Avoiding weddings, baptisms etc?

lazygal

I've been following a thread over on Weddings, Marriage and Civil Partnerships about why people may avoid church weddings.

How do people feel about seeing couples they know don't believe have a church wedding? Or baptise their children, have communions, confirmation parties etc? I might be turning into an auld crank but its really beginning to annoy me to see couple after couple, in some cases even those who've done Count Me Out or openly profess to not believe, go through with a church wedding to please the Mammies or a bride/groom who can't think you'd get married outside a church. I'm also at the stage where there's babies being baptized and parties for communions/confirmations, during which parents and even lately grandparents have been saying how they don't believe any of it but sure its a rite of passage, why wouldn't you have the sacraments.

How do you feel getting invited to such events? I know there's a large contingent of cultural Catholics in Ireland and it can be difficult to go against the tide, especially if pressure is being applied from grandparents or social groups to have the ritual celebrations. Its just annoying me that people kind of scoff, even in a light hearted way, at our plans for a humanist naming ceremony (we had a humanist wedding too) yet we're expected to sit through services that very few in attendance really believe in.

BaronVon

I recently got married in a church, the wife wanted to. I objected, but I see it more as a traditional / cultural event, rather than a deeply religious affair.

I'd imagine the priests have a harder time of it, officiating at these ceremonies, knowing that the majority of people present never bother going to mass, or are non-believers.

The real problem for me will be when she wants to baptise the kids.......

highlydebased

It annoys me greatly. As you say, a huge number of them are probably either ignorant to the alternatives or else they are pleasing somebody else.

I for one certainly will not be marrying in a church and I would be surprised if I got no hassle from my mother in particular and my grandparents (if they are still around) over it.

The traditional church wedding is unbelievably boring and unimaginative, to top it all off.

magicbastarder

i couldn't give a toss. let people make their own decisions.

redz11

I'd have no problem attending weddings, funerals and baptisms.

Weddings - it's two grown adults acting out of their own free will. Their beliefs and choices (and whether or not they decide to compromise their beliefs) is their own business. I don't attend weddings of anyone I'm not close to. If I'm there, it is two celebrate the happy union of friends/family members. The way in which they decide to celebrate this is personal to the couple in question. As an atheist, I don't like people judging my (lack of) belief - I do the same in return.

Funerals - I actually find it nice to see family members sometimes deriving some peace from their faith and belief in an afterlife. I don't believe myself, but that's neither here nor there. I am there to offer sympathy and support to the bereaved friends and family members.

Baptisms - it does irk me slightly that parents are willing to stand up there and lie, when they don't believe themselves, usually just to keep their family happy. I'd attend these ceremonies (for the babies of close friends/family members), but I see it as me being there to celebrate the child having been brought into the world. I guess, the way I see it, me making a stand and refusing to attend is not going to change a thing - the child will be baptised anyways. It's a case of choosing your battles - the vast majority of Irish parents baptise their babies, I'm not going to fall out with a friend or family member over their choices as parents - not over whether they baptise their child, anyways. I don't really see that it's my business.

I'd probably avoid Communions and Confirmations. I've attended a couple in recent years, and it really bothered me seeing all the young brainwashed children, chanting and singing and making promises far beyond their comprehension. I felt quite uncomfortable, really, so would avoid in future.

I'll also mention that, while I'm from a practicing Catholic background, I will never have a Catholic wedding or have any children of mine baptised. No amount of pressure from my strictly Catholic parents could ever change my mind with regard to these things. I respect anyone else's beliefs, but I very much expect the same respect in return.

Over the past three years I've been to about a dozen religious events: christenings, communions, confirmations and weddings. Those involved (the parents of the children getting baptised etc., or those getting married) were as good as atheists, yet they chose to go the traditional route despite this. Does it bother me? No, not at all; it used to slightly, though. If I believe that the RCC and all of its sacraments are complete nonsense, then it follows that I should believe they hold no meaning. If they hold no meaning then they should cause no annoyance--I'm not going to let something which I believe to mean nothing cause me annoyance, in other words.

