House Guarantee - how many years?

PresidentMike

Hi,

I'm just wondering if there is a time frame where it is acceptable to ask the builder to repair this or that.

I bought my house as new build 3 years ago. It belongs to an estate that was built and sold by the builder.

We had a few problems in the first year and we called the builder and he always send someone to fix them.

Now, the years have passed and we found other problems or the same problems (that weren't fixed properly...). My wife doesn't want to "upset" the builder since she thinks we are not entitled to more repairs...

My question is, legally, what is the period that we are entitled to ask for these type of repairs to be fixed?

Let me add that I'm not talking about structural defects but simpler things like a leak, a window that doesn't close, an extract fan that it's not connected to outside, etc.

Thanks.

kkelliher

Legally the builder is responsible for faults in his work for 6 years or 12 years if the contract was sealed.

The Building contract will hold him responsible for minor defects for 12 months ie snagging items.

DOCARCH

From the OP's post, I would assume they did not have a (building) contract with the builder.

engineermike

Hi,
what sort of issues ? - if you have some sort of bond such as homebond or premier bond you might have recourse. A lot depends on the types of problems your having.
mike f

Max Moment

Unfortunately once you sign off your snag list for a new build house (bought as you describe and not under a building contract) the Builder is no longer liable or has any responsibility to attend to minor items.

I think the fact he has done this for a year already is over and above what he should have done and I think you have been very lucky as many others wouldn't.

The only way you could get something done is if there is a structural defect within 10 years of the property being fully built (not from when you bought it). Also, he is liable for any water penetration due to weather for 5 years (again from time of completion).

This all depends of course if you are covered by homebond or premier. But personally these 'Guarantees' are not worth the paper they are written on.

kkelliher

Max Moment wrote: »

Also, he is liable for any water penetration due to weather for 5 years (again from time of completion

5 years? Should this not be 6?

engineermike

Hi
6 years would be the build control enforcement window against the dev / builder. After the 6 years has elapsed the owner would be served with enforcement.
The nature of the issues would be key, if causal issue relates to the 'structure' or building envelope / roof etc . - you may have recourse with premier or homebond. Although It can be a costly process to claim on these bonds with no recovery of your professional fees etc. as part of proving the claim.
If the issues are small, non structural - perhaps the best course of action is to get in a reputable builder and pay to resolve them once and for all - get a number of quotes and some advice from tradespeople.
Mike F

PresidentMike

The issues are not structural, they are small issues and some of them (accordding to a friend of mine) are related with (non) compliance with building regulations.

There was no building contract, so I guess the 5/6 years some of you mention do not work here...

Max Moment

Unfortunately once you sign off your snag list for a new build house (bought as you describe and not under a building contract) the Builder is no longer liable or has any responsibility to attend to minor items.

I am shocked! :eek:
Yes, we did sign off a snag list but these problems were only noticed after that!

PresidentMike

engineermike wrote: »

Hi
6 years would be the build control enforcement window against the dev / builder.

Mike,
Could you direct me to a website with more information about this?

PresidentMike

engineermike wrote: »

After the 6 years has elapsed the owner would be served with enforcement.

Let's see if I understand this well...
If there is non-compliance with Building Regulations before the 6 years period the builder is the one that is responsible. After the 6 years it is ME (the owner) :eek: who is responsible??

Is this right??

engineermike

Hi President :

See -
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0003/index.html

And

http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/BuildingStandards/

You will find building control officer in most counties swamped with work, and usually willing to give advice over the phone to make sure their work load doesn't increase.
Just give them an outline of the case / problem & get the county build control officers opinion.
Mike F

DOCARCH

@ PresidentMike, can you list the items you feel are Building Regulations issues? Big difference between snags and non-compliance!

If there are legitimate Building Regulation issues, then I would certainly have these listed (possibly/probably by a professional), sent to the builder and ask him to remedy. You could also mention (I would not say threaten) that if they are not remedied you will be in contact with Building Control.

BTW, I am no builder lover!

kkelliher

6 years is the staute of limitations for instigating legal proceedings against anyone for breech of contract (contract does not have to be in writing, if someone built a house for your then there was an implied contract as you paid he built and there was therefore performance on btoh sides).

Its 12 years for a sealed contract which would be in writing and have a company seal on the contract

Its 2 years for personal injury

This has nothing to do with snagging. This is the law of the land as they say

PresidentMike

DOCARCH wrote: »

@ PresidentMike, can you list the items you feel are Building Regulations issues? Big difference between snags and non-compliance!

