Learner Permit Expired

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

Hi Quick Q. I know somebody driving around with a learner permit that expired about 3 years ago. They have been able to insure the car. What is the penalty if convicted?

RootX

Although they have managed to get the insurance disk I doubt they're covered(in case of an accident). They probably lied to their insurance company.
I don't know what's the penalty for driving uninsured and without a license.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

Yeah I can see penalty for no insurance but not for no licence. Suppose they can't put points on something you don't have.

RootX

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/Types-of-offences/

You get a court summons for driving without insurance; I presume that's what happens when driving without a license too.

coylemj

RootX wrote: »

Although they have managed to get the insurance disk I doubt they're covered(in case of an accident). They probably lied to their insurance company.
I don't know what's the penalty for driving uninsured and without a license.

Insurance companies can only renounce the policy if you are disqualified or have exceeded a defined threshold of penalty points (varies by company), have a driving conviction or pending prosecution and have failed to notify them. Simply driving on an expired learner permit or driving licence does not invalidate the insurance policy, if there is one.

Why do you think he lied to the insurance company? I've never been asked if my licence is current and nowhere in the policy document does it says that my licence needs to be current. My renewal notice does not say that the renewal is conditional on my licence being current so I don't see how you can speculate that the person being referred to has lied to anyone.

There are thousands of people around the country driving with learner permits, expired and current and insurance companies are happy to take their money year after year.

Guy:Incognito

coylemj wrote: »

Why do you think he lied to the insurance company? I've never been asked if my licence is current and nowhere in the policy document does it says that my licence needs to be current.

Surely the default assumption for anyone would be that you need an in date licence to drive?

coylemj

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Surely the default assumption for anyone would be that you need an in date licence to drive?

I'm only dealing with the proposition that someone driving on an expired learner permit is ipso facto uninsured which appears to be the nub of the thread.

RootX

coylemj wrote: »

Insurance companies can only renounce the policy if you are disqualified or have exceeded a defined threshold of penalty points (varies by company), have a driving conviction or pending prosecution and have failed to notify them.

Why do you think he lied to the insurance company? I've never been asked if my licence is current and nowhere in the policy document does it says that my licence needs to be current.

There are thousands of people around the country driving with learner permits, expired and current and insurance companies are happy to take their money year after year.

When my wife and I applied for our car insurance, we had to let the insurance company know of the type of license we have(full Irish, provisional, European, other) and how may years we have our licenses for. We also signed the policy that says we confirm all the information we supplied is true and accurate.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't insure me if I had an expired license.

They do take our money, that's true, whether they will pay out in case of a claim, it's a different story.

coylemj

RootX wrote: »

When my wife and I applied for our car insurance, we had to let the insurance company know of the type of license we have(full Irish, provisional, European, other) and how may years we have our licenses for. We also signed the policy that says we confirm all the information we supplied is true and accurate.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't insure me if I had an expired license.

They do take our money, that's true, whether they will pay out in case of a claim, it's a different story.

When you take out a policy for the first time, they want to see your full licence because they charge less if you have passed the test and they load the premium if you only have a learner permit. They asked you how many years you are driving as part of risk profiling.

Once you have the policy in place they couldn't give a toss if your licence is expired or not, it has no effect on insurance cover.

angeline

Most insurance certs state that you are insured once you have held at some time a driving licence and are not disqualified from driving. This person has probably been with the same insurance company for years and they would simply renew the policy without asking to see a current driving licence.

RootX

I understand what you guys are saying.
The above mentioned driver is able to renew his policy and get the cert.
My point is that he's violating the policy agreement by not holding a valid license, therefore he's uninsured.

Now, I went through my policy, which states the following(among others):

a) "Failure to disclosure all material information (i.e. information likely to influence the assessment and acceptance of your Proposal) or provide false information could mean you do not get the cover you need or could invalidate your insurance"

b) "You declare that the following statements and particulars are accurate, true and complete:
1. hold a current Provisional Irish License, or a Full Irish or EU Driving License"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing to get on your nerves or anything; I just find it hard to believe that the driver in question has a valid insurance.

jhegarty

RootX wrote: »

My point is that he's violating the policy agreement by not holding a valid license, therefore he's uninsured.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. You are not uninsured just because your license expires.