What I do find annoying, though, is having to waste an hour or so every so often sitting in a church. I tend to just sit down--ignoring the whole stand-sit-kneel nonsense--and count things: bricks on walls, total number of people, etc. You'd be amazed how much time counting consumes. Also, even though it's a complete waste of time to sit and count, it's still a better use of time than listening to the nonsense spewing from the priest's mouth.

Blowfish

I've never actually been to any christenings, communions or confirmations and don't think I ever will. Weddings and funerals I'd view differently as they aren't solely religious events. I'd still want to be pretty close to the people involved before I'd go though as I always find the ceremonial bit fairly awkward and uncomfortable.

As for getting married in a church myself just to keep people happy, absolutely no way that's happening. I'd see going through the sacraments as being incredibly dishonest with myself and what I believe. Starting the marraige off with a lie is not something I'd want to do.

doctoremma

lazygal wrote: »

How do people feel about seeing couples they know don't believe have a church wedding?

Regarding the couple, it doesn't bother me in the slightest - their choice entirely, whether it's from genuine conviction or for a pretty picture. Don't get me wrong, and to echo an earlier poster, it's boring, sitting there going through the framed list of parish priests next to your pew, trying to work out their average age at death. But it passes the time.

There was some pressure from my parents for me to get married in a church. I laughed out loud and that settled the matter.

lazygal wrote: »

Or baptise their children, have communions, confirmation parties etc?

These are obviously far less common in the UK than in Ireland. I've attended only two christenings (one Catholic) and no communions/confirmations (aside from my own).

I recently became a "guidemother" to my friends' child, where I promised to always look out for her and never allow her to listen to boy bands. This was part of a naming ceremony in their garden, accompanied by plenty of beer and a hog roast. That's how it should be.

robindch

doctoremma wrote: »

This was part of a naming ceremony in their garden, accompanied by plenty of beer and a hog roast.

Are you an islamic or a jewish atheist?

swimming in a sea

infacteh wrote: »

I recently got married in a church, the wife wanted to. I objected, but I see it more as a traditional / cultural event, rather than a deeply religious affair.

I'd imagine the priests have a harder time of it, officiating at these ceremonies, knowing that the majority of people present never bother going to mass, or are non-believers.

The real problem for me will be when she wants to baptise the kids.......

Did you have to do a pre-marriage course? as I've said before to my girlfriend that I may do church wedding for her, but never in a million years would I do some RC pre wedding course. She says you can't have church wedding so, which suits me.

BaronVon

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Did you have to do a pre-marriage course?

No, the priest was a friend of her family, so he gave us a pass on the marriage course! Plus we saved a couple of hundred quid by not doing it....

stinkle

lazygal wrote: »

Its just annoying me that people kind of scoff, even in a light hearted way, at our plans for a humanist naming ceremony (we had a humanist wedding too) yet we're expected to sit through services that very few in attendance really believe in.

I've been following that thread too lazygal. We've gotten a bit of pressure regarding not having a religious wedding and it really upset me at the time, the sheer lack of respect for our beliefs (or lack of them!) was astonishing. It was as if we had done something wrong. That's what gets me - it's almost like you still have to apologise for not being religious in Ireland, and while people (assume) they can say what they like to you about it, you're damned if you disrespect their beliefs.

It doesn't bother me so much when it's other people's weddings, but at the same time when you hear someone going on and on stressing about church/pre-marriage course/other non essential churchy weddingy things then it can be hard to listen to and very hard to take seriously if they're normally anti-religion. Not everyone is like that of course.

Someone in work recently had a humanist wedding, which is what we want ourselves, and there was a fair bit of scoffing too. People are so closed minded sometimes

Gbear

I'd go to weddings and funerals of a religious nature - there are more important things than my personal beliefs afoot in those cases.

But christenings and baptisms, other than the fact that I find them abhorrent, are trivial bollocks anyway so it's no skin off anyone's nose when my family and I (2nd generation atheist. WOO! ) avoid the religious lark for our cousins and so on.

