Graham Henry suspects "match fixing" in WC2007 QF

Quint2010

Breaking on twitter...

"Sir Graham Henry says in his new book he suspects match fixing was at play in 2007 loss to France in world cup quarterfinal in Cardiff.....No penalties against France for 50 despite NZ dominating possession - 73 per cent. And of course the forward pass. He wanted IRB inquiry....Asked NZRU to push IRB for inquiry. Uses the word "cheating"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7370102/How-Henry-became-sick-of-referee-Barnes

http://radiosport.co.nz/news/sprug/931105475-sir-graham-henry-reveals-match-fixing-suspicion

Doesn't actually quote him saying "match fixing" or "cheating" but still..

Hagz

Irony

maddragon

Everyone expected New Zealand to steamroll this match if you remember. Would not make sense to try and influence a match where one team seemed to be so superior IMO.

Quint2010

maddragon wrote: »

Everyone expected New Zealand to steamroll this match if you remember. Would not make sense to try and influence a match where one team seemed to be so superior IMO.

True but apparently the French only gave away two penalties in the whole game??? None in the final 50 minutes??

Podge_irl

France not giving away any penalties in the last 50 minutes was certainly very odd.

However, the ABs deserved to lose for the extreme naivety and lack of smarts they displayed in the second half. I don't for a second think it was rigged (and I doubt Henry does at this point either), but NZ merely faced the kind of reffing that they benefit from with great regularity.

Quint2010

Podge_irl wrote: »

France not giving away any penalties in the last 50 minutes was certainly very odd.

Particularly as The AB's had so much possession and territory. Barnes is a poor ref anyway in my opinion. He made a huge error in Cermont this year that possibly cost them the game.

durkadurka

I wonder does he harbour similar suspicions about the semi vs France in 2011?

I do remember the forward passes for French tries, but I also remember the all blacks just not knowing how to win at the end. They totally blew it.

Podge_irl

Quint2010 wrote: »

Particularly as The AB's had so much possession and territory. Barnes is a poor ref anyway in my opinion. He made a huge error in Cermont this year that possibly cost them the game.

What error? When he seemed to call advantage at the end? That certainly confused me looking back at it.

He is good at certain things, but he does miss an awful lot. He was given that game possibly a bit too soon in his career. Still, there isn't a huge number of better refs around (largely because its so damn difficult these days).

Podge_irl

durkadurka wrote: »

I wonder does he harbour similar suspicions about the semi vs France in 2011?

You mean the final?

That was a hell of a lot more one-sided reffing then in 07 in my opinion anyway.

durkadurka

Podge_irl wrote: »

You mean the final?

That was a hell of a lot more one-sided reffing then in 07 in my opinion anyway.

Yeah the final. My bad. He's a bloody terrible loser.

Quint2010

Podge_irl wrote: »

What error? When he seemed to call advantage at the end? That certainly confused me looking back at it.

Yip. He was playing penalty adv. to Clermont. They then gave away a pen themselves. He hadn't called adv. over. Still gave pen to Leinster. That's what Brock James was querying at the end. Clutch decision-bad call.

tolosenc

Quint2010 wrote: »

Yip. He was playing penalty adv. to Clermont. They then gave away a pen themselves. He hadn't called adv. over. Still gave pen to Leinster. That's what Brock James was querying at the end. Clutch decision-bad call.

Re watching it, I think he said "don't touch". Never stuck the arm out either. Brock games also seems to say something about a ruck.

Fishooks12

Henry's PR machine working well here, should sell a few more books now

CatFromHue

"His final analysis was that Barnes missed 40 penalty infringements by France and that if New Zealand had got all the penalties they deserved, the final score should been 42-3 or 42-6"

:pac: Cos the ABs could only give away 3 or 6 penalties per game :pac:

“As far as Graham was concerned, the major reason the All Blacks had lost was not because of conditioning or rotation policies or decisions by his captain, but purely and simply because the officials had refereed only one team, to a degree unprecedented in the history of the sport."

The IRB need to come down on this like a tonne of bricks if you ask me.

thomond2006

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Henry's PR machine working well here, should sell a few more books now

this

CatFromHue wrote: »

“As far as Graham was concerned, the major reason the All Blacks had lost was not because of conditioning or rotation policies or decisions by his captain, but purely and simply because the officials had refereed only one team, to a degree unprecedented in the history of the sport."

The IRB need to come down on this like a tonne of bricks if you ask me.

