Site Chrono

darkslider

Having returned from a recent game with a higher number of 'bleeders' than usual and a nasty head shot, I began to wonder whether the site in question had been allowing (or perhaps turning a blind eye to) the use of 'hot' weapons or if a couple had slipped through the chrono net.
But this is probably not the case.....
Most sites seem to operate to the magic number of 328fps. Every site I've been to operates their chrono in FPS, which for a start is odd as everything else in this country is metric, but I digress...

If you read the 'What is one Joule' sticky in this section of the forum it explains the science part quite well, but the bottom line is that the 328fps limit assumes a maximum mass of .2g. It has long been known that using a .25g or .28g BB will decrease the FPS and this can be used by more unscrupulous people to get 'hot' weapons under the magic 328 limit. But these marginally heavier BB's are also used to increase accuracy in rifles and pistols and to gain more shot consistency.

The issue with this is that despite these weapons coming in under the 328 with .25/.28 ammo, they're still potentially breaking the law. If it takes approx .85 to .9 joules to move a .2g bb at a velocity of 328fps then obviously it will take more energy to move a .25 of .28g BB at the same velocity, thereby putting you on or over the 1 joule limit and making your unlicensed weapon illegal. Put simply, you wouldn't like to be shot with a .4g BB moving at 328fps.... would you?

As 1 joule is the amount of energy it take for a .2g BB to pierce the human eye - irrelevant of velocity, shouldn't ALL sites be doin their chrono in Joules and nothing else as a legal requirement? Not FPS or MPS thus eliminating the variables associated with different ammo. It's their responsibility to the particpants on their site to ensure that the games are played in a safe environment with legal arms.
Continuing to measure weapons in FPS, simply because it's easier to understand than joules will eventually result in someone getting proper hurt and the deployment of the nanny state and bleeding heart society, and that'll be the beginning of the end.

tudenham10

The law is based on 1 joule with the hop fully off and that's what all sites, retailers and players should be judged upon. The idea of just measuring the speed is antiquated and more akin to the coke can Chrono brigade!

I have to admit the Chrono cheats are as big of a bugbear as non hit callers in my opinion. The only way of dealing with the Chrono cheats is to chrono in the same way that Red Barn (and apologies to other sites who also do this) and use control mags when guns are being chrono'd. Some people don't like it but that's their problem as far as I'm concerned.

As regards breaking the skin, it can very well happen with a sub 1 joule gun. There are a number of reasons why including the weight off the bb, area of the body hit etc but it's a lot easier to accept if the site has a professional attitude to treating all the players equally.

T4RGET

darkslider wrote: »

Having returned from a recent game with a higher number of 'bleeders' than usual and a nasty head shot, I began to wonder whether the site in question had been allowing (or perhaps turning a blind eye to) the use of 'hot' weapons or if a couple had slipped through the chrono net.
But this is probably not the case.....
Most sites seem to operate to the magic number of 328fps. Every site I've been to operates their chrono in FPS, which for a start is odd as everything else in this country is metric, but I digress...

If you read the 'What is one Joule' sticky in this section of the forum it explains the science part quite well, but the bottom line is that the 328fps limit assumes a maximum mass of .2g. It has long been known that using a .25g or .28g BB will decrease the FPS and this can be used by more unscrupulous people to get 'hot' weapons under the magic 328 limit. But these marginally heavier BB's are also used to increase accuracy in rifles and pistols and to gain more shot consistency.

The issue with this is that despite these weapons coming in under the 328 with .25/.28 ammo, they're still potentially breaking the law. If it takes approx .85 to .9 joules to move a .2g bb at a velocity of 328fps then obviously it will take more energy to move a .25 of .28g BB at the same velocity, thereby putting you on or over the 1 joule limit and making your unlicensed weapon illegal. Put simply, you wouldn't like to be shot with a .4g BB moving at 328fps.... would you?