On a personal note, I wouldn't have my own wedding in a religious setting under any circumstances but that shouldn't be a problem because, although I have nothing against the notion in principle, I couldn't see myself marrying a religious person.

magicbastarder

i got married in a humanist ceremony recently, and there was not a whiff of criticism; any comment i heard was positive about the whole thing.

kylith

I would never turn down an invitation to a religious ceremony. I figuret that if I had a friend who was, say, hindu, and they asked me to their child's naming ceremony I'd go, so I'd do the same for any christian friends/family members. Also if I refused to go to a baptism/communion/wedding in a church my mother would never let me hear the end of it.

doctoremma wrote: »

it's boring, sitting there going through the framed list of parish priests next to your pew, trying to work out their average age at death. But it passes the time.

I like to work out how to best turn the church into a house when, inevitably, it's sold by the church. I've decided that I want a library in a belfry.

doctoremma

kylith wrote: »

I like to work out how to best turn the church into a house when, inevitably, it's sold by the church. I've decided that I want a library in a belfry.

And a bed on the altar?

magicbastarder

nah, a nice six ring gas hob in the altar. and a good oven in the tabernacle.

actually, it'd be more in keeping to turn the tabernacle into a bread bin or drinks cabinet.

doctoremma

magicbastarder wrote: »

nah, a nice six ring gas hob in the altar. and a good oven in the tabernacle.

actually, it'd be more in keeping to turn the tabernacle into a bread bin or drinks cabinet.

Ha, beat me to it.

A tabernacle would be a magic oven - bread in, meat out.

Sulla Felix

kylith wrote: »

I like to work out how to best turn the church into a house when, inevitably, it's sold by the church. I've decided that I want a library in a belfry.

I do free body diagrams in my head. Built in vain perhaps, but a lot of churches are an embodiment of reason and physics as used by humanity.

kylith

doctoremma wrote: »

And a bed on the altar?

Nah, on the choir balcony.

magicbastarder wrote: »

nah, a nice six ring gas hob in the altar. and a good oven in the tabernacle.

Yeah, big range where the alter is, it'd be nice to have the kitchen on that railsed bit.

actually, it'd be more in keeping to turn the tabernacle into a bread bin or drinks cabinet.

Bread bin, definitely. I like the idea of using slices of Jesus to make sandwiches.

krankykitty

I use the time to think about kittens, or who Man Utd might sign next. I don't mind if the participants actually believe, but when I'm well aware they don't it just feels like a waste of time

iguana

On principle I hate the thought of non-religious people having religious ceremonies like weddings because it just perpetuates the feeling that a 'normal' wedding is a church one. In reality though, I guess it's up to the couple and if that's what they want to do, I don't mind too much. Apart from the fact that I find the ceremony extremely boring, something that I know I'm not alone in and I think it's such a pity for the couple that a huge amount of their guests are just sitting through the wedding counting down the minutes until it ends.

The kid stuff creeps me out though. I hate going to baptisms, communions and confirmations. I might be atheist but I do respect other people's religious/spiritual beliefs if they are honestly held by a person who has given the subject a lot of thought and found a path that they believe in. Child indoctrination is the opposite to that. It's disrespectful to those who have a genuine faith and it's beyond disrespectful to the children as it hinders them in finding their own religious/non-religious path. And fair or unfair, considering the history that the RCC has with children in this country and the fact the church is still covering up for and defending the perpetrators of abuse, I am not at all comfortable with those ceremonies. I'm not sure if I would refuse to go to the baptism of a close family member but I'd have to give it a lot of thought.

The only one that I don't mind is funerals. We are still at a point in this country where in many cases of death the 'chief mourners' are likely to have some true belief and anything that provides comfort to the bereaved is ok, as far as I'm concerned. The last funeral I was at was my uncle's and my grandmother does have strong faith so I wouldn't have liked to see her hurt any more than she already was at the loss of her son, by removing the comfort she has at the thought of him in heaven.

lazygal

Just thought I'd extend this a little. Both myself and my husband have been asked to be godparents over the past couple of years, in one case for a very close family member's child. We've (kindly and calmly) refused, explaining that as its a religious role and we are not followers of the faith, we couldn't make the promises and offer ourselves as spiritual guides for the child. In the case of our family, this caused, pardon the pun, an unholy row, with lots of 'you're over thinking it, its a purely symbolic role' and a lot of emotional blackmail being applied. We stood firm and while the people involved had others be godparents, its a sore point that we refused. I know a lot of people in our position might be happy to be a godparent, but we just couldn't be an active part of infant baptism, something I strongly disagree with anyway, when we wouldn't have a notion of going along with the promises.