Is he still in coaching? If he's not then what can the IRB do?

Quint2010

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is he still in coaching? If he's not then what can the IRB do?

Very little I'd say. The NZRU will distance themselves from it but Henry does have a book to flog afterall!

PhatPiggins

Quint2010 wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is he still in coaching? If he's not then what can the IRB do?

Very little I'd say. The NZRU will distance themselves from it but Henry does have a book to flog afterall!

He's currently being very well paid by the Arggentinians as a consultant if that counts.

Podge_irl

PhatPiggins wrote: »

He's currently being very well paid by the Arggentinians as a consultant if that counts.

Wasn't Dean Richards "consultant" to someone while he was banned?

Swiwi

Bit of calm, people. No doubt this comment has been taken out of context, because it makes good press, and gets people on blogs firing off comments. There were a multitude of reasons for the '07 loss, of which refereeing played a part. It suits most people that the ABs lost, and hence objectivity is thrown out the window. From a NZ point of view, France were an average side that year (as witnessed by their semi-final loss), and the game should not have been close. But the combination of rest & rotation, an easy pool (including Scotland B, thank you Bravehearts), injuries to both Carter & Evans, Howlett & Mauger in the stands, a laissez-faire performance from Barnes, and let's not forget an incredible performance from Dusautoir contributed to another amazing French upset.

And, I might add, at that stage Conrad Smith was not trusted by the AB selectors, he was in the squad, but Muliaina got the centre berth...

Swiwi

Swiwi wrote: »

Bit of calm, people. No doubt this comment has been taken out of context, because it makes good press, and gets people on blogs firing off comments. There were a multitude of reasons for the '07 loss, of which refereeing played a part. It suits most people that the ABs lost, and hence objectivity is thrown out the window. From a NZ point of view, France were an average side that year (as witnessed by their semi-final loss), and the game should not have been close. But the combination of rest & rotation, an easy pool (including Scotland B, thank you Bravehearts), injuries to both Carter & Evans, Howlett & Mauger in the stands, a laissez-faire performance from Barnes, and let's not forget an incredible performance from Dusautoir contributed to another amazing French upset.

And, I might add, at that stage Conrad Smith was not trusted by the AB selectors, he was in the squad, but Muliaina got the centre berth...

Oh, and the small matter of remembering you get 3 points for a drop-goal...who would have taken it though? Carter - injured. Evans - injured. Mauger - in the stands. McAlister? - possibly.

Swiwi

Quint2010 wrote: »

Particularly as The AB's had so much possession and territory. Barnes is a poor ref anyway in my opinion. He made a huge error in Cermont this year that possibly cost them the game.

IMO, he seems to freeze in big-match occasions. Almost as if he's scared to put whistle to mouth. I'm pretty sure he's dropped out of the top-class panel at present.

I guess the same could be said of Joubert in '11, although I can't recall any 100% cast-iron penalties that he ignored in the final, most were subjective/borderline calls that could have gone either way. Most people forget NZ dominated the first 40 minutes of the final, and if Weepu had had his kicking boots on the lead would have been more comfortable at half-time.

bilston

Quint2010 wrote: »

maddragon wrote: »

Everyone expected New Zealand to steamroll this match if you remember. Would not make sense to try and influence a match where one team seemed to be so superior IMO.

True but apparently the French only gave away two penalties in the whole game??? None in the final 50 minutes??

Didn't Ireland famously only concede one penalty against France in 2009 and that wasn't until the 70th minute or so? It can happen

Ciaran-Irl

Swiwi wrote: »

Quint2010 wrote: »

Particularly as The AB's had so much possession and territory. Barnes is a poor ref anyway in my opinion. He made a huge error in Cermont this year that possibly cost them the game.

IMO, he seems to freeze in big-match occasions. Almost as if he's scared to put whistle to mouth. I'm pretty sure he's dropped out of the top-class panel at present.

I guess the same could be said of Joubert in '11, although I can't recall any 100% cast-iron penalties that he ignored in the final, most were subjective/borderline calls that could have gone either way. Most people forget NZ dominated the first 40 minutes of the final, and if Weepu had had his kicking boots on the lead would have been more comfortable at half-time.

There were a few. The most blatant was Kaino in a ruck around 5 minutes before the end. He makes3 clear iinfringements, including handling on the ground directly after Joubert tells him not to.

