the Maquis, it didn't work in their favour.

It would be interesting to see a Star-trek mini series recounting the logs of the Maquis officers, filling in the backstory of Paris Chakotay Torres Eddington