final written warning

jefcas

i work for a contract cleaning company, 8 hour shift every sat and sunday, recently i left the premises to go to a shop, i left earlier than i should have however i saw it as id take my break early, i was never once told in my job when i could take my break how long or anything like that, so the manager caught me in the shop when i was heading out with a bag, called me in a week later to a disciplinary meeting, i explained my side and ended up with a final written warning but i have some questions:
the manager that caught me held the meeting and the started the meeting with i could sack you, she clearly had her mind made up already so it wasnt a fair trial it was more of a meeting regarding my sentencing.
she confessed to intimidating me by saying "i think i let you sweat long enough during the week"
i was given 1 days notice of the meeting.
i never received an employee handbook regarding and rules and regulations of the company.
all my work had been done that day regardless of where or what time i left at for my break, i had clocked in early and even clocked out twenty minutes over time ( non paid)

so basically i think the whole situation is void and the manager has no case, was unprofessional and the hearing wasnt really a hearing given that non of my rights were adhered to.. does any1 else feel i have a case??

Chucken

Did you get a written warning? That means you have got verbal warnings?

jefcas

ya i received a final written warning but i never got a verbal, had never been in trouble at work a day in my life b4 that day and have been in this job a year now

Chucken

I worked for contract cleaners all my life. Sometimes they chance their arms.

If you didnt get verbal warnings...they have not a leg to stand on (which have to be written down ),

I'll bet you're not in a union?
No one seems to be these days

retroactive

Did you receive a contract?

If it wasn't a contractual job, you would still have to be employed with the company for a year to avail of most employee rights.

You would also have to prove that you were actually an employee 1. No supervision 2. No handbook 3. No outline of breaks 4. No set pattern of work schedule (end time and start time). These are all arguments that you are an independent contractor and not an employee in the legal sense. If this arguments succeed, you would have no rights and thus, no cause of action save breach of contract. Although you may have breached first by leaving the premises.

Fair trial and sentencing do not apply to an Alternative Dispute Resolution. They gave you a chance to have your side of the story and following that, they issued a written warning.

Intimidation, in reality, is only a relevant factor if you're suing for constructive dismissal.

If you're not a independent contractor, you still left your place of work to go to the shops without permission. That is profoundly negligent, combine this with previous verbal and written warning and I think you'll find an employer would have an argument for rightful dismissal.

Employee rights, like the rights of tenants, are skewed in the favour of the person with the least bargaining power. Knowing this, your employer is trying to follow proper procedure to effect a rightful termination. Should you wish to dispute this termination or the warning, go to the Employment appeals tribunal or our courts. At the conclusion of the hearing, costs will be awarded. Should you not be successful at trial, costs will be awarded against you. This means you will have to pay your own legal costs, aswell as your employers.

In my opinion, you should stop worrying about whether your employer is acting legally and start doing your job better. But hey, go ahead, spout legalese and threaten legal action, you may find yourself on unpaid suspension pending an indefinite investigation.

Chucken

retroactive wrote: »

Did you receive a contract?

If it wasn't a contractual job, you would still have to be employed with the company for a year to avail of most employee rights.

You would also have to prove that you were actually an employee 1. No supervision 2. No handbook 3. No outline of breaks 4. No set pattern of work schedule (end time and start time). These are all arguments that you are an independent contractor and not an employee in the legal sense. If this arguments succeed, you would have no rights and thus, no cause of action save breach of contract. Although you may have breached first by leaving the premises.

Fair trial and sentencing do not apply to an Alternative Dispute Resolution. They gave you a chance to have your side of the story and following that, they issued a written warning.

Intimidation, in reality, is only a relevant factor if you're suing for constructive dismissal.

If you're not a independent contractor, you still left your place of work to go to the shops without permission. That is profoundly negligent, combine this with previous verbal and written warning and I think you'll find an employer would have an argument for rightful dismissal.

Employee rights, like the rights of tenants, are skewed in the favour of the person with the least bargaining power. Knowing this, your employer is trying to follow proper procedure to effect a rightful termination. Should you wish to dispute this termination or the warning, go to the Employment appeals tribunal or our courts. At the conclusion of the hearing, costs will be awarded. Should you not be successful at trial, costs will be awarded against you. This means you will have to pay your own legal costs, aswell as your employers.

In my opinion, you should stop worrying about whether your employer is acting legally and start doing your job better. But hey, go ahead, spout legalese and threaten legal action, you may find yourself on unpaid suspension pending an indefinite investigation.

Where the hell do you get off with that???????


Everything you just spouted was copy n paste law gobble for your own end. Well done. Do you feel better now???

Maybe when you dirty your hands actually working you will reply differently.

retroactive

Chucken wrote: »

Where the hell do you get off with that???????

Get off what?

I read the OP (Although I never read the subsequent post detailing the lack of verbal warnings, which isn't fatal to the Employers rightful termination. See 'Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures element of the Industrial Relations Act, 1990 (Code of Practice on Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures (Declaration) Order, 2000)' )

Then applied my legal knowledge, training and experience to the OP's situation.

He asked questions and for an opinion on whether he had a case. I answered his questions and gave my opinion on the case. I'm sorry if it wasn't what you like or wanted. While I would love to cater to your wants, I'm afraid that your wants and what the OP wants (An opinion on his case) are mutually exclusive.

Murky Waters

retroactive wrote: »

That is profoundly negligent, combine this with previous verbal and written warning and ...

What previous verbal and written warning are you referring to in this instance?

Chucken

retroactive wrote: »

Get off what?

I read the OP (Although I never read the subsequent post detailing the lack of verbal warnings, which isn't fatal to the Employers rightful termination. See 'Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures element of the Industrial Relations Act, 1990 (Code of Practice on Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures (Declaration) Order, 2000)' )

Then applied my legal knowledge, training and experience to the OP's situation.