• The extract fan from the bath is not connected to ouside (it ends up in the attic space).

• The other extract fan (from the shower) is piped to outside but it is a very long pipe (over 3 meters) and it's laid horizontally for most of the distance. This has been already "fixed" because we complained about water inside the pipe and the exhaustor not exhausting properly. The builder insulated the pipe, I haven't inspected the pipe since but the extraction, as you can imagine, is not great...

• There is a void that goes up to the roof. The walls that surround this void face the attic space. It seems there is something with the build up of these walls that is not correct and in the future we may have problems with condensation. From the attic we have a plastic fim> insulation> plasterboard> void. My friend told me the plastic should be between insulation and plasterboard...?

• There is often a bad smell coming from pipes (wash machine, kitchen sink and shower). The smell is quite strong and it seems like the sewage is not properly ventilated...?

• The thickness of the attic insulation (approx. 100mm) seems too small for the time the house was built...

DOCARCH

kkelliher wrote: »

6 years is the staute of limitations for instigating legal proceedings against anyone for breech of contract (contract does not have to be in writing, if someone built a house for your then there was an implied contract as you paid he built and there was therefore performance on btoh sides).

Its 12 years for a sealed contract which would be in writing and have a company seal on the contract

Its 2 years for personal injury

This has nothing to do with snagging. This is the law of the land as they say

Yes, generally agreed, that's all good but is an individual likely to spend the money (on legal fees, etc.) to sue them? I think not! That's probably what the builder relies on at least.

DOCARCH

PresidentMike wrote: »

• The extract fan from the bath is not connected to ouside (it ends up in the attic space).

• The other extract fan (from the shower) is piped to outside but it is a very long pipe (over 3 meters) and it's laid horizontally for most of the distance. This has been already "fixed" because we complained about water inside the pipe and the exhaustor not exhausting properly. The builder insulated the pipe, I haven't inspected the pipe since but the extraction, as you can imagine, is not great...

• There is a void that goes up to the roof. The walls that surround this void face the attic space. It seems there is something with the build up of these walls that is not correct and in the future we may have problems with condensation. From the attic we have a plastic fim> insulation> plasterboard> void. My friend told me the plastic should be between insulation and plasterboard...?

• There is often a bad smell coming from pipes (wash machine, kitchen sink and shower). The smell is quite strong and it seems like the sewage is not properly ventilated...?

• The thickness of the attic insulation (approx. 100mm) seems too small for the time the house was built...

All reasonably valid points I would suggest (except I'm not sure I quite follow the third/middle one).

Why not, as I suggest above, get a professional to double check the above (and see if there are any more issues) and write to the contractor first with the list and see what happens, using Building Regulation compliance (or lack of it) as the stick.

kkelliher

DOCARCH wrote: »

Yes, generally agreed, that's all good but is an individual likely to spend the money (on legal fees, etc.) to sue them? I think not! That's probably what the builder relies on at least.

Given the spate of actions I am involved in currently before the courts I would disagree in general. It appears that at present it is more likely that the builder will buckle before the client.

PresidentMike

I just wanted to conclude and leave this short summary that can be useful to other people.

I bought a new house 4 years ago (in 2008).
A few snags and works that don't comply with Building Regulations were detected and/or are still to be corrected.
I have 3 ways to have my house sorted:
1. Write a letter to the builder stating snags and noncompliant items using Building Regulation compliance (or lack of it) as the stick (as mentioned by DOCARCH)
2. Get in contact with Building Control and write a letter stating the problems and asking for their intervention.
3. Going to the court for breech of contract (as mentioned by kkelliher). (For this I believe I have 6 years for instigating legal proceedings)

I noted the implications of each of the actions above hence the order I gave to the list, since #1 would be the easiest and more likely to cause less trouble to both parties.

I understand that small snags (ie. a window that doesn't close or it's leaking) are difficult to get sorted a this stage (unless option #3 is used) but the window, for example, should have a guarantee (right?). How can I find this? I can't see any brand name on the windows... Should I be complaining to the window company or to the builder?

Thanks for all your help so far.

jblack

In contract 6/12 is the statutory period for instigating proceedings from the date of breach which will usually be either the date of final certification, or from breach/event if after.