As 1 joule is the amount of energy it take for a .2g BB to pierce the human eye - irrelevant of velocity, shouldn't ALL sites be doin their chrono in Joules and nothing else as a legal requirement? Not FPS or MPS thus eliminating the variables associated with different ammo. It's their responsibility to the particpants on their site to ensure that the games are played in a safe environment with legal arms.
Continuing to measure weapons in FPS, simply because it's easier to understand than joules will eventually result in someone getting proper hurt and the deployment of the nanny state and bleeding heart society, and that'll be the beginning of the end.

most sites I play at measure the AEG's in Joules, but even still you still have t tell the marshal your BB weight. but I don't mean to be rude or maybe i missed something but was there a question in your post or was it a general thread?

Puding

best practice and what you will see with most large events is hop off and plays go to the chrono with an empty mag, you then use the sites bb in the chrono

reality is if someone want to cheat they will find a way, i've been everything with multiple aegs to ail in the barrel for chronoing everything and anything

darkslider

Not at all rude. My question is,(it's in the post) don't you think that ALL sites should chrono weapons in Joules as opposed to FPS or MPS as a legal requirement?

I like the Red Barn idea of using controlled mags for the chrono, it limits the variables and implements their controls on weapons that arrive from off site.

As for the bleeders, as I said in my original post, I arrived home with 'More than usual'. 6 down the outside of my left leg where I'd been sprayed on fully auto (in a single shot game, but that's for another post), from my hip down to my ankle. I expect a few when the softer fleshy bits get hit but not like this. Obviously it was all from the one weapon as there were none anywhere else.
I wear a half mesh mask and ballistics glasses, as well as a peaked cap and bandana but I was still very thankful that this volley had not hit me in the face, or worse yet hit one of the younger players. I'm sure it would have hurt.

I don't go out skirmishing afriad of getting hit, I don't mind too much if I bleed, but this type of thing would make me wonder about the mentality of some of the players: Are people deliberately trying to skirmish with Hot weapons? Too what end? Power does not necessarily equate to range esp on full auto, so are people just heading out to hurt others?

Puding

Not at all rude. My question is,(it's in the post) don't you think that ALL sites should chrono weapons in Joules as opposed to FPS or MPS as a legal requirement?

tbh it makes no difference if done correctly, the joule is the measure of energy that the law mentions so you could make an argument for that but as I say in my eyes as long as the chronoing is done correctly ( that is the important point ) how the results are displayed is secondary

the variable and problems are not removed by simply moving to displaying things in joules, moving over to it may start the process of educating players but you have a long process with that one

Are people deliberately trying to skirmish with Hot weapons? Too what end? Power does not necessarily equate to range esp on full auto, so are people just heading out to hurt others?

bit of both, yes we do have a few opeople who're out to cheat ( happens in every sport ) but the largest number or just people that do not understand the relationship between weight/speed/joule, that even goes for shops and siteowners

darkslider

Puding wrote: »

tbh it makes no difference if done correctly, the joule is the measure of energy that the law mentions so you could make an argument for that but as I say in my eyes as long as the chronoing is done correctly ( that is the important point ) how the results are displayed is secondary

the variable and problems are not removed by simply moving to displaying things in joules, moving over to it may start the process of educating players but you have a long process with that one



bit of both, yes we do have a few opeople who're out to cheat ( happens in every sport ) but the largest number or just people that do not understand the relationship between weight/speed/joule, that even goes for shops and siteowners

But that's just it. The unit of measurement is all important to make people understand the legal limits. Drink driving laws are measured through blood alchol content which is % by volume, not Pints Per Hour

Similarly an airsoft rifle (under the law) is measured in energy expelled or Joules, not at the velocity or FPS at which the projectile is traveling. To properly regulate anything, the rules must be clear. This FPS thing needs to be tossed in favor of measuring in the proper unit. And it's up to people like the IAA, site owners and individuals to encourage/enforce this.

That being said I completely agree with you that organisation is very important. Shouting to a bunch of people 'Has everyone been chronoed?' is no use. Some time ago I had been toying with the idea of linking a chronograph to an electro magnet - if the reading comes back within the limit the magnet releases and the gate opens or turnstyle turns. This could be done everytime you want to leave the safezone. Quick, easy and regulated of course as with anything, supervision is still required.