Anyone else experienced this?

iguana

I've thankfully never been asked to be a godparent but I could never do it. It's a decision I made as a teenager and I've never changed my mind. I doubt I'll ever be asked anyway as my sister-in-law isn't having her children baptised. My brother-in-law's girlfriend won't take communion at a family mass, so if they have children I doubt they'll be baptised. My youngest brother is single but I suspect feels too strongly about his atheism to ever consider baptising any children he might have. And my other brother is atheist so even if his girlfriend did want to baptise any children they might have and she wins the argument my brother would not be likely to ask me to do it and if he did wouldn't be insulted by my refusal.

Finding out my sister-in-law isn't baptising her babies was a massive relief for my husband and me as there will be less than 6 months between hers and our first, who's due in 3 months. If she had baptised hers, our lack of baptism would stand out hugely. At least this way if it ever becomes an issue we can all back each other up.

ShooterSF

I haven't been asked yet but Im one of two siblings along with my younger sister who is a believer in the loosest terms and if she has kids down the line I'm likely to be asked. I don't think I could do it but it's not as strong a feeling as I have about my own wedding and children; Neither of which will ever happen

magicbastarder

lazygal wrote: »

Anyone else experienced this?

i was asked to be a godfather to my niece - my brother just told me to stand on the altar and not open my mouth.

stinkle

When kids are being confirmed its common for a godparent to be their sponsor. Do the parents who put pressure on you to be a 'non religious' or 'symbolic' godparent look that far down the line? Id hate to be a forced godparent and then upset the kid 12 years later if I was asked to be a sponsor

doctoremma

lazygal wrote: »

Just thought I'd extend this a little. Both myself and my husband have been asked to be godparents over the past couple of years, in one case for a very close family member's child. We've (kindly and calmly) refused....Anyone else experienced this?

Both my best friend and my oldest friend have had their (total) five children baptised and at no point have I been asked to be a godparent. A lifetime of conversations outlining our opposing views on religion obviously did the trick!

As mentioned before though, I AM an official guideparent to another friend's child. And I suppose I'm an unofficial guideparent to any of my friends' children!

lazygal

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was asked to be a godfather to my niece - my brother just told me to stand on the altar and not open my mouth.

And did you? I'm interested because when my husband refused to be godfather to the child, his brother was pressed into service, with a similar 'it's nothing, just go along with it, it doesn't really involve anything' proviso. Yet on the day, he was part of the ceremony, had to recite the mumbo jumbo along with the godmother and certainly wasn't a passive participant. He wasn't too impressed but at the alter, he went along with the whole shebang.

Sarky

I don't think my nephew HAS a godparent, but I'm sure as hell gonna teach him all about the important stuff, like whiskey and classic rock. I might even wait until he's old enough :pac:

magicbastarder

lazygal wrote: »

And did you?

i didn't have to say anything, unusually. that priest is known for his 'get'em in and get em out' approach to weddings and christenings though.

iguana

stinkle wrote: »

When kids are being confirmed its common for a godparent to be their sponsor. Do the parents who put pressure on you to be a 'non religious' or 'symbolic' godparent look that far down the line? Id hate to be a forced godparent and then upset the kid 12 years later if I was asked to be a sponsor

It's a possibility, it's certainly what is supposed to happen, however at least for the bigger ceremonies it's now common for the class teacher to stand in that role for each child in the class as it's quicker.

stinkle

iguana wrote: »

It's a possibility, it's certainly what is supposed to happen, however at least for the bigger ceremonies it's now common for the class teacher to stand in that role for each child in the class as it's quicker.

that's fair enough,and a good idea - shows how out of touch I am! Was only asking as it's all well and good agreeing to stand around at a baptism and say very little so as not to cause a family row, it's another thing if 12 years later the child specifically asks you to do whatever it is a sponsor is meant to do. It'd be awful to be in that position, and maybe upset the kid, which is why I'd probably just put my foot down immediately if it arose at the time of the christening. Haven;t been asked yet, but the baby boom has only just started in our family and among friends.

