Encroachment onto publicly owned (CIE) lands

dowlingm

Spotted on IRN today - this charming appropriation of adjoining public property on the Youghal-Midleton line back in April 2009.

EDIT: the original IRN post referred to similar activity going on on the New Ross line. If metal is so bloody valuable to scrap merchants and even used ballast can be coveted why isn't IE getting there first??

davidlacey

IE doesn't recycle or know what that means for that matter.
Was very interesting to see that on google maps, is that against the law? and basically IE couldn't be pushed to go through the courts?

CrowdedHouse

Ah shur someone might as well make use of it

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Spotted on IRN today - this charming appropriation of adjoining public property on the Youghal-Midleton line back in April 2009.

EDIT: the original IRN post referred to similar activity going on on the New Ross line. If metal is so bloody valuable to scrap merchants and even used ballast can be coveted why isn't IE getting there first??

To be fair in the example you give it looks like they have not planted the hedge on the line but next to it and while they have covered the area with cut stone this is easily sorted out if the line was to reopen even at short notice:D

dowlingm

foggy_lad wrote: »

this is easily sorted out if the line was to reopen even at short notice:D

you have great faith in our legal system...

foggy_lad

I meant the covering of cut stone could be removed from the tracked easily enough:D

charlemont

Shocking, But have a look at any disused or abandoned lines here and you will see the land grab, Its as if its deliberately done to prevent the line ever being used.

end of the road

unless the land which these railways once were has specifically been sold by CIE it should be treated as a right of way for the railway. this means if reopening did happen the diggers could move in to remove any obstructions and the people who put those obstructions there whether it be an extentian of their gardens or whatever would be able to do nothing about it, the squatters rights or whatever law that deals with such things should be changed to amend this so their would be no loop holes.

gobnaitolunacy

charlemont wrote: »

Shocking, But have a look at any disused or abandoned lines here and you will see the land grab, Its as if its deliberately done to prevent the line ever being used.

Not deliberate, more like the 'cute hoorism' referred to in IRN. Opportunism.

AFAIK squatters rights apply on land which is state land and has been occupied for 30 years.

charlemont

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Not deliberate, more like the 'cute hoorism' referred to in IRN. Opportunism.

AFAIK squatters rights apply on land which is state land and has been occupied for 30 years.

Yep, That's it alright.

This happened in Carrickmines, as can be seen on Eiretrains. The extension was knocked when the line was rebuilt for Luas.

Losty Dublin

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

AFAIK squatters rights apply on land which is state land and has been occupied for 30 years.

But the land is still occupied by a railway which hasn't been legally abandoned, so squatting in the common law sense may not be able to be applied here, even if the line is unused. It would be interesting to see a adversarial possession of a line tested in court but it would appear that the law may favour the railway or papered owner in such a case.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/council-wins-landmark-railway-walk-ruling/

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/640c5261fb7e907f80257367003c3e01?OpenDocument

Itssoeasy

I would have thought that as happened with the house on the Midleton line that IR still own the rail corridor unless stated otherwise and building over the trackbed would be illegal. If it ever reopened the section from Midleton to youghal there is a situation where someone hasnt built over the line but stores stuff on the line and live in the gatekeepers house and how that would work I'm not sure.

Victor

Karsini wrote: »

This happened in Carrickmines, as can be seen on Eiretrains. The extension was knocked when the line was rebuilt for Luas.

Much of the Harcourt Street line was sold off.

corktina

AS far as I know, to claim Squatters Rights you have to have had exclusive use of the land for the relevant period. All CIE need to do is come through it doing some maintenace work to the drains or fences and the clock is re-started...

steamengine

end of the road wrote: »

unless the land which these railways once were has specifically been sold by CIE it should be treated as a right of way for the railway. this means if reopening did happen the diggers could move in to remove any obstructions and the people who put those obstructions there whether it be an extentian of their gardens or whatever would be able to do nothing about it, the squatters rights or whatever law that deals with such things should be changed to amend this so their would be no loop holes.

In the light of the revival of Cork-Midleton, Harcourt St. Line, Dunboyne / M3 Parkway it would look like an order to protect alignments for a 100 years wouldn't go amiss. Why should the public have to pay twice through taxes to re-instate part of a railway alignment that has been originally funded by their ancestors, through rates in many instances ? These old alignments belong to the state, are in the charge of a semi-state company and in theory belong to the citizens of the state.