DeBurca

It would make no difference if the site measures in Joules

For a chrono to calculate the energy output it needs to have the weight of the BB entered into it so that it can output a reading in joules

So if an AEG is tested with 0.25g BB in the mag and the chrono is set for 0.2g BB then the energy output as calculated by the chrono will be incorrect



So you are back to square one as ALL chronographs simple measure the speed of the projectile passing through it and by using a bit of software can output the Energy reading in Joules or even Foot Pounds as some chrono can do

But if the incorrect info is inputted (I.E. weight of BB) then the answer will always be incorrect even if it is displayed in Joules

T4RGET

DeBurca wrote: »

It would make no difference if the site measures in Joules

For a chrono to calculate the energy output it needs to have the weight of the BB entered into it so that it can output a reading in joules

So if an AEG is tested with 0.25g BB in the mag and the chrono is set for 0.2g BB then the energy output as calculated by the chrono will be incorrect



So you are back to square one as ALL chronographs simple measure the speed of the projectile passing through it and by using a bit of software can output the Energy reading in Joules or even Foot Pounds as some chrono can do

But if the incorrect info is inputted (I.E. weight of BB) then the answer will always be incorrect even if it is displayed in Joules

which is a point i made too although the control mags as used by Red barn might be a start, I've never been there but they seem to have the right idea, tbh i think if you thought the person's AEG was hot, the marshals should have taken action (this is of course if you mentioned it:)) and do a chrono right there and then in the field, but again they can lie about the BB weight..

Inari

Cheaters will cheat, and that is that. What is the chrono but for another obstacle to work around? I have heard stories of lads disassembling M14's to fit stronger springs after chrono...for those that don't know, M14's are not exactly the easiest gun to do a quick spring change!

The best chrono procedure in my opinion is using a high quality chronograph (run off of mains power to prevent low battery interfering) in a controlled light environment (remember they work off of light), placed on a flat surface and tested with 0.20g BB's using controlled mags and/or BB's. It should be approx. 10 shots, and if it spikes it should be subjected to more rigorous testing.

Some sites are very lax with chrono, and some even more so with basic rules. All you can do is complain to site owner, and if nothing is done then vote with your feet.

That said, in Ireland there is a bit of a relaxed attitude to the 1 joule limit. Many skirmishers view it as end-goal, rather than ensuring that their guns never go over the limit. I find that odd

Gatling

It's been happening since day one for skirmishing in this country for some its a non issue for some for some reason ,I personally always wanted a standard chrono for sites ie the skan chrono used by the phoenix park for ballistic testing and and site only mags for testing only to be met with oh its takes the honor and trust away from the players ( total copout ) enforce the law and the rules first and formost ,
My nephew came back for a site recently with the worse bloody welts I've seen the type seen mainly on YouTube ,anybody found to be using hot guns on regular occasions should be reported to the relevant authoritys,

War Machine 539

The only problem with a site having testing mags is that they will have to start buying every type of mag for every type of gun. Most guns take M4 mags, but then there is M14, G36, AK and every other variety of gun you can think of. Not really feasible.

Standard BBs and a standard chrono should do fine. If you think someones gun is hot say it to a marshal. If the site does nothing about it take your business elsewhere!

MagicIRL

War Machine 539 wrote: »

The only problem with a site having testing mags is that they will have to start buying every type of mag for every type of gun. Most guns take M4 mags, but then there is M14, G36, AK and every other variety of gun you can think of. Not really feasible.

Standard BBs and a standard chrono should do fine. If you think someones gun is hot say it to a marshal. If the site does nothing about it take your business elsewhere!

To be fair though- ~100e would cover all magazines within reason. G36, M4, AK would easily be the most common. Any "special guests" should just be made use the sites BBs.

Puding

tbh no need what so ever for a site to buy mags, all plays need to do is walk up to the chrono with a empty mag

Inari

At the end of the day it is very easy to cheat the chrono, and the odds are stacked heavily towards the player. Sites need to take whatever steps that they can to reduce the amount of factors and variables at play.

