What's the story with Dublin's obsession with schools?

evolving_doors

Just to follow a point in another thread from Fuinseog ...

Fuinseog wrote: »

in places like Dublin you are also often judged by your address.

What is the story with that, when I moved to dublin and did the Hdip nearly every one of the lecturers had to slip in where they come from for some bizarre reason, even TP supervisor/subject tutors. It was like they were 'in the closet' unless they purged themselves of the truth..
Even any other dubs I've met ask me what school I went to , when I say it was such and such school down in boggerland they just look into their pints and skulk off, confused... I think they don;t actually care if it was posh or not, they just HAVE to know to be able to define you as a person.

Also a fellow colleague who was in the same situation . moved to dublin and settled.. but now tearing her hair out looking for a 'good school' for her kids... she said [paraphrasing]... "whatever it is about dublin, since I've moved here and had a family, it's all about the bloody schools and where you come from, where I came from you just go to the school up the road with all the other folks - from whatever socio economic class level- and do your best, and go to college if you want"

It reminds me of a documentary I saw on Belfast where it was just ingrained in the back of every single persons mind when they meet new people.. "are they catholic or protestant, catholic or protestant?"

Is this just a Dublin phenomenon?

spurious

People think it makes a difference which school a child goes to.

Some schools perpetuate this nonsense.

Anyone who has ever taught knows the overriding factors are parental interest, support and involvement with their child.

Certain children come from households where the ground work already done means they could sit in a ditch and do well, others could spend twenty years with the best facilities in the world and it's not going to make a difference because their groundwork means they and their parents do not consider school important or worthwhile.

There are some parents who never show up - for anything - enrolment, awards days, parent teacher meetings, performances, anything. They do not and possibly cannot read to their child, the child never sees books in the house etc.. The self styled 'better' schools will steer these children elsewhere of course, but even if they were to enrol them, they are unlikely to catch up with their peers.

bdoo

Im not sure that it is a dublin only issue. Look at any town in Ireland with a vec school, a convent and a cbs or whatever.

The vec school is always bottom of the list. Snobbery mainly. I went to my local school (vec) did a bit of work got a decent lc and so on.

My cousins all went to fee paying schools. Then fee paying repeat lc schools.

i wanted to do well and knew i had obe go at it. They could do as they liked.

Parental attitude. Personal attitude. Then background. Then school maybe. People havent a clue.

Boys in blazers = good school!

Fuinseog

Armelodie wrote: »

Just to follow a point in another thread from Fuinseog ...



What is the story with that, when I moved to dublin and did the Hdip nearly every one of the lecturers had to slip in where they come from for some bizarre reason, even TP supervisor/subject tutors. It was like they were 'in the closet' unless they purged themselves of the truth..
Even any other dubs I've met ask me what school I went to , when I say it was such and such school down in boggerland they just look into their pints and skulk off, confused... I think they don;t actually care if it was posh or not, they just HAVE to know to be able to define you as a person.

Also a fellow colleague who was in the same situation . moved to dublin and settled.. but now tearing her hair out looking for a 'good school' for her kids... she said [paraphrasing]... "whatever it is about dublin, since I've moved here and had a family, it's all about the bloody schools and where you come from, where I came from you just go to the school up the road with all the other folks - from whatever socio economic class level- and do your best, and go to college if you want"

It reminds me of a documentary I saw on Belfast where it was just ingrained in the back of every single persons mind when they meet new people.. "are they catholic or protestant, catholic or protestant?"

Is this just a Dublin phenomenon?

its about networking and mixing with the 'right sort'. the private schools look after their own. its not an exaggeration to say that you will walk into a job if the employer is an old boy. its lampooned a lot in Ross O Carroll Kelly books.
in terms of facilities very often the community school will be just as good as the private school.
as I said in Dublin you are judged and labelled by your address and school.

you do have so called rugby schools outside of Dublin that carry on with this.

evolving_doors

bdoo wrote: »

Im not sure that it is a dublin only issue. Look at any town in Ireland with a vec school, a convent and a cbs or whatever.

The vec school is always bottom of the list. Snobbery mainly. I went to my local school (vec) did a bit of work got a decent lc and so on.

My cousins all went to fee paying schools. Then fee paying repeat lc schools.

i wanted to do well and knew i had obe go at it. They could do as they liked.

Parental attitude. Personal attitude. Then background. Then school maybe. People havent a clue.

Boys in blazers = good school!

Think that's changing as regards vec's, I personally know of about 4 around the country that have gotten fairly good demand for them, all have fairly newish facilities though, so that's probably it.

evolving_doors

spurious wrote: »

People think it makes a difference which school a child goes to.

Some schools perpetuate this nonsense.

Anyone who has ever taught knows the overriding factors are parental interest, support and involvement with their child.

