Bullying - when should it become a reason to leave?

Hannaho

Hi!

I've posted just previously re my decision to go back to public sector job vs. shaky voluntary sector. I also mentioned that one factor in my decision is that I am being bullied in my voluntary sector job since after the first week I started there.

I just wondered when does bullying become a reason to leave? Since I started, my immediate boss is constantly criticising and nitpicking my work (but higher ups have no problem with my work). She also has made up stories that are false - e.g. I left a message(s) for you and you never got back to me (these message never came as there is a call and text log at work), whatever I seem to do is wrong, if I talk to a visitor to our centre, it is wrong, if I don't talk to them, I am rude. She constantly criticises all my decisions (though I am equally experienced and qualified as she is), she has complained about me to management, I get shouted at, she also tried to have me moved, and less experienced staff put in my stead. I have documented all the incidents.

I made a complaint to management, but they were really no help, and actually implied that if we didn't get on, I could lose my job.

There are no witnesses to the bullying as there are only two of us in the office. They did ask me if I had recorded any incidents of the bullying using a recording device, and said if I did so, they would see this as a disciplinary offence - I don't know where they got this idea - don't know if this person has bullied before, and someone did this.

Would appreciate any comments re. the bullying.

Denerick

Record her bullying with an electronic device and bring the baastards to a tribunal.

Postgrad10

It really sounds like mangement have been through this before , very quick to ask if you have recorded it. It's horrible to work in an environment like that . Any chance you could move away from her within the company since she was eager for you to move ? If it's not different, then leave.

Hannaho

Hi! Postgrad10, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I can't move away from her. I was contracted to a particular site, and although they moved me for a couple of weeks because of the bullying, they let me know that my work contract was for the other site, and I would have to move back there, to where the bully is, within a few weeks - I am now back after a few weeks away, and the bullying is still going on. I feel if I complain to management again, I will seem like a whiner/complainer. I do have another job lined up, but it is 80km away, but if I have to, I suppose I will take it - it is permanent and pensionable.

Postgrad10

I'm sure that others on here can better advise but surely if you complain again , they have to do something ? Contact citizens information for advice on your employment rights . Keep noting everything down like you're doing . Other than the bullying do you love this job? Have you kept an outlook for similar positions in other voluntary organisations? From reading your other thread , it seems that this is the job you really want to be in. Don't go back to the other career just because it's permanent . You have to work at what you love .

Mr. Loverman

Have you tried talking to her about it?

Hannaho

Hi! Postgrad and Loerman, thanks for your replies.

Loverman, yes I have tried talking to her about it - she just denies it and starts screaming and shouting at me. If I itry to be assertive and ask her to stop shouting at me, so that I can say what I need to say, she then accuses me of talking over her, and immediately rings management and complains about me. It's a very difficult situation! Like Postgrad said, it is my dream job, though it now seems very insecure in terms of funding, and now it seems that management will support the way this lady behaves no matter what, and that's something I can't really understand.

Thanks again.

Qualitymark

The most important thing to do is to record (by writing down) all incidents of bullying. Do this, unemotionally and accurately - no exaggeration, very plainly written - for a couple of weeks, then go to a solicitor who specialises in bullying (pm me and I'll give you a name, if you want).

If you make a legal complaint, the management almost always changes its tune, knowing that they could face a compensation claim; they normally make the bully back right off.

(This isn't legal advice; I'm not a lawyer.)

Hannaho

Hi! QualityMark, thanks for your reply and advice. Unfortunately, I did get an employment law solicitor, but she told me that as I am only there 3 months, I have no rights. I would need to be there a year before I could apply for constructive. She said I could apply to the Rights Commissioner, but the company would have to consent to this. I know I can contact the HSA re possible lack of fair procedures. Basically, the employment law solicitor said they can treat you whatever way they like until you are a year there, and that they can even dismiss you without notice, and there are no rights to recourse - it seems to be a terrible situation for any employees to have to endure bullying for a year before they can do anything about it!

Thanks again.

Mr. Loverman

She sounds like a psycho.

