Very old Guinness barrel- need a valuation

slipultura

Hi all, my Father owns a very old antique Guinness Barrel. I am unsure of its age as I haven't been able to find one old enough to compare it to. I have attached a few pictures of the barrel itself, if anyone out there can advise me on rarity / value or just with any details about these barrels at all. My Dad is looking to sell it, but it would be handy to know how much he should be looking for.

Thanks in advance !

Degsy

Firstly its not a barrell its a Cask..a barrell is a unit of measurement amounting to 32 gallons.:)

No idea how old it is but these normally retail for around 50-100 euro.

Judgement Day

€50-€100 but it really depends on whether you can find a buyer.

You could try emailing either of these auctioneers with a pic - it doesn't matter if they aren't near you as they will still be able to give you an idea on price. You could also try putting on Adverts.ie with a high asking price and be prepared to haggle.

Oliver Usher Auctions,
John Street, Kells, Co.Meath
Tel: (046) 924 1097 or (086) 170 6767
Email: oliverusher@ireland.com

Purcell Auctioneers,
Green Street, Birr, Co.Offaly
Tel: (057) 91 20270

Degsy

Judgement Day wrote: »

€50-€100 but it really depends on whether you can find a buyer.

You could try emailing either of these auctioneers with a pic - it doesn't matter if they aren't near you as they will still be able to give you an idea on price. You could also try putting on Adverts.ie with a high asking price and be prepared to haggle.

Oliver Usher Auctions,
John Street, Kells, Co.Meath
Tel: (046) 924 1097 or (086) 170 6767
Email: oliverusher@ireland.com

Purcell Auctioneers,
Green Street, Birr, Co.Offaly
Tel: (057) 91 20270

I wouldnt waste time getting in touch with an auctioneer..if its not a high valuer item the chances are they wont even reply.

Here's a few on adverts.ie

If you go the adverts.ie route be prepared to have your head wrecked with time wasters and people offering stupid money and then not turning up.

slipultura

Degsy wrote: »

I wouldnt waste time getting in touch with an auctioneer..if its not a high valuer item the chances are they wont even reply.

Here's a few on adverts.ie

If you go the adverts.ie route be prepared to have your head wrecked with time wasters and people offering stupid money and then not turning up.

Thanks for the reply, I already have an ad on adverts.ie , only 2 comments so far and none of importance. I took a look at that whiskey barrel advert, it's handy as an example however my Fathers barrel is in much better condition and of course is Guinness. As for it's value, I have no idea how much it is worth. I know it is at the very least 25 years old but for all I know it could be up to 80.

Degsy

slipultura wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I already have an ad on adverts.ie , only 2 comments so far and none of importance. I took a look at that whiskey barrel advert, it's handy as an example however my Fathers barrel is in much better condition and of course is Guinness. As for it's value, I have no idea how much it is worth. I know it is at the very least 25 years old but for all I know it could be up to 80.

Well it is a nice example but they were made in the hundreds of thousands and most people these days wouodnt have the space to store somethinng like that.

Basically its only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it,unfortunately adverts.ie doesnt censure people for time wasting or taking the piss.

slipultura

Judgement Day wrote: »

€50-€100 but it really depends on whether you can find a buyer.

You could try emailing either of these auctioneers with a pic - it doesn't matter if they aren't near you as they will still be able to give you an idea on price. You could also try putting on Adverts.ie with a high asking price and be prepared to haggle.

Oliver Usher Auctions,
John Street, Kells, Co.Meath
Tel: (046) 924 1097 or (086) 170 6767
Email: oliverusher@ireland.com

Purcell Auctioneers,
Green Street, Birr, Co.Offaly
Tel: (057) 91 20270

Thanks for the reply. I emailed Oliver Usher Auctions, just waiting on a reply.
Cheers

coylemj

slipultura wrote: »

I know it is at the very least 25 years old but for all I know it could be up to 80.

According to this document, the last wooden cask was filled in St. James Gate in March 1963. I'm not sure where it was delivered to because I don't ever remember wooden Guinness barrels in use in pubs down the country in the early 60s. I remember the first generation of aluminium kegs, they were nicknamed the 'iron lung' and had two raised ridges around the sides so that they could be rolled easily along the ground in a straight line.

It's possible that the metal kegs were first sent down the country as there would have been less waste from leakage on long journeys compared to wooden casks so maybe Dublin was the last stronghold of the wooden casks.

Technically your cask looks like a firkin which had a 6 gallon capacity. The current kegs delivered to pubs contains 11 1/4 gallons or 90 pints.

www.guinness-storehouse.com/en/docs/Coopering_Process.pdf

Degsy

I'm only guessing here but i have a feeling it dates from the 1950's.

coylemj

Degsy wrote: »

I'm only guessing here but i have a feeling it dates from the 1950's.

If they were numbered consecutively starting in 1759 then I'd say it's a lot older than that based on the number (70,073) branded into the top.

Degsy

coylemj wrote: »

If they were numbered consecutively starting in 1759 then I'd say it's a lot older than that based on the number (70,073) branded into the top.