IF we ever end up having kids it'll be hilarious - OH's mam is not impressed that our wedding won't be religious, and therefore thinks we shouldn't get any kids baptised since we don't believe (in the same breath expressed disappointment that there'd be no parties for christenings, communions etc :rolleyes:). That's grand you'd think, but while my own mother is totally fine with a civil wedding, she was upset when I pointed out that we wouldn't be indoctrinating any children. agh!

kerash

lazygal wrote: »

I've been following a thread over on Weddings, Marriage and Civil Partnerships about why people may avoid church weddings.

How do people feel about seeing couples they know don't believe have a church wedding? Or baptise their children, have communions, confirmation parties etc? I might be turning into an auld crank but its really beginning to annoy me to see couple after couple, in some cases even those who've done Count Me Out or openly profess to not believe, go through with a church wedding to please the Mammies or a bride/groom who can't think you'd get married outside a church. I'm also at the stage where there's babies being baptized and parties for communions/confirmations, during which parents and even lately grandparents have been saying how they don't believe any of it but sure its a rite of passage, why wouldn't you have the sacraments.

How do you feel getting invited to such events? I know there's a large contingent of cultural Catholics in Ireland and it can be difficult to go against the tide, especially if pressure is being applied from grandparents or social groups to have the ritual celebrations. Its just annoying me that people kind of scoff, even in a light hearted way, at our plans for a humanist naming ceremony (we had a humanist wedding too) yet we're expected to sit through services that very few in attendance really believe in.

Yep my feelings exactly. I have been told to be free for a Christening soon, not asked, told! I won't be going, I'm fine with attending the afters but I do not want anything to do with the baptism as I totally disagree with it. I was told recently 'oh sure I don't believe either but you go to pass yourself off'... That's the attitude I detest, you do not do something just because everyone else is doing it or because of what people say if you don't. I won't be a hypocrite either.
We have another family occasion coming up where there will be a mass in the house and a few of us will attend but not go in for the mass when it's going on. I'm sure there will be a few raised eyebrows on the day. Half of my fam in praying away and the rest of us drooling over cake in the kitchen. I'll let you know how it goes :P

pwurple

kerash, it's far better you don't go to an event you don't want to be at.

I personally don't have any problem going to bar mitzfah's, puja, baptisms, whatever. I'd go to the opening of a packet of crisps though, always love an excuse for a party! I consider it an honour to be invited and I've always taken it as a sign of respect for me. I know a few people who weren't invited to their nieces and nephews baptisms because of a family falling out, it was a deliberate slight intended to exclude them. Being invited shows you have a healthy intact family of people who respect and include you, a very good sign indeed.

I invited people from a few faiths and non-faiths to our daughters baptism as they are part of our family, including athiests. They all came along, but I wouldn't have minded if they didn't want to.

I have jehova witness friends who don't do christmas stuff (obviously), and they just go on holidays at that time, rather than be putting up with trees and carols and the whole country decked out. I know the christmas, easter, st patricks day stuff can be completely in your face if you're not a participant. They make the most of the national days off and take a decent holiday. Win win.

If it gets up your nose to see people being religious around you, then defo skip it. Better to avoid these things if they irk you, for your blood pressure if nothing else.

ShooterSF

pwurple wrote: »

If it gets up your nose to see people being religious around you, then defo skip it. Better to avoid these things if they irk you, for your blood pressure if nothing else.

The problem for me is my main issue is with baptisms christenings etc because I see them as childhood indoctrination but while I'd be happy to just politely decline it gets difficult when pressed for a reason without insulting someone or just looking like you can't be arsed going.