I would consider complaining again, saying the bullying is making you sick. I would do this by e-mail. Assuming things don't improve, I would continue complaining over the period of a few weeks. I would keep a log of all the bullying, and include it in each e-mail I send. If the problem still isn't sorted, I would then go off sick with a doctors note due to stress. I would then contact a solicitor.

The company sound like morons who will only respond if you go nuclear.

Qualitymark

In a situation like this it's also important, however, to keep your own quietude and calm, and not to let a bad experience sour you. If you can work this out amicably and not have to change jobs it will be better for you; if you do have to change jobs, you want to do it in a moderate way.

StillWaters

As you are there such a short time, you have very few rights. I would look seriously at the permanent job. Can you move nearer the new job?

doolox

As I have advised people before the bullying action will not go away until the bullyer is confronted and made to pay for her actions. You need to press home reporting and making this as public as possible. The senior management are seriously at fault for not stamping out this kind of behaviour. No one, adult or child or anyone should not be shouted at in this way.

Unfortunately in Ireland it seems you have no rights until you are 2 yrs in a permanent job. It looks as if the public, permanent job is the safer bet if you are prone to attract bullying , aggressive people. It is my belief that some people are more likely to be bullied than others so that the more likely "victims" are better off in the heavily unionised and therefore heavily protected public sector or multinational or large-scale Irish enterprise. At least these types of firms will have established procedures to guard against bullying and will take some action. It has been my experience that small Irish enterprises do not give this aspect of their business any high priority, the evil of high unemployment giving them a high choice of willing replacements and they suffer no consequences, why should they bother??

It is vitally important that you do not retaliate by shouting back or that any confrontation should not take place in a private place. It is in your interest that all confrontations take place in a public place and you may have to insist in public meetings with the boss so as to have witnesses to her behaviour. While this is possible in large enterprises it is more difficult in small places.

My last big place of work always allowed the option of having a work colleague or HR rep with you so as to force a discipline of quiet discussion and debate at meetings rather than letting things get heated. Some less assertive people preferred this rather than facing the boss alone.

In cases of suspected bullying in my life I have adopted the group meeting approach and also document everything in writing..........

Hannaho

Hi! All, thanks a mil for so much advice. I really hate the thought of going back to the permanent job, but it's looking like an inevitability now. I can't move closer as the children love it where we are now, and I don't want to move them back again - it would be very disruptive.

I heard that this lady had bullied before; that the last person she bullied recorded her verbal bullying, and they got dismissed and she got kept on despite the proof of bullying - I guess that's why the asked me about recording. Does anyone think this is strange - having recorded proof of bullying, and then being dismissed for doing the recording. In this last situation too, there were only the two of them in the office.

Hannaho

Hi! All, thanks so much for comments and advice.

I don't want to take the permanent job as it's not at all what I want to do, and I won't be able to move any closer as the children are so happy where we live now. Also childcare would be much more expensive nearer the Big Smoke. However, I think leaving is probably inevitable at this stage.

Apparently, the last lady that was bullied by my boss taperecorded the verbal bullying and was dismissed because of this. My boss, the bully was kept on! It doesn't bode well. I hadn't realised that people could be dismissed for tape recording bullying to demonstrate proof of it.

dan dan

This bully did the dirt before and got the support of the bosses. It is obvious she will try this power over and over again.S he is insecure and trying to keep her place in the pecking order.

She has the support as the bosses are the final judges. Well please understand if the legal situation does not help you then publicity will. Exposure to the gaze of their peers in this matter will shake them . A leaked of errand text with info. can be a terrible threat. If you have to go then use your file to update all the clients and similar businesses.

Hannaho

Hi! Dan Dan,

Thanks. That's exactly what I feel like doing. However, I just can't understand how management can let her away with stuff like this.

dan dan

Sometimes people like her have some leverage over someone. Be it a blood relative or a relationship or they allowed it once because they needed her and now are stuck with the situation and do not have the moral fibre to man up anddo what is necessary. Do not let them build up a catalogue of your errors and shortcomings real or fabricated.

