GM trial spuds get approval

bob charles

Thankfully the EPA have seen sense and given the go ahead to this trial. A bit of independent research and study is what is needed. Surely spraying spuds every 5 days can't be good for either man/beast or environment

cloudroost

It'll be interesting to see the results...
It's definitely been a bad year for potato blight.... Even my blight resistant Sarpo variety has been affected...
Do the sprays actually work? or is it only the sprays that are available to the commercial varieties that are any good?

bob charles

cloudroost wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see the results...
It's definitely been a bad year for potato blight.... Even my blight resistant Sarpo variety has been affected...
Do the sprays actually work? or is it only the sprays that are available to the commercial varieties that are any good?

the chemistry works but how many times it has to be applied is crazy. I grow beet myself and this year I have being through the crops for one reason or another up to 5 times with weed sprays (costing €100ac) if I had roundup ready beet I would have passed through the crop once maybe twice at a cost of about €10ac and this would be much better for wildlife/operator and my pocket. All isn't 100% rosy in the garden but the benefits of some element of use of GM tech can't be ignored.

bbam

GM crops aren't going away and given the need for increased food production and reduced chemical usage surely GM crops will become the norm in time.

The question Facing the country is which way we turn, organic or GM. Am I right that we will loose our organic status if we grow GM crops on a commercial scale?
Personally I think organic is "over rated" and "excessively expensive" GM offers the ability to grow more commercially viable crops.

PMU

yes, and make us round up dependant.

Cardinal Richelieu

PMU wrote: »

yes, and make us round up dependant.

Go to the garden forum on here, we seem to be roundup dependent anyway:D

Just listening to the woman from the "No to GM" website on RTE radio now. Apparently we don't need GM Blight resistant varieties because we already have blight resistant varieties.....strange how commercial growers arn't using them. The GM vox pop they did in Dublin shows the level of ignorance about GM in Ireland.

bob charles

PMU wrote: »

yes, and make us round up dependant.

the way round up is used in amenity areas (uneducated operators) is nothing short of a disgrace by these exact people spouting about GM & roundup ready in the one sentence

Cardinal Richelieu

bob charles wrote: »

the way round up is used in amenity areas (uneducated operators) is nothing short of a disgrace by these exact people spouting about GM & roundup ready in the one sentence

I agree, should be more control and restrictions brought in, untrained people can turn up at an agricultural suppliers and purchase pesticides. If the gardening forum is anything to go by these places are seen as a cheap place to buy large quanties. One poster wanted to know where you could get 5 gallon drums of Roundup!!:eek: Farmers/Market Gardeners have to do spray courses, are responsible for proper storage of pesticides, products subject to MRL testing, must keep dosage records of usage, prohibitive from decanting pesticides and must safely dispose of used pesticide packaging. While the gardener lashes it on like MiracleGrow on the principle that more is better and tosses the bottle into the bin after.

zenno

I have a few questions for you farmers. If you start using GM potatoes do you really think the Irish people will just munch it up with no question ? and also if Ireland's food-chain stores don't purchase your GM potatoes and most people refuse to purchase them do you think it will be profitable for you as a farmer ?, from this happening, what losses would you expect ?. what makes you think that you will sell any of this GM product in Ireland ?.

A few questions for you. but this GM potato will not sell, well unless you break the law and do not label said GM food as genetically modified. You could be sued in this case. So what makes any of you think it will sell here ?.

bob charles

zenno wrote: »

I have a few questions for you farmers. If you start using GM potatoes do you really think the Irish people will just munch it up with no question ?

I would expect every new production method to be questioned, and reckon the majority of people would use a GM potato.

zenno wrote: »

A few questions for you. but this GM potato will not sell, well unless you break the law and do not label said GM food as genetically modified. You could be sued in this case. So what makes any of you think it will sell here ?.

Whats wrong with giving customers the choice, they already have the choice between organic and conventional and why not have GM also to chose from. personally I would prefer to be buying a product that was breed through GM that say reduced the amount of insecticides that are used on plants.

why would farmers label GM food as non GM food, the farmer will produce what the market wants short and simple. Anyway how do you know if it will sell or not. Allot of the meat you eat and milk you drink is produced using GM feed ingredients.

zenno

bob charles wrote: »

I would expect every new production method to be questioned, and reckon the majority of people would use a GM potato.


Whats wrong with giving customers the choice, they already have the choice between organic and conventional and why not have GM also to chose from. personally I would prefer to be buying a product that was breed through GM that say reduced the amount of insecticides that are used on plants.

why would farmers label GM food as non GM food, the farmer will produce what the market wants short and simple. Anyway how do you know if it will sell or not. Allot of the meat you eat and milk you drink is produced using GM feed ingredients.

I only eat non GM meat and do not purchase meat from Ireland and also do not drink milk. The problem I see with this is the effect it will have on the organic farmer and as you should know, mass producing of GMO's will kill off the organic farming trade with contamination from the GMO's contaminating organic food plains. It's just not the way to go here in Ireland imo.

Yes, and if you do give customers the choice, they will choose organic all the way. Don't for a second think the Irish consumers are stupid because any sensible person with children are going to pic organic, it's a no-brainer.

I honestly think exports from Ireland of GM potatoes will suffer greatly but don't take my word for it, you will see yourself if this expands and then see how well exports of Irish GM products sell, it won't be for the faint of heart.

I will agree that there are too many pesticides in crops already but GM is definitely not the way to go because it will hurt our good standing organic export trade, People in civilized countries look for good reasonably clean food-stuffs and most will keep far away from genetically modified foods. Do some research on what people like from their food and you will see organic food tops it off.

Pulsating Star

What if they get loose and interbreed?:eek:

Dave!

Pulsating Star wrote: »

What if they get loose and interbreed?:eek:

Tipp Man

zenno wrote: »

I only eat non GM meat and do not purchase meat from Ireland and also do not drink milk. .

On what grounds do you not eat Irish meat and drink Irish milk?

Very confused by this

Tipp Man

I suppose first thing to say is that this is a trial on a small area by Teagasc - they are the guys that we depend on to do the research on all agri matters - so i have no problem with the trial

The use of GM on a much larger scale though is a broader issue and 1 which will need serious debate before we embark on it fully

As we export so much of our agri produce we have to take into account what our markets want. If Irish people have no problem with GM but British do then we most certainly cannot use GM. This is much bigger than just what Irish farmers and the Irish public feel about GM. We have to consider all our end customers and potential end customers

My own opinion is that GM would need to produce crops at a seriously reduced cost to be even considered. Even then not sure if it should be considered

flatout11

zenno wrote: »

Yes, and if you do give customers the choice, they will choose organic all the way. Don't for a second think the Irish consumers are stupid because any sensible person with children are going to pic organic, it's a no-brainer.

I honestly think exports from Ireland of GM potatoes will suffer greatly but don't take my word for it, you will see yourself if this expands and then see how well exports of Irish GM products sell, it won't be for the faint of heart.

irish customers have the choice in organic or conventional ........ and the vast majority will pick conventional, go to any supemarket this weekend and look into the trollys .....
The biggest determining factor (especially at the moment) is price.... not always a good thing i will admit but the reality is its cheaper to produce food conventionally, but this is side tracking into a organic debate...
look the reality is we need scientific edivence of the performance of these modified crops under irish conditions - and this is a confined study within the bounds of a research centre is it not?
Also are we not already eating products containing GM ingredients shipped into the EU?

BeeDI

zenno wrote: »

I only eat non GM meat and do not purchase meat from Ireland and also do not drink milk. The problem I see with this is the effect it will have on the organic farmer and as you should know, mass producing of GMO's will kill off the organic farming trade with contamination from the GMO's contaminating organic food plains. It's just not the way to go here in Ireland imo.

Yes, and if you do give customers the choice, they will choose organic all the way. Don't for a second think the Irish consumers are stupid because any sensible person with children are going to pic organic, it's a no-brainer.

I honestly think exports from Ireland of GM potatoes will suffer greatly but don't take my word for it, you will see yourself if this expands and then see how well exports of Irish GM products sell, it won't be for the faint of heart.

I will agree that there are too many pesticides in crops already but GM is definitely not the way to go because it will hurt our good standing organic export trade, People in civilized countries look for good reasonably clean food-stuffs and most will keep far away from genetically modified foods. Do some research on what people like from their food and you will see organic food tops it off.

You don't eat meat from Ireland Why not? It's probably the safest and most traceable meat on the planet!!!
Don't drink milk! Why? Is it a taste thing, or are you afraid farmers put old engine oil and effluent into it, to bulk it up a bit

5live

Pulsating Star wrote: »

What if they get loose and interbreed?:eek:

Firstly, potatoes are grown from and propogated by tubers ie the very item you are consuming. It is genetically pure and cannot be 'contaminated' by any other potato product, either GM or organic.

Secondly, these trials are using GM potatos using genes already in potatos. It basically shortens the breeding programme of potatos from 20+ years to 2 years. There are no genes from dolphins, badgers or poppies used in the making of these products.

5live

zenno wrote: »

I only eat non GM meat and do not purchase meat from Ireland and also do not drink milk. The problem I see with this is the effect it will have on the organic farmer and as you should know, mass producing of GMO's will kill off the organic farming trade with contamination from the GMO's contaminating organic food plains. It's just not the way to go here in Ireland imo.

Yes, and if you do give customers the choice, they will choose organic all the way. Don't for a second think the Irish consumers are stupid because any sensible person with children are going to pic organic, it's a no-brainer.

I honestly think exports from Ireland of GM potatoes will suffer greatly but don't take my word for it, you will see yourself if this expands and then see how well exports of Irish GM products sell, it won't be for the faint of heart.

I will agree that there are too many pesticides in crops already but GM is definitely not the way to go because it will hurt our good standing organic export trade, People in civilized countries look for good reasonably clean food-stuffs and most will keep far away from genetically modified foods. Do some research on what people like from their food and you will see organic food tops it off.

What effect will it have on the organic farmer? His potatos cannot be contaminated by GM potatos unless he decides to grow his potatos from seed, which only breeders do.

If consumers will always go for organic, then how come about 1.5% of food sold is organic? If the demand was there and the willingness to actually pay an economic price for it was there also then nothing else would be available. But neither is there to any great degree.

What organis exports are going to be affected? Can you supply any figures as to the actual total monetary value of organic exports? Last i heard, the organic lobby was trying to convince more farmers to convert to supply domestic demand, not to supply imaginary export markets.

I am a sensible person with children and dont buy organic food to any appreciable degree. The hype about 'purity' doesnt counter, in any way, the necessity to grow enough food to feed the population, not only here but worldwide.

As for most people staying away from GM products, i think you may have to re-imagine your world a little closer to reality. The only place with any appreciable opposition to GM is europe, fed mainly by poor scientific knowledge and incessant ramblings of luddite opponents without a single signifigant scientific paper to support their claims. Second and third world economies are more in tune with food security rather than the provinance of that food security. To quote the current phrase in fashion, GM is a first world problem. The USA has GM foods on sale with 20 years and nobody has yet grown a second penis or third ear due to their consumption of GM foods.

And you have comsumed GM products in the recent past or your children have. A huge proportion of medicines are derived from GM production so i assume you will now cease giving medicines to your children?

Oh sweet Lord, protect people from themselves:rolleyes:

bbam

Tipp Man wrote: »

On what grounds do you not eat Irish meat and drink Irish milk?

Very confused by this

Most stores don't let anyone in when they are wearing the tin foil hats.. thats the problem right there
Maybe removing the tin foil hat and reading some decent evidence based scientific information would be benifecial to many.

Birdnuts

Tipp Man wrote: »

I suppose first thing to say is that this is a trial on a small area by Teagasc - they are the guys that we depend on to do the research on all agri matters - so i have no problem with the trial

The use of GM on a much larger scale though is a broader issue and 1 which will need serious debate before we embark on it fully

As we export so much of our agri produce we have to take into account what our markets want. If Irish people have no problem with GM but British do then we most certainly cannot use GM. This is much bigger than just what Irish farmers and the Irish public feel about GM. We have to consider all our end customers and potential end customers

My own opinion is that GM would need to produce crops at a seriously reduced cost to be even considered. Even then not sure if it should be considered

Caution is the word - especcially in light of increasing pest resistance to GM cotton,soya and other crops in India, South America and the US. Monsanto et al's claims that GM crops reduce pesticide use don't appear to stand up in many cases eitheir.

flatout11

Birdnuts wrote: »

Caution is the word - especcially in light of increasing pest resistance to GM cotton,soya and other crops in India, South America and the US. Monsanto et al's claims that GM crops reduce pesticide use don't appear to stand up in many cases eitheir.

hence the need for detailed studies .........

Tipp Man

I think sustainability is the most important thing in agriculture at the moment - or it should be

I don't think we are farming in a way that can be sustained long term. We are using too many imputs, at too high a cost, to produce more output at a lower sale price

Not only that put we are putting huge pressure on the worlds resources by doing so. From using too much water, land that is not suitable to agri, resources such as potash and most importantly we are putting huge demands on the land itself - which in turn requires more inputs. its a vicious circle

As ye probably know we are not organic farmers but i have a lot of time for a lot of the aspects of organic. Using clover swards, much greater crop rotation, more mixed farming - producing less but producing it cheaper and better

Agriculture has become a lot more efficient (so they say) over the last 30-40 years but in my opinion it has become less sustainable - that surely can't be a good thing

bbam

Tipp Man wrote: »

I think sustainability is the most important thing in agriculture at the moment - or it should be

I don't think we are farming in a way that can be sustained long term. We are using too many imputs, at too high a cost, to produce more output at a lower sale price

Not only that put we are putting huge pressure on the worlds resources by doing so. From using too much water, land that is not suitable to agri, resources such as potash and most importantly we are putting huge demands on the land itself - which in turn requires more inputs. its a vicious circle

As ye probably know we are not organic farmers but i have a lot of time for a lot of the aspects of organic. Using clover swards, much greater crop rotation, more mixed farming - producing less but producing it cheaper and better

Agriculture has become a lot more efficient (so they say) over the last 30-40 years but in my opinion it has become less sustainable - that surely can't be a good thing

Its an excellantly made point..
I think another problem that can be seen in Ireland is that for example farms here in Cavan are trying to compete with farms in the golden Vale where farming conditions are completly different.. this leads as you said to ever increasing costs into a system of ever reducing margins..

Cardinal Richelieu

Birdnuts wrote: »

Caution is the word - especcially in light of increasing pest resistance to GM cotton,soya and other crops in India, South America and the US. Monsanto et al's claims that GM crops reduce pesticide use don't appear to stand up in many cases eitheir.

BBC Countryfile were reporting on some very interesting cereal research that involves trying to GM cereal crops so they have the nitrogen fixing abilities of legumes. Would certainly decrease the use of artificial fertilisers that pollute are waterways if it works.

Cardinal Richelieu

flatout11 wrote: »

hence the need for detailed studies .........

Like the long term detailed study that said the consumption of organic foods was no better than conventional food? Yet the organic lobby chooses to ignore that study....

bbam

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Like the long term detailed study that said the consumption of organic foods was no better than conventional food? Yet the organic lobby chooses to ignore that study....

But it gives the consumer a choice..
Equally GM spuds would give the consumer the choice to choose spuds perhaps that received only a fraction of the spraying and fertilizer that conventional spuds receive.. price may also enter into the equasion, less spray and fertilizer for the same or more productivity should reduce the price in the shops..

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

But it gives the consumer a choice..
Equally GM spuds would give the consumer the choice to choose spuds perhaps that received only a fraction of the spraying and fertilizer that conventional spuds receive.. price may also enter into the equasion, less spray and fertilizer for the same or more productivity should reduce the price in the shops..

If we want to use less spray, less fertiliser and less chemicals then why not go down the organic route??

GM is the easy option but is it a sustainable option?

bbam

Tipp Man wrote: »

If we want to use less spray, less fertiliser and less chemicals then why not go down the organic route??

GM is the easy option but is it a sustainable option?

Why not go down both routes ?
The more options there are available for producers and consumers the better it has to be for all...

I'm no expert but I fail to see how GM would be less sustainable than Organic

Tipp Man

bbam wrote: »

Why not go down both routes ?
The more options there are available for producers and consumers the better it has to be for all...

I'm no expert but I fail to see how GM would be less sustainable than Organic

I'm no expert either

I have a couple of issues with GM before i'd be jumping on its bandwagon:

• the power of companies like Montaso would be too strong - you would have to buy your seed and sprays from them without choice, the power they could exert would be far to strong - it's bad enough at the moment with Larry and Tesco
• I'm not a fan of interferring as it does with the basic composition of nature - if a desert is too dry to grow wheat then don't grow wheat as oppossed to artificially creating a wheat to grow in the desert
• why are we actually doing it in the first place - whats the need for it?
• if we jump onboard how can we get off the boat if needed

flatout11

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Like the long term detailed study that said the consumption of organic foods was no better than conventional food? Yet the organic lobby chooses to ignore that study....

you can bring the horse to water but.....

flatout11

Tipp Man wrote: »

If we want to use less spray, less fertiliser and less chemicals then why not go down the organic route??

GM is the easy option but is it a sustainable option?

From a Global food security perspective is organic sustaniable or is it merely a luxury of more affluent society ? just asking?

Cardinal Richelieu

flatout11 wrote: »

you can bring the horse to water but.....

Exactly, you can ask for a 1000 years of research and both sides will still cherry pick the research that suits their argument. I was looking at this debate on another site and one anti-GM poster was referencing a PHD student work!

Cardinal Richelieu

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm no expert either

I have a couple of issues with GM before i'd be jumping on its bandwagon:

• the power of companies like Montaso would be too strong - you would have to buy your seed and sprays from them without choice, the power they could exert would be far to strong - it's bad enough at the moment with Larry and Tesco
• I'm not a fan of interferring as it does with the basic composition of nature - if a desert is too dry to grow wheat then don't grow wheat as oppossed to artificially creating a wheat to grow in the desert
• why are we actually doing it in the first place - whats the need for it?
• if we jump onboard how can we get off the boat if needed

We already do, most of the big chemical and seed suppliers have done some GM research.

Conflats

The Trial in Oak Park is to see the effects of blight and how it reacts to the GM tuber and if the research isnt done we can't know how it will work.

A lot of people are saying about organic this and that, I would love to hear what the people who go hungry everyday think about it? Now i'm not into bashing organic but the sh**e spread by the movement about GM is crazy. Their big selling point is they dont use pesticides and artificial fertilizer its no wonder they are reacting like they are sure if GM can help the conventional farmer overcome these issues they will loose a big selling point.

Ireland needs to put in place a proper set of laws and regulations to stop corporate greed taking over, it should involve proven to the department of ag etc that they have strong agronomic or end use benefits over the existing system e.g a winter milling wheat variety with good disease resistance and consistant protein and high hagberg numbers would be a great benefit to Ireland

Cardinal Richelieu

Tipp Man wrote: »

If we want to use less spray, less fertiliser and less chemicals then why not go down the organic route??

GM is the easy option but is it a sustainable option?

Cost, organic requires huge labour inputs if you hope to have a decent crop that meets the consumer quality standards. Its fine having lettuce with the odd slug or carrots with root hairs and mud at a farmers market but put that product in a supermarket and customers start to complain because for supermarkets they have a higher perception of quality.

Organic also demands a premium price that the majority of people can't afford. I was looking at an Irish organic site the other day, they were selling 1 head of lettuce for 2.50 while I could buy a conventional box of 12 lettuce for 3.00. Do you know anyone that does a weekly shop of only organic food products?

Atilathehun

Well my haggard of Queens is wiped out with blight this year. 100%.

If I get my hands on a bit of GM seed next year, I won't have any hesitation in planting them.

bbam

flatout11 wrote: »

Also are we not already eating products containing GM ingredients shipped into the EU?

Indeed..
I looked at the ingredients of the last bag of layers mash I bought and it had GM crops listed in its contents..

johngalway

Atilathehun wrote: »

Well my haggard of Queens is wiped out with blight this year. 100%.

Are Queens particularly susceptible to blight? Did you spray and what with if you did?

My Desiree are looking good at the moment, fingers crossed.

Conflats

johngalway wrote: »

Are Queens particularly susceptible to blight? Did you spray and what with if you did?

My Desiree are looking good at the moment, fingers crossed.

Yes british queens are very susceptible to blight, only product available to gardeners is diathane(mancozeb) they are a 2nd early variety and an old one with extremely poor resistance to both forms of blight. best to sow early and have them up before the need to spray(usually early-mid june)

WhatNowForUs?

Can anyone tell me if the pollen count in GM foods are less or more then their equivelent.

Atomicjuicer

I'm sick about this news.

I wrote to the EPA during the period of time to voice public concern (there was practically a 2 minute window and you had to pay cash and no one anywhere knew anything about it).

I explained that Ireland's reputation for safe reliable honest food was more valuable globally than this foolish study.

They didn't even take my concern on board. Just went ahead and ignored my point about protecting our image.

The people advocating this are just as bad as scientists who push nuclear energy and companies like Monsanto who produce defoliants. Ignorant of the power they wield and the damage it most certainly will eventually do.

This is the turning point.

johngalway

Conflats wrote: »

Yes british queens are very susceptible to blight, only product available to gardeners is diathane(mancozeb) they are a 2nd early variety and an old one with extremely poor resistance to both forms of blight. best to sow early and have them up before the need to spray(usually early-mid june)

I'm more worried about wire worm and slugs than blight to be honest

Conflats

johngalway wrote: »

I'm more worried about wire worm and slugs than blight to be honest

The wireworms are a hard one to control but just watch ground out of grass, slugs well they are everywhere and its hard to say what will work pellets do work but if you have a few ducks try letting them out into the potatoes for a few hours and they will clean them up for you or just basic things like crsuhed eggshells work as well to create a barrier

Conflats

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if the pollen count in GM foods are less or more then their equivelent.

Study done as a pre trial in to this for these questions found potato pollen is the exact same but only travels 28ft from source.

Also potato pollen does not affect the tuber even if cross pollenation occurs as the seeds produced from potatoes are pretty much useless unless you are a potato breeder who use glasshouses to make the crosses so in real terms the pollen is not of any worry

5live

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if the pollen count in GM foods are less or more then their equivelent.

Mostly exactly the same, unless breeding for greater/lesser pollen or an incorrect insert, which is a problem shared by normal crop breeding also

Markcheese

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

flatout11 wrote: »

hence the need for detailed studies .........

Like the long term detailed study that said the consumption of organic foods was no better than conventional food? Yet the organic lobby chooses to ignore that study....

Almost all studies will show what the organisation commissioning it want it to, because it'll be set up to get a certain result...

flatout11

Markcheese wrote: »

Almost all studies will show what the organisation commissioning it want it to, because it'll be set up to get a certain result...

bit of a negative way at looking at things, studies are set up to answer specific questions within a defined set of parameters (although in reflection Irish climatic conditions can hardly be described as defined )
you can have a pre-held idea of the expected outcome based on similar studies, experience etc.. but the results have to stand up to scrutiny at the end of the day

Graces7

Interesting thread; thank you for the range of replies. As shocked at the garden forum here as you are... re weedkillers I mean.

Good debates re organic in the UK Kitchen Garden forum...

Many of us buy on cost these days. I buy eg free range eggs at market but sometimes non free range in supermarkets. Price speaks loudest. Grow as much as I can and never use chemicals. And if I buy vegetables, organic is just too expensive on a small pension.

Not sure what blight looks like.. I am eating Queens.. grown here.

Don;t fancy GM either..