No one person or sectional interest should be granted ownership via adverse possession after 12 years, as an obstruction at any given point destroys the purpose of the entire route, and its potential use for the future - even as a walking or cycling route. No more than a person would walk into a hardware shop to order ten metres of chain off a fifty metre reel and specify that they wanted it cut from the middle point on the reel.

dowlingm

corktina wrote: »

All CIE need to do is come through it doing some maintenace work to the drains or fences and the clock is re-started...

But they have to want to do that...

corktina

well in that case all redundant state owned land should be transferred to a body (NAMA perhaps?) with the remit to protect and develop that land.

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

well in that case all redundant state owned land should be transferred to a body (NAMA perhaps?) with the remit to protect and develop that land.

Not all state land, just disused railway alignments so that the original routes are protected in their entirety, in case they will be required for future public transport usage. Back in the sixties, I doubt if many people, as they motored past the Milltown viaduct (Harcourt St. line) would have thought 40 years on trams would be running over it !!! Alternatively a greenway would also fit in with the original purpose but mass public transport should take priority. An Taisce would be a better choice IMO.

dowlingm

corktina wrote: »

well in that case all redundant state owned land should be transferred to a body (NAMA perhaps?) with the remit to protect and develop that land.

Agreed. OPW I think. At least the State could then make capital provision for development without it being considered State aid and passengers wouldn`t be paying towards weed covered alignments and rusty disused crossing gates.

Losty Dublin

Land can't be legally transferred over to other bodies for greenway as easily as people make out. When land is purchased for a line or road, it's CPO will dictate that the land is needed for the railway or road specified in it's planning order. Part of the condition of purchase is that specific conditions are usually made for the lands release should the right of way required for it's intended use end. In the case of a abandoned line this happens by way of an option to purchase by the owner of adjacent land, either by way of the original act that created the lines powers originally or under the 1950 Transport Act. This act allowed for what were then private companies the option of abandonment via Dail Eireann of lame duck line under economic grounds, something that was virtually impossible under the older laws.

However, a line must firstly be formally abandoned and it's right of way as per the relevant law extinguished before land can be sold on or reused for alternative means. Although it is a Semi State company, CIE owns the land as a private company and with it, operating rights and powers that came with it. To dispose of it's lines is very much a legal minefield which has resulted in many poorly used lines lasting far longer than they should have over the years.

Victor

NAMA isn't a state agency - it is part owned by Bank of Ireland and AIB to keep it off the books.

As I understand it, councils have first call on railway land if it is being disposed of.

Losty Dublin

Victor wrote: »

NAMA isn't a state agency - it is part owned by Bank of Ireland and AIB to keep it off the books.

Not quite, it's a Statutory Body and reports to cabinet but it's OT for us.

Victor wrote: »

As I understand it, councils have first call on railway land if it is being disposed of.

No, unless provided for otherwise in it's formation act the adjoining landowners have first call under Law, after which follows the local council and hence public sale. There are tracts of land from long abandoned lines that CIE have on their books which have yet to be sold of, mainly due to the land being of little use to locals or where the land is a liability to anybody who cares to buy it; e.g. sea embankments, old bridges, etc .

dowlingm

I suspect there could be a way around it - if OPW or NRA were certified by RSC as a Railway Operator perhaps? It would probably require a couple of hires which the media would love ("OPW hires Chief Railway Engineer to supervise closed lines") but would outsource everything not required by statute.

steamengine

Mentioning OPW reminds one of how they took charge of the canals, previously in the care of CIE. A missing element would appear to be an equivalent railway association to IWAI (Inland Waterways Association of Ireland) whereby boating enthusiasts and concerned members of the public got involved in the business of preserving canals for the future. When it comes to railways in this country Joe Public doesn't appear to have a say, or worse still doesn't appear to be in the slightest bit concerned. Unfortunately supporters of the railway system don't appear to have much of a say either.

foggy_lad

Karsini wrote: »

This happened in Carrickmines, as can be seen on Eiretrains. The extension was knocked when the line was rebuilt for Luas.

From the pictures it looks more likely that the house was owned by CIE or bought from the owner or some agreement entered into with the owner to facilitate the Luas works, Unless there is clear evidence that the person seen at the house was Squatting there?

Eiretrains

foggy_lad wrote: »

From the pictures it looks more likely that the house was owned by CIE or bought from the owner or some agreement entered into with the owner to facilitate the Luas works, Unless there is clear evidence that the person seen at the house was Squatting there?

The think the house was indeed in private ownership like a lot of abandoned lines. It was subsequently bought to make way for the Luas, with the owners been accommodated elsewhere.