Quint2010

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

There were a few. The most blatant was Kaino in a ruck around 5 minutes before the end. He makes3 clear iinfringements, including handling on the ground directly after Joubert tells him not to.

Would not be surprised if Henry had a quiet word with the IRB before the 2011 final to remind them of the goings-on at the 2007 QF...

iroced

Ahah... You need to have absolutely no dignity to dare talking about a match fixing in '07 after the joke of a final RWC 2011 was :eek:.

Michel Audiard 1974' movie (*) could not fit better poor mister Graham Henry. A very little little man in the end.


Not a good publicity for rugby anyway. Not a good image of its most iconic country. I said after the last WC final that it was a catastrophy for rugby. Well I couldn't imagine the downfall would be so fast. Next step will be hitting a ref' :rolleyes: ... and IRB will be able to celebrate its achievement of reaching the same level as soccer :rolleyes:. Bravo. Hats down. Full stop...


---

(*) Am I allowed to cite its title => 'How to Do Well When You are a Jerk and a Crybaby' .

A-Train

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Swiwi wrote: »

Quint2010 wrote: »

Particularly as The AB's had so much possession and territory. Barnes is a poor ref anyway in my opinion. He made a huge error in Cermont this year that possibly cost them the game.

IMO, he seems to freeze in big-match occasions. Almost as if he's scared to put whistle to mouth. I'm pretty sure he's dropped out of the top-class panel at present.

I guess the same could be said of Joubert in '11, although I can't recall any 100% cast-iron penalties that he ignored in the final, most were subjective/borderline calls that could have gone either way. Most people forget NZ dominated the first 40 minutes of the final, and if Weepu had had his kicking boots on the lead would have been more comfortable at half-time.

There were a few. The most blatant was Kaino in a ruck around 5 minutes before the end. He makes3 clear iinfringements, including handling on the ground directly after Joubert tells him not to.

That's the very one that always jumps out at me from that final! Clear illegal play but Joubert did nothing, it was very annoying to watch!

desertcircus

I'd say Barnes is consulting a specialist in libel law this morning.

Swiwi

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

There were a few. The most blatant was Kaino in a ruck around 5 minutes before the end. He makes3 clear iinfringements, including handling on the ground directly after Joubert tells him not to.

Was probably too nervous to notice... I watched the game in Ballsbridge, it was basically a pub full of eerily quiet Kiwis, and one completely drunk & loud Englishman who was cheering for the French...

efb

The ironing is so delicious its unfunny!

Swiwi

efb wrote: »

The ironing is so delicious its unfunny!

Back to your housework mate..(or your dictionary)...

Swiwi

efb wrote: »

The ironing is so delicious its unfunny!

No need to get shirty.

efb

I am referring to Mr Henry here, not any posters! Anyone see me febreeze?

CatFromHue

The second link has quoted Henry saying:

"They (the NZRU) told me to pull my head in and relax and get on with it, and quite frankly that advice was the correct advice, because if I'd actually kept going down that path I would never have coached the All Blacks again."

So now I'm not sure what the story is, also because in the link from Stuff.co.nz its says:

"Henry demanded the All Blacks play for position and kick the ball deep into French territory late in the nail-biting final.

But McCaw, fearing a match-winning French counter-attack, chose to defend the game in the middle of the park, backing his players not to give away penalties."

So it seems like the article is admitting that it is possible to play and not give away penalties if you are smart about it.

Ciaran-Irl

Swiwi wrote: »

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

There were a few. The most blatant was Kaino in a ruck around 5 minutes before the end. He makes3 clear iinfringements, including handling on the ground directly after Joubert tells him not to.

Was probably too nervous to notice... I watched the game in Ballsbridge, it was basically a pub full of eerily quiet Kiwis, and one completely drunk & loud Englishman who was cheering for the French...

I'd be the same, no doubt. Not that I'll ever experience it in my lifetime! I was cheering the Kiwis too in fairness. The French were awful for too much of the tournament to deserve to win it, but that last few minutes were harsh on the French in decisions.

Edit: Watch the video below. There were a few, but the one from about 1.05 is the one I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7C6bTHyC0U

Klunk_NZ

Henry is entitled to an opinion.

Hagz

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Henry is entitled to an opinion.

What does that mean? Henry is of course entitled to an opinion, and people here are entitled to their opinion on his opinion. The world would be a very boring place if we just accepted everyone's opinion.

PhatPiggins

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Henry is entitled to an opinion.

True and its nice that he actually expressed it. Still doesn't feel like something he'd say, he's far too conservative.

