Appealing a dismissal

psalbmb

So two weeks ago, i was dismissed from my employment for 'serious gross misconduct'. without getting into to much detail, It was a hotel in which i work , and i was staying there as a paying Guest. an incident happened in the bar that night, where its "alleged that i went behind the bar to pour myself a pint". however in light of this information, i was given the opportunity to appeal this decision. However in order to appeal, i requested the following documentationcopy of minutes taken at disciplinary hearing / copy of witness statements / copy of procedures used / copy of CCTV footage / all of which related to my dismissal hearing when i went to collect the documents all of which were used against me in their complaint, it seems they in fact do NOT have any CCTV footage of the night in question, nor do they have any statements from the staff on that night, only the night manager's who's statement was conflicting as he had 3 very different stories surrounding that night. · I must also ask the question why was only one witness statement taken? In the essence of fair procedure, surely to get witness statements from the actual bar staff on that night would be prudent. I note that two members of staff were working in the bar that night, yet it appears no witness statements were taken from them? This hardly constitutes fair procedure. Also to note i was a Guest, and in all written documentations from the employer, they referred to me as a guest ? Now you can't obviously discipline a Guest( If you can, well we've never done it), but what i am asking is whether they are treating this incident as i was a guest, or as an employee. our company policy does not state anything about behaviour whilst on the premises etc, so i am a bit confused, Many Thanks

Disstressed Student

BornToKill

If I correctly understood your previous posts on the matter though, you admit to committing the 'offence'. Why then would there be a need for witness statements and CCTV footage?

Predalien

First of all it is irrelevant that you were staying there as a guest, employers are entitled to expect you to behave in a certain way in your place of work even if you weren't working at the time, plenty of disciplinary procedures relate to incidents outside of the normal workplace/workhours especially where it could impact the business involved.

Secondly, citizens information is a good starting point to find out if you are a person entitled to take a claim for unfair dismissal, many successful claims relate not to whether or not an incident took place but rather as to whether fair procedures were followed in determining that someone should be dismissed, your employer should have a guide/standard for disciplinary procedures so have a look at that to see if they followed such guidelines in your own case.

You can make a claim through the Rights Commisioner or the EAT. If you're serious about it it might be best to go and talk to a solicitor, perhaps ask around locally to see if anyone knows one with good experience of employment law.

Procrastastudy

When you were on about this before you were advised to speak to a solicitor. The situation you now find yourself in is exactly why you should have done that and why, if you feel you have a case, you should do it now. You have already significantly weakened your position however.

That said from the point of view of dealing with similar situations in retail over the last ten years - had you been one of my guys I'd have fired you as well. My personal, non-legal, advise is you were an idiot and got fired. It happens - move on.

psalbmb

BornToKill wrote: »

If I correctly understood your previous posts on the matter though, you admit to committing the 'offence'. Why then would there be a need for witness statements and CCTV footage?

No i didnt admit to it, as i was under the influence of drink, i said its all a bit blurried. the need for witness statements and CCTV footage would be because thats what was used against me in their complaint!. they stated several times in the meeting about cctv and witness statement(S) and using the code of practice, i should have been provided with these documentation prior to my meeting. Now in saying that, obviously, this case is alot more detailed and for legal reasons now, i can't get into it, but trust me, if you'd see the rest of it, Im sure you'd all agree i have a good case.

and btw lawstudent ... i Have a solicitor onto it as we speak, but i just wanted to clarify a few things for myself thanks

seb65

psalbmb wrote: »

No i didnt admit to it, as i was under the influence of drink, i said its all a bit blurried. the need for witness statements and CCTV footage would be because thats what was used against me in their complaint!. they stated several times in the meeting about cctv and witness statement(S) and using the code of practice, i should have been provided with these documentation prior to my meeting. Now in saying that, obviously, this case is alot more detailed and for legal reasons now, i can't get into it, but trust me, if you'd see the rest of it, Im sure you'd all agree i have a good case.

and btw lawstudent ... i Have a solicitor onto it as we speak, but i just wanted to clarify a few things for myself thanks

I believe the degree of the fair procedures you are entitled to is judged on a case by case basis, One of the factors included is the severity of the consequences.

Flanagan v UCD gives an outline of the fair procedures that should be followed when the consequences are severe.

There's no way of even suggesting on here what someone's rights could be without knowing all of the details. Right to fair procedures is a grey enough area without having all the facts of the case.

I would think that, loosely, if evidence against someone exists and this evidence factored into their decision, he has the right to be furnished with it - prior to the disciplinary hearing. This falls under the right to prior notice under the audi alteram partem principle.

BornToKill

psalbmb wrote: »

No i didnt admit to it, as i was under the influence of drink, i said its all a bit blurried.

Though that isn't exactly what you said before on the matter:

psalbmb wrote: »

... later that night yes i know stupidly, i went in behind the bar, drunk and tried to pour myself a pint, which was taken off me, and i went to bed. now they are saying this is Gross Mis-conduct and that its a sack-able offence. i feel that they are only doing this now as i complained about my Manager. any suggestions? very detailed and complicated story i know!

Procrastastudy

Its sounds like, in my lay opinion, from experience though this at the grunt end; you'll have a case for fair procedures.

I hope you don;t plan on working in this type of area again though as I can assure you 'it'll get around'. Not least because you are posting here. Generally I would applaud that as 90% of cases are people standing up for their rights when they've done very little, or nothing, wrong.

You appear to be one of the 10%.

EDIT sorry when I say case, I mean you'll get a few quid in nuisance change.

seb65

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Not least because you are posting here. Generally I would applaud that as 90% of cases are people standing up for their rights when they've done very little, or nothing, wrong.

You appear to be one of the 10%.

EDIT sorry when I say case, I mean you'll get a few quid in nuisance change.

bit dramatic there dude. I doubt very much the country will be buzzing, spreading the gossip of the hotel worker who took a pint from behind the bar. Besides, look at his other posts, this could be a way of getting rid of someone who actually went to HR to complain about discrimination. I assume you're planning on finding only the white horse cases when you practice. Where you ride in and save the day for the lily white pure clients exclusively.....probably won't get much business.

Fair procedures exist for a reason - employers should take care to follow them.

Procrastastudy

seb65 wrote: »

bit dramatic there dude. I doubt very much the country will be buzzing, spreading the gossip of the hotel worker who took a pint from behind the bar. Besides, look at his other posts, this could be a way of getting rid of someone who actually went to HR to complain about discrimination. I assume you're planning on finding only the white horse cases when you practice. Where you ride in and save the day for the lily white pure clients exclusively.....probably won't get much business.

Fair procedures exist for a reason - employers should take care to follow them.

Seb - you know more about the law than I probably ever will. Trust that I know a bit more than you do about how some of these industries work.

I have absolutely no doubt if he was Mr. perfect employee he'd have got away with it. Some of the crap I used to pull would have got most other people fired from the same position.

As to 'white horses' my firm belief that even the most vile kiddy fiddling rapist deserves a defense does not diminish the disdain I feel for that person. My disdain for people wasting the time and money of a private business and probably dragging their mates in to investigations over acting like a fool only rates as mild. Its still there though.

Incidentally I think he should see a solicitor, I said so in my very first post, preferably hire a couple of barristers too.

EDIT The issue would be over 'going legal' rather than the pint.