He asked questions and for an opinion on whether he had a case. I answered his questions and gave my opinion on the case. I'm sorry if it wasn't what you like or wanted. While I would love to cater to your wants, I'm afraid that your wants and what the OP wants (An opinion on his case) are mutually exclusive.

Experience??? Do tell? You're 22, live at home..etc..its all there to see.

You have no experience..of anything!!

retroactive

retroactive wrote: »

I read the OP (Although I never read the subsequent post detailing the lack of verbal warnings, which isn't fatal to the Employers rightful termination. See 'Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures element of the Industrial Relations Act, 1990 (Code of Practice on Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures (Declaration) Order, 2000)' )

Murky Waters wrote: »

What previous verbal and written warning are you referring to in this instance?

When I seen 'Final written warning', I assumed previous warnings were issued. I then corrected this in a previous post and added the law regarding such a situation (Fun fact - it was brought in by Mary Harney, a minister that adored vague legislation). Can we also be clear here that the OP has not been terminated yet. The grounds for such termination would be added the previous conduct.

Chucken

retroactive wrote: »

When I seen 'Final written warning', I assumed previous warnings were issued. I then corrected this in a previous post and added the law regarding such a situation (Fun fact - it was brought in by Mary Harney, a minister that adored vague legislation). Can we also be clear here that the OP has not been terminated yet. The grounds for such termination would be added the previous conduct.

Ah mr "barrister". Assuming will get your far.
Jazes imagine when people are talking to you and not typing it for you to read!!!!!

EDIT: You're very good at the legal speak like the Templemore speak..

oh..except for "when I seen"..thats just bad grammar

retroactive

Chucken wrote: »

Experience??? Do tell? You're 22, live at home..etc..its all there to see.

You have no experience..of anything!!

Wow, getting a little personal. How does my age and living situation change matter? In the post your referring to you'll also find that I have a Law and Economics degree. A degree from the Honorable Society of King's Inns and have been called to the Bar of Ireland.

In addition to those details, I have worked as a legal researcher, I have a dip in Alternative Dispute Resolution and I interned at the LRC.

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the state of the law. While I appreciate that you have "worked for contract cleaners all your life" and feel strongly when a fellow cleaner is, in your eyes, being taken advantage off, I don't appreciate you bring my personal life into this. I answered the OP's questions and gave my opinion on the case. I'm sorry if it wasn't what you like or wanted. While I would love to cater to your wants, I'm afraid that your wants and what the OP wants are mutually exclusive.

Chucken

retroactive wrote: »

Wow, getting a little personal. How does my age and living situation change matter? In the post your referring to you'll also find that I have a Law and Economics degree. A degree from the Honorable Society of King's Inns and have been called to the Bar of Ireland.

In addition to those details, I have worked as a legal researcher, I have a dip in Alternative Dispute Resolution and I interned at the LRC.

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the state of the law. While I appreciate that you have "worked for contract cleaners all your life" and feel strongly when a fellow cleaner is, in your eyes, being taken advantage off, I don't appreciate you bring my personal life into this. I answered the OP's questions and gave my opinion on the case. I'm sorry if it wasn't what you like or wanted. While I would love to cater to your wants, I'm afraid that your wants and what the OP wants are mutually exclusive.

Talking in plain English might be a start??
Or do you use threads like this to "try out" what "you know"

retroactive

Chucken wrote: »

Talking in plain English might be a start??
Or do you use threads like this to "try out" what "you know"

I'm going to stop relying now. I have better things to do than getting into a circular argument with a cleaner that seems to have an issue with 22 year old qualified professional offering advice. I wish you the best with your future endeavours, Chucken.

OP I'm sorry if my responses to Chucken derailed your thread slightly and I hope my post set you straight about some misapprehensions you have about that law.
This link http://www.resolvehr.ie/index.php?page=disciplinary-procedures provides everything you need to know about disciplinary procedures in a simple way. If you are left in any doubt, contact a solicitor.

jimmycrackcorm

Op, start recording every contact with your manager. They're not fulfilling employment law which is well in favour of employees.

You also should in the instance you have given of your time keeping keep records as a labour court will favour the fact you have worked well in deference to the lack of break guidelines.

Having gone on a few IBEC absentee training courses I'm well aware that things are in your favour as long as you are prepared.

Chucken

retroactive wrote: »

I'm going to stop relying now. I have better things to do than getting into a circular argument with a cleaner that seems to have an issue with 22 year old qualified professional offering advice. I wish you the best with your future endeavours, Chucken.

OP I'm sorry if my responses to Chucken derailed your thread slightly and I hope my post set you straight about some misapprehensions you have about that law.
This link http://www.resolvehr.ie/index.php?page=disciplinary-procedures provides everything you need to know about disciplinary procedures in a simple way. If you are left in any doubt, contact a solicitor.

I'll just quote this for the fun

wmpdd3

Op, your employer is not fulfilling their role as an employer, the meeting wasn't comducted as it should, you were not supplied with the tools to do your job, BUT, if you are there less than a year, be careful, they can still let you go. As said before, get a notebook and keep a note of dates and times of all contact and training and anything you sign. Also, you can be given a final written warning for a first offence if it is serious. there may be insurance issues if you are clocked in but off the premises.

Mrs OBumble

So this thread has legal advice (which we cannot give here), back-seat-moderation, personal abuse, and text-speak.

All in the early hours of Sunday morning!!! So it's going to close in a few seconds. Please don't repeat the performance elsewhere.


OP, sorry, but we cannot give you legal advice. IMHO wmpdd3's post is pretty much on the mark for what we can/should say here. If you want any more, you'll need to talk to a union, Citizen's Information or a solicitor - and you may want to think about whether it's worth it.