Twas only a guess....how were they numbered though? Any ideas as to its age?

coylemj

Degsy wrote: »

Twas only a guess....how were they numbered though? Any ideas as to its age?

I guess they must have been numbered consecutively but when they started putting numbers on the casks is anybody's guess - a bit of research for someone to take on but not me I'm afraid!

Degsy

Maybe somebody on here would know..
http://www.guinntiques.com/

slipultura

Thank you all for your replies. My mission at the moment is to find out when Guinness started branding Casks. Will be back to this as soon as I find out !

coylemj

This might puts things in context in terms of rarity value...

slipultura

coylemj wrote: »

This might puts things in context in terms of rarity value...

Does that photo have anything to do with Guinness casks? Like to keep this as on topic as possible. That photo is from many years ago, most of those barrels probably don't even exist anymore. If you are trying to imply that it is not rare, just try find another. Even google images can't help. My point is I cannot find one old enough to compare it to (meaning there is a very good chance it is rare)

Degsy

slipultura wrote: »

Does that photo have anything to do with Guinness casks? Like to keep this as on topic as possible. That photo is from many years ago, most of those barrels probably don't even exist anymore. If you are trying to imply that it is not rare, just try find another. Even google images can't help. My point is I cannot find one old enough to compare it to (meaning there is a very good chance it is rare)

:rolleyes:

slipultura

Degsy wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Is there a point to that?

:rolleyes:

coylemj

This is the first metal keg, nicknamed the 'iron lung' which replaced the wooden casks.

http://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/guinness-keg/1328713

In the pub that barrel was stood on one end, the gas line was tapped into the top hole and the beer line into the bottom hole. There was no top or bottom, the two holes were the same size. The newer cylindrical (straight sides) keg which came along in the late 60s had a single tapping head to which the gas and beer lines are connected, it involves a pipe running from the head to the bottom to draw out the beer, same as an aerosol can.

A legal note on selling metal Guinness kegs: the brewery maintained and asserted (in trade magazines and even the Garda Review) ownership of these kegs, they were never sold as scrap so any intact metal keg is still the property of Arthur Guinness. Unserviceable kegs are melted down to make new kegs.

slipultura

coylemj wrote: »

This is the first metal keg, nicknamed the 'iron lung' which replaced the wooden casks.

http://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/guinness-keg/1328713

In the pub that barrel was stood on one end, the gas line was tapped into the top hole and the beer line into the bottom hole. There was no top or bottom, the two holes were the same size. The newer cylindrical (straight sides) keg which came along in the late 60s had a single tapping head to which the gas and beer lines are connected, it involves a pipe running from the head to the bottom to draw out the beer, same as an aerosol can.

A legal note on selling metal Guinness kegs: the brewery maintained and asserted (in trade magazines and even the Garda Review) ownership of these kegs, they were never sold as scrap so any intact metal keg is still the property of Arthur Guinness.

Really? Hmm that's good to know. Haven't come across any metal kegs myself, that's probably the reason. You really do have the best info on the cask, cheers again. I have been trying all day to find out the year that barrels started to be numbered but so far no luck. Somebody out there must know!

I also emailed an auctioneer from Meath, unfortunately he didn't exactly help with my age question, just gave me a date that he could auction it. I'd much rather know the value in advance ( as would my Father )

NiThigim

"They made 34,000 new casks per year around 1900, and broke up about 9,000 whilst maintaining 100,000. From 1871 onwards, each cask had a unique 6 digit number branded into its head for use in trade. The numbering system was the hogsheads were numbered from 100,000 to 199,999, the barrels from 200,000 to 299,999, kiderkins 300,000 to 899,999 and firkins 900,00 to 999,999. The population in 1900 was about 320,000 casks of varying sizes, the major ity being hogsheads followed by butts and then kiderkins. They could hold 41 million pints when full and would, if stacked in a pyramid, be as high as the Eiffel Tower."

"The price in London in 1884 for empty casks was quoted in the Brewing Trade Gazette as:
Hogsheads (best) 21s (seconds) 19s
Barrels (best) (seconds) 18s 16s
Kiderkins (best) 12s (seconds) 10s
Firkins (best) (seconds) 7s 6/6d
6 Gallon barrel (best) 6s (seconds) 5/6d"

From: A Bottle of Guinness Please by David Hughes

Bunnyhopper

slipultura wrote: »

Does that photo have anything to do with Guinness casks?

Degsy wrote: »

:rolleyes:

slipultura wrote: »

Is there a point to that?

:rolleyes:

It is a photograph of the cooperage yard in the Guinness brewery. Those are Guinness casks. That's what it has to do with Guinness casks. I think the large number of them was being used to make a point about the rarity of the cask under discussion here. That's it's relevance to the thread. Your point about many of those casks having most probably been lost is, of course, true.

I'd guess that the point to the :rolleyes: was an expression of exasperation at your post giving the impression that you hadn't realized that it is a photograph of the cooperage yard in the Guinness brewery etc. etc.

