A question about Heaven.

Seaneh

Right.

One thing that I have never, ever been able to wrap my head around is when other Christians talk about "being in heaven for eternity".

As far as I can read in scripture, humans won't be in heaven, they will be on earth, a new earth granted, but earth none-the-less, where has this idea that we will all be playing harps and singing kumbaya in clouds dressed in togas come from? Why do so many learned and intelligent Christians proliferate this image and how the heck can I make them stop?

The one thing that really erks me about it is when people say stuff like "It's gonna be like one never ending worship session and we will all be with God" and other such tosh. Where the flip are they getting this from?

Jesus talks about this age and the age to come but he talks about the age to come being a very present, real, earthly thing, a whole, fixed earth, but he doesn't talk about humans being in heaven.


These are just some of the things that puzzle me...


Don't even get me started on stuff like that book some pastor in the US wrote and then passed off as his 5 year olds about "heaven is for real".

Snappy Smurf

Seaneh wrote: »

Don't even get me started on stuff like that book some pastor in the US wrote and then passed off as his 5 year olds about "heaven is for real".

What did he write? Did he pass for a five year old? I am confused.

Sonics2k

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

What did he write? Did he pass for a five year old? I am confused.

There was a man claiming a while back that his son died and went to Heaven, but managed to live through it and is still alive.

Ironically the man is a pastor and frankly, it all seemed a bit more like selfish promotion of himself and his group.

fed the 5 year old a load of lines then pretended it was all the kid talking

georgieporgy

Yeah like, I'm sure God wouldn't take a 5 year old to heaven and show him around ( and he wasn't even catholic)

Seaneh

I'd like to expand on my earlier rant.

The reason the "we're all going to heaven" thing bothers me is this.

I think it causes the vast majority of Christian to completely miss the point.
Jesus talked about the kingdom being present and being now, not later, somwhere else.

The Christians who have this image of somewhere else, later, are fooled into thinking that the earth, now, isn't important, and they can coast.

It really bothers me.

totus tuus

This 4 year old girl from an athiest background allegedly went to Heaven and started painting what she saw!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaJXVwp-mO4

totus tuus

Seaneh wrote: »

I'd like to expand on my earlier rant.

The reason the "we're all going to heaven" thing bothers me is this.

I think it causes the vast majority of Christian to completely miss the point.
Jesus talked about the kingdom being present and being now, not later, somwhere else.

The Christians who have this image of somewhere else, later, are fooled into thinking that the earth, now, isn't important, and they can coast.

It really bothers me.

John 18:36

Seaneh

totus tuus wrote: »

This 4 year old girl from an athiest background allegedly went to Heaven and started painting what she saw!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaJXVwp-mO4

So she painted pictures of a white, italian looking Jesus...

Well, colour me sceptical.

Fanny Cradock

Seaneh, you should read some Tom Wright, specifically Surprised by Hope. In the book he talks about what the earliest Christians believed and how Christianity began to be unduly influenced by platonism, specifically how physicality was something to be left behind and how the idea of an ethereal existence (playing harps on clouds) took hold. I guess one could also point to additional influences like Dante's Inferno which presented powerful ideas about the afterlife but ideas that had little to do with Biblical exegesis.

Benny_Cake

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I guess one could also point to additional influences like Dante's Inferno which presented powerful ideas about the afterlife but ideas that had little to do with Biblical exegesis.

Not to mention the concept of Satan ruling hell - largely thanks to John Milton.

Bloodwing

Sure while we're on the topic of heaven I have a quick question. My mother Is a devout catholic so I'm fairly certain she'll be let in to live in eternal happiness. I however have publicly denied the holy spirit and as a result I'm condemned to suffer in hell for eternity. Now my mother loves me so how can she be eternally happy whilst knowing I'm suffering eternally?

Thanks.

philologos

Seaneh wrote: »

I'd like to expand on my earlier rant.

The reason the "we're all going to heaven" thing bothers me is this.

I think it causes the vast majority of Christian to completely miss the point.
Jesus talked about the kingdom being present and being now, not later, somwhere else.

The Christians who have this image of somewhere else, later, are fooled into thinking that the earth, now, isn't important, and they can coast.

It really bothers me.

There will be a new earth and a new Jerusalem though (Revelation 21), the Christian life will be to a great deal defined by this future hope and telling others about it. It should affect our conduct in this life, not looking to what is temporal but what is eternal.

I thought I'd bring that up lest there be any confusion that Christians actually believe in an afterlife and an eternity with God.

philologos

Neilos wrote: »

Sure while we're on the topic of heaven I have a quick question. My mother Is a devout catholic so I'm fairly certain she'll be let in to live in eternal happiness. I however have publicly denied the holy spirit and as a result I'm condemned to suffer in hell for eternity. Now my mother loves me so how can she be eternally happy whilst knowing I'm suffering eternally?

Thanks.