Certain children come from households where the ground work already done means they could sit in a ditch and do well, others could spend twenty years with the best facilities in the world and it's not going to make a difference because their groundwork means they and their parents do not consider school important or worthwhile.

There are some parents who never show up - for anything - enrolment, awards days, parent teacher meetings, performances, anything. They do not and possibly cannot read to their child, the child never sees books in the house etc.. The self styled 'better' schools will steer these children elsewhere of course, but even if they were to enrol them, they are unlikely to catch up with their peers.

Totally agree, but what strikes me is how it appears to be so ingrained in the Dublin psyche, any other place round the country and nobody gives a toss. I suppose it's because of such a large population and all the dwelling areas around dublin are so distinctive even though they may be just a few metres apart.

gaeilgegrinds1

Our local VEC schools are impossible to get into. Things are definately changing!

Fuinseog

bdoo wrote: »

Im not sure that it is a dublin only issue. Look at any town in Ireland with a vec school, a convent and a cbs or whatever.

The vec school is always bottom of the list. Snobbery mainly. I went to my local school (vec) did a bit of work got a decent lc and so on.

My cousins all went to fee paying schools. Then fee paying repeat lc schools.

i wanted to do well and knew i had obe go at it. They could do as they liked.

Parental attitude. Personal attitude. Then background. Then school maybe. People havent a clue.

Boys in blazers = good school!

its hard to judge wih VECs as its hard to find work in one. everything seems to run over a central office and they will keep you waiting for ages before telling you whether you got the job. i have heard you can be kept waiting for your pay in a VEC as well.
went for an interview in one last year and they told me if I got the job I would start at the end of august but would have to reapply for the job at the end of september.

Fuinseog

Armelodie wrote: »

Totally agree, but what strikes me is how it appears to be so ingrained in the Dublin psyche, any other place round the country and nobody gives a toss. I suppose it's because of such a large population and all the dwelling areas around dublin are so distinctive even though they may be just a few metres apart.

apart from maybe Kilkenny College, Newbridge, Roscrea and Glenstal.you also have the north south thing in Dublin, which some take very seriously.

bdoo

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Our local VEC schools are impossible to get into. Things are definately changing!

The vecs around me have had new schools built over the past ten years or so. It does affect numbers.

Some people still view tge vec school as the 'tech' wher ruffians and such go.

I remember reading that book by anne lodge and kateen lynch about equality in schools a few years back.

They foind that certain schools discourage parents by specifying expensive uniforms and things like that so that parents with littke money cant afford to send their kids there.

School motto. Fees up, rif-raf out!

implausible

bdoo wrote: »

They foind that certain schools discourage parents by specifying expensive uniforms and things like that so that parents with littke money cant afford to send their kids there.

Things are very slow to change in some areas. I teach in a large town where we are the bottom of the heap - after the gaelcholáiste, convent school and the boys' diocesan college. Despite a recent excellent WSE, a large proportion of students going onto third level and national prizes in extra-curricular competitions, we are still 'the teach' and have lost teachers due to falling enrolment. Parents of children with special needs are told that 'the tech' can better serve their children (and we can), but the result is that we end up with a disproportionate amount of students with special needs, non-fluent English speakers and travellers, which perpetuates the negative image of our school. One of the other schools charges a €100 enrolment fee (in 5th class!) which excludes many low-income families and ensures that we get a disproportionate percentage of students from disadvantaged backgrounds. It is very disheartening.

Parents and students who transfer into our school sing its praises - the class sizes, facilities and teachers who know their names and actually have conversations with them, but it's nigh impossible to compete with the reputation and spin of the 'good' schools.

This turned into an essay, apologies:o

evolving_doors

implausible wrote: »

Things are very slow to change in some areas. I teach in a large town where we are the bottom of the heap - after the gaelcholáiste, convent school and the boys' diocesan college. Despite a recent excellent WSE, a large proportion of students going onto third level and national prizes in extra-curricular competitions, we are still 'the teach' and have lost teachers due to falling enrolment. Parents of children with special needs are told that 'the tech' can better serve their children (and we can), but the result is that we end up with a disproportionate amount of students with special needs, non-fluent English speakers and travellers, which perpetuates the negative image of our school. One of the other schools charges a €100 enrolment fee (in 5th class!) which excludes many low-income families and ensures that we get a disproportionate percentage of students from disadvantaged backgrounds. It is very disheartening.

Parents and students who transfer into our school sing its praises - the class sizes, facilities and teachers who know their names and actually have conversations with them, but it's nigh impossible to compete with the reputation and spin of the 'good' schools.

This turned into an essay, apologies:o

I often wonder that in these 'high achieving' league table schools, it's just all about the rote learning towards the exam, basically that's what the parents want.. the high points..