Hope that helps.

slipultura

NiThigim wrote: »

"They made 34,000 new casks per year around 1900, and broke up about 9,000 whilst maintaining 100,000. From 1871 onwards, each cask had a unique 6 digit number branded into its head for use in trade. The numbering system was the hogsheads were numbered from 100,000 to 199,999, the barrels from 200,000 to 299,999, kiderkins 300,000 to 899,999 and firkins 900,00 to 999,999. The population in 1900 was about 320,000 casks of varying sizes, the major ity being hogsheads followed by butts and then kiderkins. They could hold 41 million pints when full and would, if stacked in a pyramid, be as high as the Eiffel Tower."

"The price in London in 1884 for empty casks was quoted in the Brewing Trade Gazette as:
Hogsheads (best) 21s (seconds) 19s
Barrels (best) (seconds) 18s 16s
Kiderkins (best) 12s (seconds) 10s
Firkins (best) (seconds) 7s 6/6d
6 Gallon barrel (best) 6s (seconds) 5/6d"

From: A Bottle of Guinness Please by David Hughes

Wow, thanks a lot for the info. I was told my barrel was a firkin , I guess its a Kilderkin judging by the numbering on top. I'm afraid I'm not really any closer to figuring out it's age though. Thanks for the reply, it's much appreciated.

slipultura

Bunnyhopper wrote: »

It is a photograph of the cooperage yard in the Guinness brewery. Those are Guinness casks. That's what it has to do with Guinness casks. I think the large number of them was being used to make a point about the rarity of the cask under discussion here. That's it's relevance to the thread. Your point about many of those casks having most probably been lost is, of course, true.

I'd guess that the point to the :rolleyes: was an expression of exasperation at your post giving the impression that you hadn't realized that it is a photograph of the cooperage yard in the Guinness brewery etc. etc.

Hope that helps.

Thank you forum batman. Aren't you needed somewhere else? The picture is quite old, as I already said. Just because their are plenty of barrels in the photo doesn't mean there are loads around these days. So on the rarity side of things the pic doesn't prove too much.

I'd appreciate only helpful posts from helpful people please.

Thanks to everyone who has answered thoughtfully, all your suggestions are much appreciated.

Degsy

Speaking personally,i hate it when people show up here demanding to know "what's it worth" or "how much money should i ask for" in relation to items.

If you care so desperatly about turning a buck,sell the damn thing and stop being rude.

coylemj

Degsy wrote: »

Speaking personally,i hate it when people show up here demanding to know "what's it worth" or "how much money should i ask for" in relation to items.

If you care so desperatly about turning a buck,sell the damn thing and stop being rude.

+1 OP you are being aggressive and rude. I agree with everything Bunnyhopper said above, he was spot on. I just couldn't be bothered to reply to your snotty comments.

Dr Strange

slipultura wrote: »

Thank you forum batman. Aren't you needed somewhere else?

Tone it down, please. No need to start attacking a poster. It's against boards.ie rules in any case.

slipultura

God , for fully grown men you's sound like a load of bitches, good luck with that.

Dr Strange

slipultura banned for 5 days from this forum for insulting/attacking other forum members.

Einhard

slipultura wrote: »

God , for fully grown men you's sound like a load of bitches, good luck with that.

Good luck with finding what you're looking for when you abuse people who take time out to help you.

Degsy

Einhard wrote: »

Good luck with finding what you're looking for when you abuse people who take time out to help you.

All he was ever looking for was money.

It really galls me people asking "Is it worth anything?" and the getting all huffy when they find its *not* worth the thousands of quid they were expecting

Dr Strange

Degsy wrote: »

All he was ever looking for was money.

It really galls me people asking "Is it worth anything?" and the getting all huffy when they find its *not* worth the thousands of quid they were expecting

Just to point out though, Degsy, the forum may be used to query a particular item's price/value/etc. We actually encourage that. However, I agree with your second part. There is no need to be uncivil or rude if people discuss your particular item/query/etc.

I'll leave this thread open for a couple of hours to see if anyone else has something to say about Guinness-related casks and if not I'll close it as the OP won't be joining us for a couple of days. If there is genuine interest in leaving this thread open PM me and I'll consider it.

coylemj

I'm not adding any more info because the OP can still read the forum if they access boards.ie while logged off so I vote that the thread be closed and the barrel cask in question be filled with sand and fired into the Irish Sea from one of the canons on the East Pier in Dun Laoghaire.

Blade

Degsy wrote: »

It really galls me people asking "Is it worth anything?" and the getting all huffy when they find its *not* worth the thousands of quid they were expecting

Last year some guy asked about the value of some postal orders he had. When he didn't get a response on the thread he decided to PM me with the same question. After describing them to me I told him they weren't of any value worth talking about. He then replied to me with a snotty message telling me I hadn't a clue because he was offered 18 grand for his 5 postal orders. I needn't tell you how I responded to him in private, but here's what I said in public:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74457557&postcount=15