Millicent

I think when they mention "recording" what they mean is are you documenting the bullying. This is very important, especially if it comes to an unfair/constructive dismissal case, and something I neglected to do when I was being bullied so ended up in a he said/she said situation.

What you should do is get a diary and mark every incident down with a time, date and possible witnesses with details of the bullying. After you have built up enough of a dossier, bring it to her immediate superior or HR. If the company fails to act and you feel forced out of the job, you may have a case for constructive dismissal or unfair dismissal if they sack you over it. The Citizens' Information is actually pretty good for this stuff. My local branch has a regular labour lawyer who is open after office hours on certain days of the month. Ring your branch and see can you make an appointment to talk to theirs or the nearest one.

Good luck.

ETA to add Citizens' Information links:

Constructive dismissal

Unfair dismissal

and

Bullying in the Workplace

factnee

OP, You obviously went to a clueless solicitor. And also please do not rely on some of the posters on this forum who clearly know very little about employment law but still insist on posting.

The facts of the matter are that you can indeed take a case against the company for bullying even though you are only there a few months. The case can be referred under the Health, Safety and Welfare At Work Act. It is heard in the first instance by a Rights Commissioner. Then either side can appeal it to the Labour Court.

You don't have to have left the employment of the company before you refer the case so I would do it straightaway. If you are in Dublin the case will be heard by a Rights Commissioner in about 8 weeks. This will make them set up and take note.

PM me if you want further details.

Hannaho

Hi! Factnee, thanks a mil for your post. I was aware that I could apply to the Rights Commissioner, but my solicitor told me that I had to get the permission of the company first, and that they usually don't consent to an application to the Rights Commissioners - is this not the case?

factnee

Hannahho, As I said before your solicitor is utterly clueless. You do not have to get permission from the company to go to the Rights Commissioner under the Health Safety and Welfare at Work Act.

They must consent to attending a Rights Commissioner hearing under the Unfair Dismissals Acts but cannot object to a Rights Commissioner hearing under the Health Safety and Welfare at Work Act.

Hannaho

Hi! Factnee,

Thanks for the info re. Rights Commissioner. I contacted the HSA and told them about the lack of anit-bullying policy in the organisation, and what had happened to me. They said they would write to them and ask them for a copy of their anti-bullying policy/procedures.

I also made a complaint to the Rights Commissioner under the Health and Safety at Work Act. My G.P. wrote me off sick with work related stress on Thursday, as the whole thing has me completely worn down, so I informed them via email that I had made this complaint to the Rights Commissioner as I was not happy with the way my complaint had been treated.I got an angry response from them which also informed me that I would not be paid any sick pay. So where to from here is anyone's guess.

Thanks again.

factnee

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! Factnee,

Thanks for the info re. Rights Commissioner. I contacted the HSA and told them about the lack of anit-bullying policy in the organisation, and what had happened to me. They said they would write to them and ask them for a copy of their anti-bullying policy/procedures.

I also made a complaint to the Rights Commissioner under the Health and Safety at Work Act. My G.P. wrote me off sick with work related stress on Thursday, as the whole thing has me completely worn down, so I informed them via email that I had made this complaint to the Rights Commissioner as I was not happy with the way my complaint had been treated.I got an angry response from them which also informed me that I would not be paid any sick pay. So where to from here is anyone's guess.

Thanks again.

Hi Hannaho,

Have you been paid while off sick in the past? Also can you check if your contract of employment states that you are entitled to sick pay?

Avatarr

Hi Hannaho,

I was in you position a couple of years ago, I know what it feels like.

I ended up moving departments. Is there anybody else having trouble with this lady (I use that word advisedly). You need some alloys to back up your story and show a pattern of behaviour on her side.

It's a horrible situation, document everything, it's a pain I know but you need to protect yourself. Try corresponding via email, this will have 2 impacts, one, less face time with the nut job and secondly you will have records of her rants (if she is foolish enough to put in it writing).

Have you told her point blank her behaviour is inappropriate? Not an easy thing to do I know.

