Speed Traps Location Rules

silkcut007

Hi, I hope I have the correct area to put this.
Are there rules that Gardai have to abide by as to where they locate them sleves when mounting a speed trap?
For example if they park on private land such as a gateway to a house and catch someone speeding there, can the speeding charge be thrown out?
If a patrol car is parked on the verge of slip road onto a motorway pointing speed gun at outgoing traffic on motorway, so you would not see them until in rearview mirror, is it required that the speed trap be visible to oncoming motorists or is it all fair game?

Please if we can avoid the arguments of wrong and right and people should or should not be speeding, it is just a question. I would love to be able to read a Garda handbook of can / cannot do rules

Thanks.

Pappa Charlie

silkcut007 wrote: »

Hi, I hope I have the correct area to put this.
Are there rules that Gardai have to abide by as to where they locate them sleves when mounting a speed trap?
For example if they park on private land such as a gateway to a house and catch someone speeding there, can the speeding charge be thrown out?
If a patrol car is parked on the verge of slip road onto a motorway pointing speed gun at outgoing traffic on motorway, so you would not see them until in rearview mirror, is it required that the speed trap be visible to oncoming motorists or is it all fair game?

Please if we can avoid the arguments of wrong and right and people should or should not be speeding, it is just a question. I would love to be able to read a Garda handbook of can / cannot do rules

Thanks.

The offence takes place on the public road by the driver in the vehicle not in a slipway or gateway by the operator of the speed trap. If you slow down you might have a better chance of seeing them

silkcut007

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The offence takes place on the public road by the driver in the vehicle not in a slipway or gateway by the operator of the speed trap. If you slow down you might have a better chance of seeing them

Ah, ok. So it is irrelevant where the Garda is located when operating a speed trap?

Pat Mustard

silkcut007 wrote: »

Hi, I hope I have the correct area to put this.
For example if they park on private land such as a gateway to a house and catch someone speeding there, can the speeding charge be thrown out?

If the evidence was illegally obtained, then said evidence could be thrown out.

So, if a motorist who was charged with speeding could show that the Garda was trespassing in order to obtain the evidence of speeding, then an argument could be made to throw out that evidence.

Unless there was enough other evidence to secure conviction, then one would think that the motorist could apply to have the case dismissed.

coylemj

silkcut007 wrote: »

Ah, ok. So it is irrelevant where the Garda is located when operating a speed trap?

As long as the car being observed is more or less travelling straight towards the speed detection equipment, where it is located is not significant.

coylemj

The Mustard wrote: »

So, if a motorist who was charged with speeding could show that the Garda was trespassing in order to obtain the evidence of speeding, then an argument could be made to throw out that evidence.

I very much doubt that that type of defence would be entertained in a speeding case. Don't Gardai often apprehend criminals by chasing them through people's gardens and I can't remember anyone getting off on the basis that the Garda was trespassing?

Pat Mustard

coylemj wrote: »

I very much doubt that that type of defence would be entertained in a speeding case.

It's not a defence. It's a rule of evidence.

coylemj

The Mustard wrote: »

It's not a defence. It's a rule of evidence.

Now that's some serious hair splitting :eek:

silkcut007

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The offence takes place on the public road by the driver in the vehicle not in a slipway or gateway by the operator of the speed trap. If you slow down you might have a better chance of seeing them

Thanks for your help Papa Charlie. As I say it was just a question, I drive 1000 km a week and need a nice clean licence.

Just to allay your fears, I have no Penalty points and was not speeding. but I am sure you were not trying to say anything after I tried to avoid right and wrong arguments.

Pat Mustard

coylemj wrote: »

I very much doubt that that type of defence would be entertained in a speeding case. Don't Gardai often apprehend criminals by chasing them through people's gardens and I can't remember anyone getting off on the basis that the Garda was trespassing?

Illegally obtained evidence is inadmissable, generally.

Do Gardai pursue criminals across private property in order to apprehend them. Yes. But you have desribed an exception to the general rule here.

There is a 'hot pursuit' rule, where evidence can be admitted even where a Garda follows someone into their own home. In general terms, this is limited to situations such as where a drunk driver attempts to get away from a Garda and the Garda follows the drunk. The Garda is in 'hot pursuit'.

If you say that if a Garda obtains evidence illegally and that evidence will not be thrown out, then back it up.

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so. I'm interested in what you'd have to say.

dermot_sheehan

The Mustard wrote: »

If the evidence was illegally obtained, then said evidence could be thrown out.

So, if a motorist who was charged with speeding could show that the Garda was trespassing in order to obtain the evidence of speeding, then an argument could be made to throw out that evidence.

Unless there was enough other evidence to secure conviction, then one would think that the motorist could apply to have the case dismissed.

Perhaps if the motorist happened to own the land or driveway that the speeding van was parked on in such a situation, they might be successful.

Otherwise it's an argument of jus terti, you are arguing the rights of a third party, because a landowner's property rights have been violated doesn't mean the criminal charge against you must be dismissed.


A gateway to a house isn't necessary private land in any case and may be subject to the public road's public right of way. It's an offence to obstruct a vehicle entrance to private land from the public road, but the gardai are exempt.

Pat Mustard

coylemj wrote: »

Now that's some serious hair splitting :eek:

Agreed.

But any fella who tries to get off speeding on the basis of a Garda being parked in a private driveway is a hair-splitter in any man's language.

Pappa Charlie

The Mustard wrote: »

It's not a defence. It's a rule of evidence.

Most people are only too happy to allow the Gardai to park at these locations as they benefit from the reduced speed at the location in many cases the people have requested a garda speed trap at the location. Consent is rarely a problem but there is always the exception and if it is a problem they just move on to another location nearby.

Pat Mustard

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

Perhaps if the motorist happened to own the land or driveway that the speeding van was parked on in such a situation, they might be successful.

Otherwise it's an argument of jus terti, you are arguing the rights of a third party, because a landowner's property rights have been violated doesn't mean the criminal charge against you must be dismissed.


A gateway to a house isn't necessary private land in any case and may be subject to the public road's public right of way. It's an offence to obstruct a vehicle entrance to private land from the public road, but the gardai are exempt.

I'm gonna go with this for an answer so.

coylemj

The Mustard wrote: »

Illegally obtained evidence is inadmissable, generally.

Do Gardai pursue criminals across private property in order to apprehend them. Yes. But you have desribed an exception to the general rule here.

There is a 'hot pursuit' rule, where evidence can be admitted even where a Garda follows someone into their own home. In general terms, this is limited to situations such as where a drunk driver attempts to get away from a Garda and the Garda follows the drunk. The Garda is in 'hot pursuit'.

If you say that if a Garda obtains evidence illegally and that evidence will not be thrown out, then back it up.

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so. I'm interested in what you'd have to say.

By the standards laid down in O'Brien (1964), as the defendant's constitutional rights were not deliberately infringed, I cannot see how can he could use the fact that the Gardai were trespassing on the property of a third party to get off the charge.

Pat Mustard

coylemj wrote: »

By the standards laid down in O'Brien (1964), as the defendant's constitutional rights were not deliberately infringed, I cannot see how can he could use the fact that the Gardai were trespassing on the property of a third party to get off the charge.

I stand corrected.

234

The Mustard wrote: »

Illegally obtained evidence is inadmissable, generally.

No, it's admissible at the discretion of the trial judge where the prejudicial effect does not outweigh the probative value.

Unconstitutionally obtained evidence is generally inadmissible.