You can be drunk, untaxed, no nct , driving the wrong way down the motorway at 200 mph on the an expired provisional license for 25 years ago and your insurance company will have to pay the 3rd party claim.

RootX

jhegarty wrote: »

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. You are not uninsured just because your license expires.

You can be drunk, untaxed, no nct , driving the wrong way down the motorway at 200 mph on the an expired provisional license for 25 years ago and your insurance company will have to pay the 3rd party claim.

Ok, it's not true because I say it, np.

How about the points I quoted from the insurance policy? do they say something different?

coylemj

There are also policy documents these days which say that the car has to have a current NCT but apparently there are limited conditions under which an insurance company can repudiate a policy and the driver's licence being expired is not one of them, nor is an expired NCT.

Now if the car was so badly maintained that it was a death trap, yes the insurance company could deny cover. Ditto if the driver had racked up a sackload of points or had been convicted of a serious driving offence like dangerous driving and failed to notify the insurance company but they cannot deny cover simply because your licence is expired.

ResearchWill

RootX wrote: »

I understand what you guys are saying.
The above mentioned driver is able to renew his policy and get the cert.
My point is that he's violating the policy agreement by not holding a valid license, therefore he's uninsured.

Now, I went through my policy, which states the following(among others):

a) "Failure to disclosure all material information (i.e. information likely to influence the assessment and acceptance of your Proposal) or provide false information could mean you do not get the cover you need or could invalidate your insurance"

b) "You declare that the following statements and particulars are accurate, true and complete:
1. hold a current Provisional Irish License, or a Full Irish or EU Driving License"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing to get on your nerves or anything; I just find it hard to believe that the driver in question has a valid insurance.

There are regulations that cover insurance, the lack of a licence is not a reason to invalidate third party cover. An insurance company can only invalidate policy if proper notice given by registered post. This can not be done post accident for obvious reasons.

Henry Ford III

As far as I can see (and open to correction) there are 2 issues.

1/. License. 2 possible offences. Driving without a valid license. Driving unaccompanied.

2/. Insurance. Insurer will not be happy - they've been lied to. In the event of a claim any 3rd party damages would be paid, but insurer /will seek to recover them from policyholder. Fire, theft and/or comp? Nah.

Marcusm

coylemj wrote: »

When you take out a policy for the first time, they want to see your full licence because they charge less if you have passed the test and they load the premium if you only have a learner permit. They asked you how many years you are driving as part of risk profiling.

Once you have the policy in place they couldn't give a toss if your licence is expired or not, it has no effect on insurance cover.

It does for some insurers who try to clawback based on small print in the contract that you must have a full licence or must not drive unaccompanied etc etc. it shoud not leave the driver open to a charge that they are driving while uninsured but for those companies which do include such clauses it leaves open the option to sue the policyholder for the money they had to pay out. Of course if a policyholder lies to obtain the policy there is a separate RTA offence.

I'm not suggesting this is all companies or all policies but I have seen it in the policy documents of some large ones.

coylemj

Henry Ford III wrote: »

2/. Insurance. Insurer will not be happy - they've been lied to.

I've asked this before and am still waiting for an answer from RootX, I'll repeat the question to you..

specifically what lie has been told to the insurance company?

coylemj

RootX wrote: »

Now, I went through my policy, which states the following(among others):

b) "You declare that the following statements and particulars are accurate, true and complete:
1. hold a current Provisional Irish License, or a Full Irish or EU Driving License"

The policy document you consulted is seriously out of date if it mentions a provisional licence which doesn't exist any more.

RootX

coylemj wrote: »

The policy document you consulted is seriously out of date if it mentions a provisional licence which doesn't exist any more.

It's 4 months old, 123.ie(rsa).

areyawell

The insurance companies these days don't know if you even have a license. If stopped by a Garda and he summons you its 2 penalty points and a fine.

Henry Ford III

coylemj wrote: »

I've asked this before and am still waiting for an answer from RootX, I'll repeat the question to you..

specifically what lie has been told to the insurance company?