However, the contract itself may stipulate a shorter or indeed longer period of liability.

If you pursue a tortious claim then your period will run 6 years from the date the cause of action arises.

muffler

PresidentMike wrote: »

I just wanted to conclude and leave this short summary that can be useful to other people.

I bought a new house a few years ago.

If you want to leave an accurate summary then you really should state the exact number of years

PresidentMike wrote: »

but the window, for example, should have a guarantee (right?). How can I find this? I can't see any brand name on the windows... Should I be complaining to the window company or to the builder/

On this point you should complain to the builder if you bought the house from him. Just to point out that while window suppliers will have you believe they offer a 10 year guarantee they dont. The basic pvc product is guaranteed for that period but all "moving parts" and workmanship is guaranteed for 1 year only.

sydthebeat

did you not purchase the house based on a certificate of compliance provided by the vendors solicitor?

dinglebay

does period of limitation not commence from date of 'reasonable discovery' of problem ?

jblack

dinglebay wrote: »

does period of limitation not commence from date of 'reasonable discovery' of problem ?

that's the UK, Pirelli v Oscar Faber etc.

In Ireland it is the date some damage arises and not the date it is discovered.

engineermike

PresidentMike wrote: »

• The extract fan from the bath is not connected to ouside (it ends up in the attic space).

• The other extract fan (from the shower) is piped to outside but it is a very long pipe (over 3 meters) and it's laid horizontally for most of the distance. This has been already "fixed" because we complained about water inside the pipe and the exhaustor not exhausting properly. The builder insulated the pipe, I haven't inspected the pipe since but the extraction, as you can imagine, is not great...

• There is a void that goes up to the roof. The walls that surround this void face the attic space. It seems there is something with the build up of these walls that is not correct and in the future we may have problems with condensation. From the attic we have a plastic fim> insulation> plasterboard> void. My friend told me the plastic should be between insulation and plasterboard...?

• There is often a bad smell coming from pipes (wash machine, kitchen sink and shower). The smell is quite strong and it seems like the sewage is not properly ventilated...?

• The thickness of the attic insulation (approx. 100mm) seems too small for the time the house was built...

Hi Presidentmike -
Issues 1,2 & 4 - sound like and easy fix, sub 300 euro to resolve all 3.
the third problem - i'm not sure what you friend is articulating is the issue. A condensation risk analysis is involved to assess the problem ( if any )- you will have high professional costs - in proving & also with out damage - very little recourse.

The 5th problem, 100mm is far 2 low, 300mm is the recommended by the SEAI - but the difficulties in proving that they altered figures to get a specific BER rating - are huge and costly.
Do you know if the home specified more than 100mm ?
If you compare your ber rating as given by the builder - and compare against
the actual using : http://www.seai.ie/your_building/epbd/deap/download/
mike f

PresidentMike

jblack wrote: »

In contract 6/12 is the statutory period for instigating proceedings from the date of breach which will usually be either the date of final certification, or from breach/event if after.

However, the contract itself may stipulate a shorter or indeed longer period of liability.

If you pursue a tortious claim then your period will run 6 years from the date the cause of action arises.

You seem to know about this stuff.
I don't know what is a tortious claim :rolleyes: but it looks like if I decide to follow route 3 I would have 6 years from now and not from the date the sale was agreed.
Anyway, I'm not looking for legal advice here, first because I understand that may be against the forum rules and second because it is unlikely that I will follow that route.

PresidentMike

muffler wrote: »

If you want to leave an accurate summary then you really should state the exact number of years


On this point you should complain to the builder if you bought the house from him. Just to point out that while window suppliers will have you believe they offer a 10 year guarantee they dont. The basic pvc product is guaranteed for that period but all "moving parts" and workmanship is guaranteed for 1 year only.

Thanks, I have edited the post and included exact number of years.

I am somehow surprised with the 1 year guarantee for all "moving parts". In that case there is no point in complaining to the builder because he will just tell me that...

muffler

PresidentMike wrote: »

I am somehow surprised with the 1 year guarantee for all "moving parts". In that case there is no point in complaining to the builder because he will just tell me that...

It's been a while (maybe 3 - 4 years) since I checked the "small print" on the sales agreements but thats the guarantee periods they all worked to.

PresidentMike

sydthebeat wrote: »

did you not purchase the house based on a certificate of compliance provided by the vendors solicitor?