Keep the chin up and don't let the b****h get you down.

dan dan

If you go back to work. Thread on eggshells. Any slip up on your part,real or contrived.will be ammunition for them.A simple slip could be sufficient grounds for dismissal,on grounds of incompitance. Record everything. Even your instructions as they can lead you down a blind alley. No use saying ,but you told me to do it.

Allow the powers to do their work,dont enter into spontanious discussion. Because you certainly will be invited,to the mine field,to play hopscotch.

Hannaho

Hi! Factnee, Avatar and Dan Dan, thanks for your replies.

Factnee, I'm only with the organisation 2 months and have never been off sick before. Sick pay is apparently at their discretion.

I did make a complaint to the Rights Commissioner though, and informed them of this. I also rang the Health and Safety Authority, and they were going to send them a letter requesting their anti-bullying policy. I have heard nothing from the organisation since last Friday when I informed them I had made a complaint to the Rights Commissioner - so thanks, Factnee for that advice - wonder why the solicitor didn't explain that I could take a case to the Rights Commissioner under Health and Safety at Work Act, without the employer's consent.

Avatar, unfortunately, I can't move to a new department, as my contract states that I am assigned to this particular site - there are only two of us at this site - the boss who bullied me and me.

Dan Dan, I'm not going to go back and work there -I know they would make my life hell, and be checking up on me constantly. I would have no choice but to work directly with the bully, as my contract is specifically with that site, and it was made know to me that I could only be moved temporarily. Unfortunately, the only other job open to me is to return to the public sector with an 80km journey each way. I really hated working in the public sector before - though my job is permanent and pensionable - I hated the shift work, nights etc. and don't know how I will manage it - the money is good as I left at the top of scale - but I feel sick at the thought of it - which is the subject of my next post to help me make the decision in this regard.

Thanks again to all of you for you replies and very helpful advice.

dan dan

Good girl Hannaho. Correct decision. You are not being chicken but very in touch with yourself. You owe yourself as much comfort ,peace and calm mind in this short life . Nobody is allowed to mess up your peace. However bad the other job may be ,the bully one is a total NO No.
Very best of luck. your decision is made already.

factnee

I would wait until after the Rights Commissioner hearing before making any decision on whether or not to leave the employment given that you appear to like it so much. I have attended many Rights Commissioners hearings in the past where outcomes other than compensation have resulted. So it is quite possible during or indeed as a result of the hearing they may agree to move you to a different location etc. As I said in a previous post, you should get a hearing in the next 6 to 8 weeks so I think you should hold off resigning and taking another job until then. The reason your solicitor didn't inform you about going down this route is that he didn't know about it - the vast majority of solicitors I have encountered know ver little about employment law. Send me a private message if you want.

Hannaho

Hi! Dan Dan and Factnee, thanks for your replies.

Yes, Dan Dan, peace of mind is worth everything.

Factnee - I love the job, and dread going back to the public sector, but I couldn't work for the organisation now - I absolutely have no respect for them now at all. Also, the bully is paid through another voluntary organisation funded by the HSE, so while she is my immediate boss, and the organisation I am in was on the interview panel, she can't be disciplined etc without getting the other voluntary organisation involved, and I don't think they would do this because of publicity etc.

For me there are also funding issues with the organisation, and I don't think my contract is worth the paper it is written on. Recently, they have had no money to pay the statiionery bill, so we have hardly any stationery. I had no computer as they couldn't afford one, so I had to ask permission from my 'bully' boss to use hers when I needed to complete notes/work. They also asked me not to put in a large chunk of my mileage as they hadn't got the funds, and they are now talking about maybe shedding jobs next year - this was after offering me a three year contact in May. Also one of their outreach sites down the country is winding up, and the manager of the other says he can see the cliff fast approaching.

Another issue is, that I contacted the girl who was there before me and who also had a hard time there, and she said that she would never recommend any of her friends to work for this organisation.

Interestingly, this organisation is concerned with people's psychological well-being - that's their remit!

Thanks again for the replies, they were really informative and helpful