Either:

Insured had a license at proposal stage

or

Insured failed to disclose that he/she no longer held a valid license at renewal.

I'd imagine both will jeopardise any cover beyond 3rd party.

Marcusm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Either:

Insured had a license at proposal stage

or

Insured failed to disclose that he/she no longer held a valid license at renewal.

I'd imagine both will jeopardise any cover beyond 3rd party.

Additionally, he should be concerned with s64 RTA 1961 which makes it an offence to knowingly male misstatements in obtaining insurance. Ignorance of the position in this case may prove an adequate defence!

coylemj

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Either:

Insured had a license at proposal stage

Which I'm sure he did.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

or

Insured failed to disclose that he/she no longer held a valid license at renewal.

Where does it say that you need to tell your insurance company at renewal time if your licence has expired?

You need to tell your insurance company if you have accumulated a certain number of points or if there is a pending prosecution for any motoring offence other than parking, they do not ask you to declare if your licence has expired, at renewal time or any other time.

coylemj

Marcusm wrote: »

Additionally, he should be concerned with s64 RTA 1961 which makes it an offence to knowingly male misstatements in obtaining insurance. Ignorance of the position in this case may prove an adequate defence!

What misstatement are you suggesting he made when taking out the policy? If they wanted to establish that he did have a licence, they can ask to see it, otherwise if it's a learner permit they don't really care, as long as he isn't disqualified.

Marcusm

coylemj wrote: »

Which I'm sure he did.



Where does it say that you need to tell your insurance company at renewal time if your licence has expired?

You need to tell your insurance company if you have accumulated a certain number of points or if there is a pending prosecution for any motoring offence other than parking, they do not ask you to declare if your licence has expired, at renewal time or any other time.

The renewal notice shoud include all the relevant details and one of the statements will exhort the policyholder to review them for accuracy and to notify any errors to the insurer prior to renewal of the policy. Generally each ear I'll check that they have added the extra year's NCB, adjust te car value and sense check the annual mileage. Obviously if I no longer hold the relevant licence/permit I need to adjust this as well.

Get out one o f your renewal packs and have a goosey gander.

Remember the first rule of insurance is deny all claims; makes sense to check all relevant details to give them as little opportunity as possible.

coylemj

Marcusm wrote: »

The renewal notice shoud include all the relevant details

Are you making this up as you go along? It should include all the relevant details - what details? Like that I'm still alive, that I still own a car?

Marcusm wrote: »

Obviously if I no longer hold the relevant licence/permit I need to adjust this as well.

Adjust what?

Marcusm wrote: »

Get out one of your renewal packs and have a goosey gander.

I've a better idea, you get out out your last renewal and tell me where it says that you need to tell them if your licence has simply expired.

I challenged you to come up with this and your reply is to tell me to look up my last renewal. I'm not making the claim, you are so produce the facts.

Marcusm

Sorry that I've so obviously irritated you; as it happens, I've just had to renew (actually, not renew but choose another insurer) on one of my cars. The renewal pack consisted of 4principal docs

Cover letter
Motor policy schedule
Motor renewal confirmation
Motor insurance cert(since returned as I didn't renew)

Cover letter exhorts me to "Please check all your details carefully". motor renewal confirmation includes the licence details for insured (in my case full licence held for 4 years). Included immediately there under is a statement entitled a "declaration"which states "I agree that the statements made by me, which are set out above and belw are true ad correct to the best of my knowledge and belief and will be the basis of the Contract between the subscribing insurers and myself."

Not all insurers are the same and I made it clear that I was not speaking of all insurers but I am one of those bizarre type of people who read these things.

Henry Ford III

coylemj wrote: »

.....Where does it say that you need to tell your insurance company at renewal time if your licence has expired?

You need to tell your insurance company if you have accumulated a certain number of points or if there is a pending prosecution for any motoring offence other than parking, they do not ask you to declare if your licence has expired, at renewal time or any other time.

Failure to disclose a long expired license might well be a "material" issue in the assessment of the risk.

It doesn't have to ask for the info. specifically, as the concept of uberrimae fides applies.