The short answer is 'no'.
The long answer is this. At the time we signed the agreement, etc the solicitor never mentioned the certificate of compliance, I mean never! We were not aware of this and everything seemed ok to us.
A few months after the sale (we had already moved in) and I read somewhere that every house sale should have a certificate of compliance. At the time I thought "well, I'm sure the solicitor must have this with her but she never gave it to us...". So I rang her asking if she had the Cert. of Compliance...She seemed a bit surprised...Her answer was a bit vague...And she said something like I can get you one if you need it but that will have an extra cost... And I said that I didn't need one but I wanted to know if she had one in her files in case I need it...

After this phone call I got the impression the Cert. was something that I wasn't supposed to have with me as part of the sale but the solicitor would have it, in case I need it.

This does not sound right to me but what can I do??

PresidentMike

engineermike wrote: »

The 5th problem, 100mm is far 2 low, 300mm is the recommended by the SEAI - but the difficulties in proving that they altered figures to get a specific BER rating - are huge and costly.
Do you know if the home specified more than 100mm ?
If you compare your ber rating as given by the builder - and compare against
the actual using : http://www.seai.ie/your_building/epbd/deap/download/
mike f

I don't think BER ratings were required in 2008. We certainly never saw one at the time of the purchase.

sydthebeat

PresidentMike wrote: »

The short answer is 'no'.
The long answer is this. At the time we signed the agreement, etc the solicitor never mentioned the certificate of compliance, I mean never! We were not aware of this and everything seemed ok to us.
A few months after the sale (we had already moved in) and I read somewhere that every house sale should have a certificate of compliance. At the time I thought "well, I'm sure the solicitor must have this with her but she never gave it to us...". So I rang her asking if she had the Cert. of Compliance...She seemed a bit surprised...Her answer was a bit vague...And she said something like I can get you one if you need it but that will have an extra cost... And I said that I didn't need one but I wanted to know if she had one in her files in case I need it...

After this phone call I got the impression the Cert. was something that I wasn't supposed to have with me as part of the sale but the solicitor would have it, in case I need it.

This does not sound right to me but what can I do??

i have NEVER heard of a house sale going through without a cert of compliance.
Its required as part of the conveyancing procedure, as far as i understand it.

I wonder did the solicitor act for both you and the seller?

PresidentMike

sydthebeat wrote: »

i have NEVER heard of a house sale going through without a cert of compliance.
Its required as part of the conveyancing procedure, as far as i understand it.

Wow! :eek:
Believe me, we don't have one and we never saw one!
Will I be entitled to ask for one now??

sydthebeat wrote: »

I wonder did the solicitor act for both you and the seller?

No, the builder had a different solicitor.
I can add that my solicitor was working for a VERY well known company. And the builder is also a big company in the region.

sydthebeat

if you go to sell the house now, you will be required to provide a cert of compliance with all planning permissions on it. This will cost you money.

As to whether your "entitled" to it..... thats not for me to say. I think your solicitor dropped the ball on this one.

the reason i brought it up is because if there are non compliance with building regs issues then they should have been seen by the certifying architect / engineer.
The 100mm in the attic would definitely have be seen, as since 2002 a min 200 mm quilt has been required. TGD L 2002
The vent exhausting in the attic is also a building reg non compliance issue, TGD F 2002

the other ventilation and attic void issues are more of a case of bad building IMHO

jblack

sydthebeat wrote: »

i have NEVER heard of a house sale going through without a cert of compliance.
Its required as part of the conveyancing procedure, as far as i understand it.

I wonder did the solicitor act for both you and the seller?

Sales often happen without certs by way General Condition 36 of the contract for sale the vendor warrants that all planning matters are in order. If the purchaser is happy to accept that and the vendor is happy/stupid enough to give it then you can rely on that and sue the vendor where xxxxxxx.

There are lots of other times you won't need an architect's cert. Eg if it's pre 63 or if it's pre 75.

engineermike

sydthebeat wrote: »

i have NEVER heard of a house sale going through without a cert of compliance.
Its required as part of the conveyancing procedure, as far as i understand it.

I wonder did the solicitor act for both you and the seller?

BER requirement - was 2009 (Jan) - but planning app. date (pre 2009) was loop hole for developers that sold in 2008 / 2009 and into early 2010.