Now that's all well and good but if the system were to change (e.g. new JC curriculum (all pie in the sky at the moment)) and it became more about continuous assessment/collaboration/group work/cross curricular etc then I feel that the teachers with experience of these methods (VEC's with LCA,LCVP) will be 'shovel ready' in comparison to those 'traditional' schools with the LC and JC established... as you've mentioned you have a disproportionate amount of students with special needs, non-fluent English speakers and travellers. Now, i'm not a psychic but I can imagine that you really have to be adaptable to the students learning styles in these situations more so than 'talk and chalk', so in a sense as a teacher you really are learning new things every time, rather than just handing out the same old notes every year.

A small scale example would be with the implimentation of the new Project MAths syllabus... it was (and still is) very hard to move away from the 'rote learning' and 'procedural' style of teaching for a lot of teachers. Now they have to make sure students actually comprehend what's going on, which requires a different style of teaching altogether.

So i'd say the 'good schools' do the rote learning/teaching towards the exam really well but if the method of assessment were to change the whole Irish Times league tables charade will be turned on it's head.

vamos!

Armelodie wrote: »

I often wonder that in these 'high achieving' league table schools, it's just all about the rote learning towards the exam, basically that's what the parents want.. the high points..

Now that's all well and good but if the system were to change (e.g. new JC curriculum (all pie in the sky at the moment)) and it became more about continuous assessment/collaboration/group work/cross curricular etc then I feel that the teachers with experience of these methods (VEC's with LCA,LCVP) will be 'shovel ready' in comparison to those 'traditional' schools with the LC and JC established... as you've mentioned you have a disproportionate amount of students with special needs, non-fluent English speakers and travellers. Now, i'm not a psychic but I can imagine that you really have to be adaptable to the students learning styles in these situations more so than 'talk and chalk', so in a sense as a teacher you really are learning new things every time, rather than just handing out the same old notes every year.

A small scale example would be with the implimentation of the new Project MAths syllabus... it was (and still is) very hard to move away from the 'rote learning' and 'procedural' style of teaching for a lot of teachers. Now they have to make sure students actually comprehend what's going on, which requires a different style of teaching altogether.

So i'd say the 'good schools' do the rote learning/teaching towards the exam really well but if the method of assessment were to change the whole Irish Times league tables charade will be turned on it's head.

I have worked in a number of schools, ranging from DEIS to what would be considered a 'good' school. The difference I have seen are not the teachers but the students. I find it offensive that there is a perception that teachers in 'good' schools are chalk and talk, note handing-out machines while those in challenging schools are innovative and motivated? Not true from what I have seen. There are good and bad everywhere.

I found that I spent far more time correcting in the academic school, as more work was achieved in a shorter period of time. There was little to no disruption and attendance was good. I did not have to chase the work. I still had to take account of learning styles and differentiate to some degree but it was different to working in a challenging school. I had less corrections there was class sizes were smaller and most students were not as eager to do their homework at length every evening. I spent much more time considering learning styles, abilities and creating differentiated tasks, but as I was working at a slower pace in class for the most part it evened out.

There is no such thing as a handy number in teaching jobs. The problems and challenges are different in different type of schools, but the job is similar. Sadly, I predict that the 'good' schools will continue to be ahead in results even if assessment changes. Parental and students interest and input will probably remain higher in so called 'good' schools.

spurious

Yet another argument to stop the triplicating and duplicating of educational resources in towns all over the country.

Get the schools out of the stranglehold of the churches and build one or two large schools in every town. Perhaps one school per 1200-1500 students.

One school, properly equipped and staffed, taking all children in the area, of all abilities, offering all levels, all subjects - no 'better than', 'suited to his/her needs', 'only if your brother's friend's granny went here' codology.

Miss Lockhart

I think this is an issue anywhere there is a choice of schools - not just in Dublin.

Opinions are definitely changing where I'm from though. The local convent is still seen as the best option for girls. However, the local religious school for boys has seen its reputation diminish rapidly and that is reflected in very unbalanced gender applications to the local VEC school (far more boys than girls). All the secondary schools here are over-subscribed and the VEC school is now probably the hardest to get into and gets the best results, while also catering for a more diverse intake of students.

To be fair to the local Catholic schools here they don't engage in any off-putting policies such as expensive uniforms or high "voluntary contributions".

I work in a DEIS school that is really the only option where it is located. We definitely have more than our fair share of SEN students etc but that's really down to location. One third of our intake have MGLD and about 80% of those were born with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome. You just don't get that in the nearby more affluent areas.

I also have to agree with Vamos that no matter what they do to the curriculum or the assessment system, the "good" schools will remain on top. Parental influence, student interest and lack of disruptive personal circumstances really are the biggest factors in educational success in the conventional sense.