Klunk_NZ

Hagz wrote: »

What does that mean? Henry is of course entitled to an opinion, and people here are entitled to their opinion on his opinion. The world would be a very boring place if we just accepted everyone's opinion.

Well,
I am not informed aswell as Sir Graeme is on the circumstances of the game officiating, so my opinion (and everyone elses here) would be somewhat uneducated to oppose it. All I know is no good can come from dredging up this type of stuff.

Would be interesting what some credible people in the reffing community thought of this. Paddy O Brian or someone. Match fixing is found in cricket, League and soccer all the time so Rugby would certainly not be immune.

Wayne Barnes doesn't have repute worth trying to damage further, he is at best highly incompetent, at worst a match fixer. There may be elements of both.


As long as Henry admits elements of fault in 07 loss rather than trying to shuffle it all to Barnes I will respect his opinion on the matter.


He is being very choosing in his wording to avoid a lawsuit,...

Klunk_NZ

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Would be interesting what some credible people in the reffing community thought of this. Paddy O Brian or someone. Match fixing is found in cricket, League and soccer all the time so Rugby would certainly not be immune.

...
and is almost always done for financial benefit of players, and rarely if ever anything to do with officiating. (Well, proven anyway).

It's not "match fixing" if it's a case of a referee making 2/3 50/50 calls too many for one side, it's a case of bias (intentional or unintentional).

If Henry is suggesting that the bias was intentionally formed, for any of the officiating panel's benefit, yet chose to wait 5 years to voice this, then he's committing a pretty serious "crime" in my estimation. Why would he choose to allow nothing be said about this 'supposed dirty' referee in Barnes? Allow Barnes to be allowed continue performing as a top level referee for 5 years without turning any stones over?

It's almost certainly a case of Barnes making mistakes, that get blown out of proportion, that culminate in eggy faces.

If the claims that Henry makes are written as they might be suggested to be, he could be facing problems with Barnes and the IRB as they will pretty much be forced to take legal action.

Grapes continuously being soured, and books, promoted to be sold, are the two most poignant parts of the thread imo. As we've all shown here many times after a Munster v Leinster, or an Ireland v Wales game, each and every decision a referee makes can be dissected down to an insanely detailed level that becomes pretty meaningless.

The rules and laws of the games are open to interpretation, and we can chose to ignore the referees interpretation and believe our own train of thought stubbornly, but the "play the whistle" aspect of rugby makes that a beyond fruitless experiment.

CatFromHue

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Wayne Barnes doesn't have repute worth trying to damage further, he is at best highly incompetent, at worst a match fixer. There may be elements of both.

Henry hasn't right out and say it but can't possibly hint any stronger that he thought Barnes was a corrupt. He has said that the NZRU told him to cop on but hasn't said that he was wrong about Barnes.

If you call a ref a match fixer you have to more evidence than one missed call and only two penalties awarded to you.

daveharnett

Quint2010 wrote: »

Asked NZRU to push IRB for inquiry.

Disregarding the fact that at this level the officials' performances are reviewed and assessed after every game as a matter of course. A fact Henry would have been well aware of.

I haven't reviewed the match or had access to full stats, so this is all rather hypothetical:
"They [NZ] had an overwhelming 73 per cent territorial advantage, winning 166 rucks to France's 42". That ruck figure is extraordinary, and suggests to me that one team is being cynical at the ruck, and one isn't.

In my opinion refs should actively avoid keeping track of the penalty count and focus (with a few exceptions) on judging each incident in isolation. In the (unusual) situation where one team is being consistently cynical and their opponents keep their discipline, the penalty count should be one-sided.

If it isn't, then you have to suspect the ref of 'balancing' the penalty count. This to me is the worst possible outcome - sacrificing actual impartiality in favour of the appearance of impartiality. It's also one of the reasons why the IRB punishes coaches who would use their soapbox to bully officials. A practice which would be entirely alien to Sir Graeme, of course

molloyjh

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

There were a few. The most blatant was Kaino in a ruck around 5 minutes before the end. He makes3 clear iinfringements, including handling on the ground directly after Joubert tells him not to.

I think there were 4 infringements there. Kaino goes in off his feet, then plays the ball on the ground (after being told hands off), knocks the ball on and then when the ball is out of the ruck it is gathered by Read (IIRC) who was off-side.

This is obviously just a marketting ploy. And a good one at that from the looks of it.