All you can do is talk to the players on site, and promote honour and integrity. If players are cheating chrono, then they are cheating. We all know an airsoft gun firing over the limit is illegal, but that's not even the point - I don't buy into the "report them to the authorities" because to be frank, I have seen chronos be wrong. I would rather see the players talked to about what they're doing, why they're doing it and educated, as well as all of the usual warnings/removal of gun from play etc.

That said, I'm an idealist - I know that cheaters will cheat, and variables will remain in chrono procedure...all I can do is talk to the site owners (as I do), play with honour (as I aspire to each and every time), and try to educate people as to the futility of cheating chrono.

PS: I mentioned seeing chrono's being wrong, and it is true...but I do also subscribe to the ethos that as far as a site is concerned, their chrono cannot be wrong (i.e. like a referee in soccer; they're not wrong while on the pitch...or you'll find yourself in the bad book )

Gatling

Inari wrote: »

All you can do is talk to the players on site, and promote honour and integrity. If players are cheating chrono, then they are cheating. We all know an airsoft gun firing over the limit is illegal, but that's not even the point - I don't buy into the "report them to the authorities" because to be frank, I have seen chronos be wrong. I would rather see the players talked to about what they're doing, why they're doing it and educated, as well as all of the usual warnings/removal of gun from play etc.

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I'm talking about players who are knowingly and a dead set useing aegs inexcess of of 1.5 to 2 j and no amount of talks or education will change there views or attitude ,
As for wrong readings on a chrono I've personally seen one of my tm read super hot one day 10 mins later same chrono shows fps down 100 fps down from the average of 275 .
Another chrono was showing a paintball marker shooting sub 1 j when it should've have been reading 10+ so yeah chronos can be wildly irratic at times hence why id prefer a professionally calibrated chrono ad site standard

thermo

Gatling wrote: »

I'm talking about players who are knowingly and a dead set useing aegs inexcess of of 1.5 to 2 j and no amount of talks or education will change there views or attitude ,
As for wrong readings on a chrono I've personally seen one of my tm read super hot one day 10 mins later same chrono shows fps down 100 fps down from the average of 275 .
Another chrono was showing a paintball marker shooting sub 1 j when it should've have been reading 10+ so yeah chronos can be wildly irratic at times hence why id prefer a professionally calibrated chrono ad site standard

same as mate, and they were telling me how they cheat the chrono, and tbh if they spent as much effort in "up skilling" they would be far better off.

darkslider

Aside from the honour and trust of players, which is BS; life doesn't work like that - if you've not done anything to put your gun over the limit why would you wish to avoid testing, the issue people seem to miss is that those that are carrying 'hot' guns on a site are shooting at others with an unlicensed weapon - if you shoot someone with this gun and seriously hurt them, you're looking at aggravated assault with a weapon; potentially a 5 year sentence and in addition the site will be liable as they've allowed an illegal, unlicensed weapon to be used in an area under their control - it makes no difference what disclaimer you've signed or whether you're a club member as these contracts only operate under the assumption that the equipment used is legal and checking this is the responsibility of the site/club.

Granted the above is a worst case scenario but a nonchalaunt attitude will allow people to get away with this only for so long and it won't be the idoit with the hot gun that suffers in the long run, it will be the other players on the site and the sport in general. Sites can affiliate themselves with the IAA to show a certain standard of quality and safety but perhaps there needs to be a proper governing body to ensure regulation and compliance for sites that may be a bit more lax when it comes to observing the legalities of the sport. It's not an ideal solution and I'd be the first to admit that it's a bit of a 'babysitting' solution, but I think it may be necessary to preserve the sport as well as the safety of its participants.

Inari

At the end of the day you can introduce as stringent measures as you want, but that does not remove the problem. This is what legislating does - it sounds like you're doing something positive against a prevalent problem...but you're not. You're merely opting into a farcical facade that shrouds the real issues at hand - if people want to cheat the system, they will. Even if they're 'caught' that doesn't change the fact that they were cheating, does it?