That's a misunderstanding of what is means to "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit". It doesn't say that anyone who has ever blasphemed against the Holy Spirit can't be forgiven. We looked at this in a thread on Mark 3:7 - 3:35, I'd suggest giving it a read.

bonniebede

Neilos wrote: »

Sure while we're on the topic of heaven I have a quick question. My mother Is a devout catholic so I'm fairly certain she'll be let in to live in eternal happiness. I however have publicly denied the holy spirit and as a result I'm condemned to suffer in hell for eternity. Now my mother loves me so how can she be eternally happy whilst knowing I'm suffering eternally?


Thanks.

blasphemy against the holy spirit is refusing right to the end to ask for forgiveness for your sins. As you have not died yet, you can't have committed this sin!
If hell is where you want to be, maybe she will be happy for you, that you are where you would prefer to be. Should she be happy to force you into heaven where you would be unhappy because you don't want to be there?

bonniebede

Seaneh wrote: »

Right.

One thing that I have never, ever been able to wrap my head around is when other Christians talk about "being in heaven for eternity".

As far as I can read in scripture, humans won't be in heaven, they will be on earth, a new earth granted, but earth none-the-less, where has this idea that we will all be playing harps and singing kumbaya in clouds dressed in togas come from? Why do so many learned and intelligent Christians proliferate this image and how the heck can I make them stop?

The one thing that really erks me about it is when people say stuff like "It's gonna be like one never ending worship session and we will all be with God" and other such tosh. Where the flip are they getting this from?

Jesus talks about this age and the age to come but he talks about the age to come being a very present, real, earthly thing, a whole, fixed earth, but he doesn't talk about humans being in heaven.


These are just some of the things that puzzle me...


Don't even get me started on stuff like that book some pastor in the US wrote and then passed off as his 5 year olds about "heaven is for real".

The book of revelation shows the martyrs already around the throne of god. chapter seven i think, off the top of me head:rolleyes:

lmaopml

Seaneh wrote: »

I'd like to expand on my earlier rant.

The reason the "we're all going to heaven" thing bothers me is this.

I think it causes the vast majority of Christian to completely miss the point.
Jesus talked about the kingdom being present and being now, not later, somwhere else.

The Christians who have this image of somewhere else, later, are fooled into thinking that the earth, now, isn't important, and they can coast.

It really bothers me.

I agree with you Seaneh, 'The Kingdom' is the body of Christ and the Kingdom is being built up here on earth since Pentecost.

I think most of those NDE stories are bogus tbh - although some are interesting........When the person who experienced it starts writing books and cashing in cheques and then getting 'new' revelations, and followers etc. well something stinks! I read the intro on Amazon to the book in your OP, it sounds crap, can't believe it was a best seller...


Heaven is often paralleled with 'Paradise', 'The Kingdom of God, The New Jerusalem, etc. There are some Religions such as the Mormons and 7th Day Adventists, the JW's (??) who believe that people are all just asleep in this timeframe and their Soul is asleep too awaiting the descent of the 'New Jerusalem' after the second coming of Christ and final judgement. They don't believe he opened the doors of Heaven on the Cross or descended to the dead either - Very few Christians believe what they believe....

From a Catholic perspective, we believe there is a Heaven, with 'Saints' in it, it's also referred to as 'The Kingdom' within Catholicism too - and will be a New Earth - However, there is no specific doctrine that I know of as to where or what that New Earth looks like, or what they do there..lol.....

I'd imagine being in the presense of Christ for a Christian is indeed 'Heaven' or Heavenly

tommy2bad

What little physical description exists comes from Revelations and it's a city which makes our traditional pastoral version odd.
But I suppose thats just people imagining what they most desire, rural nomadic peasants see a city and urban industrial plebes hark back to a pastoral idle.

lmaopml

tommy2bad wrote: »

What little physical description exists comes from Revelations and it's a city which makes our traditional pastoral version odd.
But I suppose thats just people imagining what they most desire, rural nomadic peasants see a city and urban industrial plebes hark back to a pastoral idle.

Lol - could you expand a little Tommy on the Plebs and the Pastors? Not everybody for 2000 years was daft, only daft people believe that... but there was some kind of drifting and disputes, they were always there. You have a bizarre take sometimes, I think a soul in battle, one who is beginning to seek..at least if it's honest, no pride involved it's good - seeking is good.

Jeepurs sometimes I wish my Church took a popular stance, but it won't - I judge myself by it and how it is unswaying - God doesn't change personality. He is constant. He's Holy.

tommy2bad

lmaopml wrote: »

Lol - could you expand a little Tommy on the Plebs and the Pastors? Not everybody for 2000 years was daft, only daft people believe that... but there was some kind of drifting and disputes, they were always there. You have a bizarre take sometimes, I think a soul in battle, one who is beginning to seek..at least if it's honest, no pride involved it's good - seeking is good.

Jeepurs sometimes I wish my Church took a popular stance, but it won't - I judge myself by it and how it is unswaying - God doesn't change personality. He is constant. He's Holy.

Never said anyone was daft, just that theirs no information on what heaven will be like physically and it was pictured to be the most desirable thing. For a nomadic people 2000 years ago that was a bright city with all the amenities that you could imagine. Well we got what we wished for and wouldn't you know it, the goal changed to what we lacked, a rural pastoral dream with lambs and sunshine and flowers.