You say we'd be better off not going and I agree, I just wish others felt the same way. Most people will expect you to go and expect a damn good reason for not going and it's not easy when that reason if verbalised could damage your relationship. It's a toughie!

lazygal

ShooterSF wrote: »

The problem for me is my main issue is with baptisms christenings etc because I see them as childhood indoctrination but while I'd be happy to just politely decline it gets difficult when pressed for a reason without insulting someone or just looking like you can't be arsed going.

You say we'd be better off not going and I agree, I just wish others felt the same way. Most people will expect you to go and expect a damn good reason for not going and it's not easy when that reason if verbalised could damage your relationship. It's a toughie!

I've found this too. People nearly take it as a personal attack on their beliefs when we have explained why we won't attend a baptism, communion or confirmation ceremony. We would rather not have to get into just why we object to it so much, but people have almost demanded a solid reason why we won't be attending. It also annoys me that these ceremonies are always seen as 'legitimate' whereas when we told friends and family of our plans for a humanist naming ceremony, there were more than a couple of 'sure that's a bit makey-uppy' comments. If I suggested a baptism was 'makey-uppy' I bet a lot of people would get quite huffy.


On another note, when I was a nipper, communions etc were for immediate family, i.e. my parents and siblings, when did they become an excuse for adults to have another p!ss up? Any post-sacrament parties we've been to have been much more about the adults having a shindig and the children are nearly an inconvenience.

iguana

lazygal wrote: »

I've found this too. People nearly take it as a personal attack on their beliefs when we have explained why we won't attend a baptism, communion or confirmation ceremony.

Do you refuse to attend ceremonies or just to take part? Deep down I'd prefer to refuse to attend and it wouldn't be too hard to avoid an extended family member's event. But I'm not sure how I'd manage to avoid it if a sibling of mine or my husband's did decided to baptise. Do you also avoid any post ceremony celebration?

stinkle

lazygal wrote: »

ShooterSF wrote: »

On another note, when I was a nipper, communions etc were for immediate family, i.e. my parents and siblings, when did they become an excuse for adults to have another p!ss up? Any post-sacrament parties we've been to have been much more about the adults having a shindig and the children are nearly an inconvenience.

This! I remember just visiting people for a bit and going for a nice meal, when did it turn into a mini wedding that everyone is expected to drop everything for? if it was an actual tradition you could forgive people for being offended if you don't attend, but this malarkey is barely ten years old I'd say, and you'd think the parents would be more open minded

lazygal

iguana wrote: »

Do you refuse to attend ceremonies or just to take part? Deep down I'd prefer to refuse to attend and it wouldn't be too hard to avoid an extended family member's event. But I'm not sure how I'd manage to avoid it if a sibling of mine or my husband's did decided to baptise. Do you also avoid any post ceremony celebration?

We attended the baptism where my husband had declined to be godfather. It was close family and we'd caused enough ruckus with the godfather thing. Given our families, it is unlikely there'll be another baptism which gets us off the hook, but there will be communion and confirmations taking place in a couple of years, we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

I attend weddings, funerals etc, I don't take communion and have declined to do a reading for the wedding of a good friend (CofI wedding) who totally understood why I didn't feel right doing it. But the ceremonies with children both annoy and upset me. We've managed to avoid having to attend them (thank goodness for small churches where only family can attend ) but have attended the post ceremony celebrations. It's a fine line between having our own feelings about such ceremonies and the social niceties that are part and parcel of living in what is a country still dominated by sacramental rites of passage.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

On another note, when I was a nipper, communions etc were for immediate family, i.e. my parents and siblings, when did they become an excuse for adults to have another p!ss up? Any post-sacrament parties we've been to have been much more about the adults having a shindig and the children are nearly an inconvenience.

Yes, the huge piss up after a communion is weird and a bit... tacky.

wp_rathead

magicbastarder wrote: »

i didn't have to say anything, unusually. that priest is known for his 'get'em in and get em out' approach to weddings and christenings though.

..must.. resist.. urge.. to..not.. make.. joke..
:pac: