Iarnród Éireann ripping off children

Murt10

I recently became aware that my children pay the full adult fare when they are going anywhere from Coolmine Station. I assume the same applies from the other Dublin 15 stations.

When they get to the station the office is unmanned. They know that they are not allowed on board a train without a ticket. There signs up all over the place to this effect, so they go to the ticket machine, which does not issue childrens tickets, and the only ones available to them are full adult fares, so they buy these instead.

Maybe CIE had a problem with adults buying and using childrens tickets from the vending machines, but that is their problem and something that they should address themselves, but surely they should not be allowed to take money under false pretences from children too young to know better.

thomasj

Murt10 wrote: »

I recently became aware that my children pay the full adult fare when they are going anywhere from Coolmine Station. I assume the same applies from the other Dublin 15 stations.

When they get to the station the office is unmanned. They know that they are not allowed on board a train without a ticket. There signs up all over the place to this effect, so they go to the ticket machine, which does not issue childrens tickets, and the only ones available to them are full adult fares, so they buy these instead.

Maybe CIE had a problem with adults buying and using childrens tickets from the vending machines, but that is their problem and something that they should address themselves, but surely they should not be allowed to take money under false pretences from children too young to know better.

You raise a good point, one that has also been highlighted recently on one of the late night radio shows but this issue is a much wider issue not confined to d15 and it should be in the commuting and transport forum.

Pat Dunne

I am a regular commuter on the Maynooth line and I am aware that Connolly and Pearse Station have a facility for paying when you arrive at these stations. As I had to avail of this only last week when I found the Ticket office and Platform entry turnstiles at Clonsilla Station to be closed, along with none of the Tag-on Posts working.

I simply went to the staff at the exit turnstile at Connolly and they sorted out my fare without any hassle.

I aslo believe anyone travelling from Broombridge (Cabra) do this as their normal method of payment, because of on going problems with the Ticket Machines and Tag-on Posts at this particular station.

I hope this might be of some assistance.

stevekavo

I went to pay at Pearse st station before as when i got on at navan rd the office was unmanned and the machine out of action. When i went up to the office they said i couldnt pay and issued me with a fine. When i told him what had happened he said there was nothing he could do and if i wanted i would have to appeal the fine. If you get your appeal turned down they wont entertain any more communication there word is final.

They dont care about customers only about making as much money as they can.

BostonB

Our public transport system is like the stone ages.

Gaspode

Moved as it's not a D15 specific topic.

LXFlyer

Children do NOT have to pay full fare.

In this case as it is impossible to buy the appropriate ticket at Coolmine (due to the station being unmanned and the TVM not selling child tickets), then they are permitted to board a train without a ticket and then pay at their destination.

The rule is simple - if it is possible to buy the ticket appropriate to your journey at the station, then you must do so. If it is not possible then you can pay at the destination.

If you stick to that rule then you will be ok.

(I'm trying to keep it simple without going into the booking office -v- TVM argument).

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

Children do NOT have to pay full fare.

In this case as it is impossible to buy the appropriate ticket at Coolmine (due to the station being unmanned and the TVM not selling child tickets), then they are permitted to board a train without a ticket and then pay at their destination.

The rule is simple - if it is possible to buy the ticket appropriate to your journey at the station, then you must do so. If it is not possible then you can pay at the destination.

If you stick to that rule then you will be ok.

(I'm trying to keep it simple without going into the booking office -v- TVM argument).

The op may well be on again telling how their child was told they could not pay for their tickets at the destination and they must pay the fine or face court and jail.

Nothing in Irish Rail is consistant or stable except the rapid speed at which they soak up millions of taxpayers euros

Pat Dunne

Tell you what guys ,I will contact Barry Kenny(Irish Rail) and request a written response on this one.

Cookie_Monster

Isn't there something about a child ticket only being a concession and that it doesn't have to be available, an adult ticket can be purchased instead when you don't have the option of a child ticket available?
I'm sure something along those lines was discussed on here before.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

The rule is simple - if it is possible to buy the ticket appropriate to your journey at the station, then you must do so. If it is not possible then you can pay at the destination.

The problems is the misinformation from IE on the topic. All the signs around the place saying no ticket no travel and so-on, which are clearly and probably deliberately misleading!

n97 mini

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Tell you what guys ,I will contact Barry Kenny(Irish Rail) and request a written response on this one.

As I said in the above post it's the misinformation put out by IE that is the real problem.

Sponge Bob

Why don't write to Senator Fidelma Healy Eames and get her on the case.

http://fidelmahealyeames.ie/contact-me/

Murt10

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Tell you what guys ,I will contact Barry Kenny(Irish Rail) and request a written response on this one.

I've also sent one to Leo Varadker the Minister responsible. He lives right beside Coolmine Station. I suppose a refund for all the overcharging is out of the question

n97 mini

Barry Kenny explained it on the radio a few months ago when this very topic was discussed. IIRC child tickets are concessions and IE are under no obligation to give concessions at all, ever. They only give them because they are being nice.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

Barry Kenny explained it on the radio a few months ago when this very topic was discussed. IIRC child tickets are concessions and IE are under no obligation to give concessions at all, ever. They only give them because they are being nice.

They should stop selling them across the board than rather than discriminate against people because of where they live.

Irish rail really needs to get very basic stuff like this sorted out. They should be on top of their business but it appears like they are only picking up bits as they bundle along.

Victor

Get child leap cards for them, although these are only valid until they turn 16.

I'm not sure if this first link will work: https://www.leapcard.ie/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=JWy4VAGKTj%2b%2fDNmFWcN9QZ%2fo0JP6zD2n6pqBOakJu1vHU41pDCUJUVxSEV6BwD%2b62JbEoG%2fuPUsLgbg7q58eNFMFV1WUVwsnalPEkX4kImlZDofZ5aDmrMWFWz6zEgbpBBjxF6fU4Et3ZeTwA54xywAGJ2NLeabSeegmTH3ti9c%3d

https://www.leapcard.ie/_uploads/ChildL_12-15App_Form_V3%201_080212.pdf

thomasj

http://www.irishrail.ie/faresandtickets

according to this page child tickets can be bought at ticket machines?

Also if child tickets are concessions and irish rail are under no obligation to sell one surely they must be highlighting this in their terms and conditions?

n97 mini

thomasj wrote: »

http://www.irishrail.ie/faresandtickets

according to this page child tickets can be bought at ticket machines?

Bottom of that page:

2) Child tickets are not available from Ticket Machines within the Short Hop Zone.

Victor

The note needs to be added to everywhere the child fare applies.

Carawaystick

This http://nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Cie-operators-fares-increases-Dec-2011.pdf

has child fares. I presume these are a maximum fare for a child, and not a gift from the kindness of Irish Rail's heart

n97 mini

They're prices for child concession tickets. It appears no-one is obliged to issue a concession ticket.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Barry Kenny explained it on the radio a few months ago when this very topic was discussed. IIRC child tickets are concessions and IE are under no obligation to give concessions at all, ever. They only give them because they are being nice.

That's what I remembered. It's was something to do with some adults buying child tickets from the machine and using them so they pulled them from the machines. Can't blame them if that is the case.

tricky D

stevekavo wrote: »

I went to pay at Pearse st station before as when i got on at navan rd the office was unmanned and the machine out of action. When i went up to the office they said i couldnt pay and issued me with a fine. When i told him what had happened he said there was nothing he could do and if i wanted i would have to appeal the fine. If you get your appeal turned down they wont entertain any more communication there word is final.

They dont care about customers only about making as much money as they can.

The fact that you went up to them to pay means there was no intent on your part to evade the fare, so they really haven't got a leg to stand on.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That's what I remembered. It's was something to do with some adults buying child tickets from the machine and using them so they pulled them from the machines. Can't blame them if that is the case.

I would have thought it's not the best solution. It also doesn't make sense. An adult getting caught with a child ticket is no less of a misdemeanour than travelling with no ticket, so I would really question how many people were at it.

Secondly my 15-y.o. daughter and her mates resorted to not buying tickets at all, instead opting to get them at the destination, and in many cases the destination is also unmanned, resulting in a 100% loss of revenue for IE. When you have a €1.30 for your ticket but the machine is demanding €2.20, what are you going to do? Under the bye laws you can travel as your intention is to pay.

JayRoc

stevekavo wrote: »

I went to pay at Pearse st station before as when i got on at navan rd the office was unmanned and the machine out of action. When i went up to the office they said i couldnt pay and issued me with a fine. When i told him what had happened he said there was nothing he could do and if i wanted i would have to appeal the fine. .

That this is continuing to happen is outrageous.
I know of several stations where it can often be impossible to purchase a ticket. For staff of Irish Rail to fine someone under those circumstances beggars belief.
They really, REALLY need to sort out some sort of consistent, coherent policy for when this happens, rather than have it decided by whatever whim tickles the fancy of their customer-facing staff on a given day.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

I would have thought it's not the best solution. It also doesn't make sense. An adult getting caught with a child ticket is no less of a misdemeanour than travelling with no ticket, so I would really question how many people were at it.

Secondly my 15-y.o. daughter and her mates resorted to not buying tickets at all, instead opting to get them at the destination, and in many cases the destination is also unmanned, resulting in a 100% loss of revenue for IE. When you have a €1.30 for your ticket but the machine is demanding €2.20, what are you going to do? Under the bye laws you can travel as your intention is to pay.

The problem is, you or I could easily buy a kids ticket and validate it at the other end and there was no way at all to stop it happening bar stop selling these tickets. Not ideal but other than 100% checks on trains (not practical on commuter trains) or have conductors that sell tickets on all services (Not practical, especially at rush hour) then there isn't much else they can do.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The problem is, you or I could easily buy a kids ticket and validate it at the other end and there was no way at all to stop it happening bar stop selling his tickets.

I get your point, but on the Maynooth line a ticket isn't required to exit any
station, from Maynooth (and indeed as far as Sligo) to Connolly, inclusive.

I would like to see the figures tho. If the revenue has increased since they blocked child tickets on the machines, then they have been vindicated.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

I get your point, but on the Maynooth line a ticket isn't required to exit any
station, from Maynooth (and indeed as far as Sligo) to Connolly, inclusive.

In that case you can also buy the kids ticket and nobody't the wiser unless you are checked one day.

With concession fares, it's a bit easier to have a normal fare and concession fare with string attached; be it ID or a pass or proof of eligibility or a specified time of use. Leaving it open without some limit leaves it open to abuse by a less moral than you or I. Indeed, I vaguely remember a thread on here ages ago where somebody argued that they could use a kids ticket as the machine could sell you one.

TheChrisD

n97 mini wrote: »

I get your point, but on the Maynooth line a ticket isn't required to exit any station, from Maynooth (and indeed as far as Sligo) to Connolly, inclusive.

Navan Road Parkway, no? Also, how is one supposed to leave Connolly without a ticket unless they go to the manned gate, or sneak out the doors nearest the Enterprise platform?

n97 mini

TheChrisD wrote: »

Navan Road Parkway, no? Also, how is one supposed to leave Connolly without a ticket unless they go to the manned gate, or sneak out the doors nearest the Enterprise platform?

Maybe NRP, but if so it's the only one. Second question you answered it yourself. All the other stations on the line you just walk out the gate.

LXFlyer

Drumcondra is also always staffed.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Drumcondra is also always staffed.

You don't need a ticket to activate the exit barrier.

Julius Seizure

A good place for stuff like this is railusers.ie

Officially, the rule is that

If you haven't been given the option to buy the appropriate ticket at the station, en route (i.e. conductor) or at the destination, it is deemed not your fault and so you travel free

I tell you, it does come quite in handy in places like Greystones ect What I didn't understand was the option to pay at destination, what with the tickets after the barriers, they're hardly going to chase you.. especially say the River platforms in heuston (6,7,8,10)
Whenever I get in any fuss just quote it back to the manned gate and they'll never have an issue

TheChrisD

n97 mini wrote: »

Second question you answered it yourself. All the other stations on the line you just walk out the gate.

So you're saying people just walk out at Connolly too?

n97 mini

TheChrisD wrote: »

So you're saying people just walk out at Connolly too?

The sure do, and I've even reported them to the ticket guy at the barrier. There are a couple of kids from a rough part of D15 that do it regularly.

bk

TheChrisD wrote: »

So you're saying people just walk out at Connolly too?

Actually I discovered today that it is possible. You can walk over by the enterprise platform and down and out via the car park. It is a long round about way, but is possible.

Also possible to access the Connolly platforms by the same route in reverse!!

BTW I was not looking to actually fare evade, rather I was looking how to access the very badly sign posted bicycle parking.

It turns out that if the enterprise doors are closed you have to pass through the ticket barriers to get to the car park and bike parking from the station!! You have to tell the guy at the ticket desk and hope he saw you coming from there and doesn't think you are trying to cheat the fare.

Seems like a really stupid and "leaky" setup. I can't understand why they don't just leave the doors to the enterprise platform open all the time and instead have barriers/fencing separating the enterprise platform from the rest of the commuter platforms. Thus giving people easy access to and from the car and bike park.

Plus while they are at it, proper signage to the bike and car park like they have at Hueston and dump the crap bike stands they have at Connolly and replace them with sheffield U stands and put up a shelter like they have at Heuston.

foggy_lad

Got a free trip from Cork the other night, the ticket office in Cork was closed for the night and when the train got to Heuston I just walked out through the open barriers! There was someone in the booth at the barriers but looked like they were on their mobile or otherwise too busy to check for tickets or to have people put their tickets through the barriers.

murphaph

Why don't IE just sell children's tickets at TVMs like every other railway operator in the Western Hemisphere? :rolleyes:

What a joke of a railway.

goingnowhere

London Underground don't sell child tickets full stop....

murphaph

goingnowhere wrote: »

London Underground don't sell child tickets full stop....

Yeah but they don't sell them at all so there's no inconcistency.

Julius Seizure

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah but they don't sell them at all so there's no inconcistency.

Pretty sure they do, at least by oyster or travel card they do, or integrated ticketing to london zones from further afield than zone 9.

murphaph

Dubhaltach wrote: »

Pretty sure they do, at least by oyster or travel card they do, or integrated ticketing to london zones from further afield than zone 9.

ok, they don't sell child singles at ticket counters. LU adult singles are also horrendously expensive: they want people to use Oyster and the pricing policy reflects this.

Why do we always have to look to the worst examples in Europe and say "at least we're no worse than them" anyway? In my local S Bahn station in Berlin (unmanned, like most) I can buy a ticket to any destination on the DB network, anywhere in Germany. I can buy a monthly ticket for use on all Berlin services, including those not operated by DB and including child and reduced fare (seniors, disabled) tickets (which require ID to make them valid).

IE have made a conscious decision not to sell one type of ticket to make life easier for them while making it more complicated for their customers. They are, as usual, a complete joke.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

Actually I discovered today that it is possible. You can walk over by the enterprise platform and down and out via the car park.

You don't even have to go that far. The doors onto the main concourse at P2 (the Enterprise platform) don't have ticket barriers.

And you're right, it's a leaky setup!

And the funny thing is last time I posted about this here, Victor deleted it all, as I was apparently telling people how to break the law!