This is why I don't buy into the extremes of hot guns etc, as vamping it up as a serious offence doesn't faze these people, as to them the justification is firmly in their head of "Ah sure it's only a toy" and although we know that's not the case, it doesn't change the fact that society views them as a toy due to their non-lethal nature.

You really want to stamp out cheating the system and hot guns being used, then you need to tackle to social issues at play; you look at the reasons why they're doing it, and go straight to the source. It needs to be in-house self policed, so that anyone cheating feels ostricised by the community of players, not the cartel of sites etc - it needs to be from the ground up, and we (the players) are the foundation of it all.

The tricky part is that negative reinforcement doesn't work. Telling people they're bad and punishing them doesn't work half as well as telling the person beside the cheater how they exemplify the game, and rewarding them. It sparks jealousy, and as long as it is consistently applied, it tends to pull people in line and rise to the challenge, instead of cheating. Cheating cannot earn the reward, and that's why you cheat...to win.

Personally the way I look at it is that there are an awful lot of misinformed people out there. They don't know what they're doing, and are under the impression that more power is better, and that is difficult to combat. I try to educate people as to the futility of upgrading power beyond 1 joule, when I can tune a gun sub 1 joule to outperform. When they're given an option to have the gains they're looking for, they tend to be less resistant to the whole "It's the law" thing, and start to come around. Ireland is a different place than it was 10 or 20 years ago; we have people from all walks of life, where rules are different in 'X' country, and rules were different 'back in the day' - but it's all about bringing them around, at least that's my opinion.

darkslider

I accept the points you're making and where as I would like to avoid negative reinforcement and even the ostricising of players the bottomline is, the rules are the rules, as with any sport;
You don't dive in with your studs playing football or you're punished.
You don't overuse the whip when horse racing or you're punished.
You don't punch a guy in the nuts when boxing or you're punished.

The differences between airsoft and any other sport is that you are firing a projectile at your opponent which adds an extra level of danger, it is therefore done in a controlled, enclosed environment. For the safety of particpants most if not all sites insist on eye protection and to further protect players from occular damage the gun must be SUB 1 Joule, as stated by the law. If the gun is over a joule, it is not just a matter of cheating; not taking your hits is cheating, not goin back to the respawn point is cheating, frankly I don't care if the guy with the hot gun 'wins', the point is he's carrying an illegal, unlicensed weapon. And the same fools that bring illegal weapons to sites are the ones firing out of windows at passers by, the ones shooting at animals and ultimately the ones who will be the harbingers of death for airsoft.

Of course as you've said the foundation of any change in the sport comes from the particpants, but site management have just as much of a responsibility to the sport and the players using their facilities. We are made to sign disclaimers and join clubs so that sites can avoid a huge insurance claim for an injury, so the least anyone who signs these disclaimers should expect is that the site operates inside the law both for the saftey of the players on site and the validity of the documents they make you sign or the subscription they make you pay. If they're caught with an illegal weapon on site 'O, I didn't know' is not goin to cut it, they'll be shut down. Airsoft can be easy money from a site owners point of view 20-30 quid a head per day just to bring your own equipment, ammo and gear to shoot - don't get me wrong, some sites are incredible.... others, maybe no so much.
Most sports are regulated internally in this country and airsoft doesn't have to be any different.

Eductaion too is paramount, I couldn't agree more. But it seems that everything in the sport is marketed toward the magic '328'(even for those of us within the rules) - all you have to do is look at the adverts forum. If it's not mentioned on the ad (even if say .9 joule is listed), the first question asked is 'What's the FPS?' As has been said, it's seen as a target not a limit. I'm sure you get it all the time as a retailer. Do you dismiss this question as irrelevant? Do you tell customers that it makes no difference? I've seen huge variance in different makes and models of AEG and I'm sure if a young guy comes into the shop, picks up an m4a1 and an M4cqb the former firing 290 and the latter firing 310, he'll want the 310, regardless of range, ROF, internal parts quality etc. etc..
How do you convince someone that more is not necessarily more, when everything gears you toward biggest is best?