The cert. on compliance - sounds like sydthebeat hit the nail on the head, either that or its a inept solicitor. Its a requirement & should have been a component of the sale paperwork.
mike f

Max Moment

PresidentMike wrote: »

• The extract fan from the bath is not connected to ouside (it ends up in the attic space).

• The other extract fan (from the shower) is piped to outside but it is a very long pipe (over 3 meters) and it's laid horizontally for most of the distance. This has been already "fixed" because we complained about water inside the pipe and the exhaustor not exhausting properly. The builder insulated the pipe, I haven't inspected the pipe since but the extraction, as you can imagine, is not great...

• There is a void that goes up to the roof. The walls that surround this void face the attic space. It seems there is something with the build up of these walls that is not correct and in the future we may have problems with condensation. From the attic we have a plastic fim> insulation> plasterboard> void. My friend told me the plastic should be between insulation and plasterboard...?

• There is often a bad smell coming from pipes (wash machine, kitchen sink and shower). The smell is quite strong and it seems like the sewage is not properly ventilated...?

• The thickness of the attic insulation (approx. 100mm) seems too small for the time the house was built...

OP most of these items should have been picked up on a snag list (bar the Wall build up). I am not defending that fact that these items were left incomplete by the Builder, infact it's a disgrace, but whoever did your snag list should also be held accountable as they 'allowed' these items to go unaddressed. These are all very obvious issues which would have been clearly visible and available at snagging time to any competent person.

On the sewage smells, have they always been there? If not, it could just be a maintenance issue with traps drying out etc. Had you approached the Builder previously on these?

Regarding the Wall build up, I do not see how you can question this without understanding the design intent or have seen the construction details / drawings. If this has not caused you any problems to date I would leave well enough alone.

PresidentMike wrote: »

I understand that small snags (ie. a window that doesn't close or it's leaking) are difficult to get sorted a this stage (unless option #3 is used) but the window, for example, should have a guarantee (right?). How can I find this? I can't see any brand name on the windows... Should I be complaining to the window company or to the builder?

The only way you would recourse to approach the Window company to take responsibility is if you had a collateral warranty with the company independent of the Builder. Your 'Guarantee' would have been with the Builder.

I am not trying to sound negative on this OP but other's advice regarding lawsuits, getting Building control involved etc. will cause you hell of a lot in monetary terms and heartache and I think you are better off just attending to these minor issues yourself and close them out. You could spend months 'chasing' these issues down and get no satisfactory outcome.

For example, if you did manage to get the Builder back he could just say 'Ah sure, the extract fans were connected when I handed over the House 3 years ago'. Personally I don't think it's worth the stress but it is up to you.

That is the problem in this country when you buy a new house privately, there is no set defects liability period built into the contract where you could raise and get issues like this addressed by the Builder.

PresidentMike

Max Moment wrote: »

On the sewage smells, have they always been there? If not, it could just be a maintenance issue with traps drying out etc.

How could they have dried out, if the house was never vacant and they have been used continuously??

Max Moment wrote: »

I am not trying to sound negative on this OP but other's advice regarding lawsuits, getting Building control involved etc. will cause you hell of a lot in monetary terms and heartache and I think you are better off just attending to these minor issues yourself and close them out. You could spend months 'chasing' these issues down and get no satisfactory outcome.

Thanks for your advice.
I'm still thinking that there is no harm in trying option #1 as per post #18. The builder has always been helpful enough, he's still trading, he does have other houses yet to sell in my estate and he may be interested in keeping his good reputation...

Max Moment wrote: »

there is no set defects liability period built into the contract

That just about answers my main question!
This is without a doubt a shocking discovery.

sydthebeat

PresidentMike wrote: »

That just about answers my main question!
This is without a doubt a shocking discovery.

not really.

There simply cannot be an open ended defects liability period.

If you commission the build and enter into a contract with a builder, there will be a set defects liability period in the contract.

If you buy a 'first hand' pre built house, you engage someone to carry out a snag list to cover aesthetic defects prior to occupation. You also expect your solicitor to carry out the conveyancing procedure correctly, and insist on a cert of compliance from the vendor.

If you buy a 'second hand' house you get a pre purchase report which comments on the compliance of the build with regulations and with structural stability. You purchase "as seen" based on these reports.

Other than that its 'caveat emptor'

PresidentMike

sydthebeat wrote: »

If you buy a 'first hand' pre built house, you engage someone to carry out a snag list to cover aesthetic defects prior to occupation.

While I understand that the snag list should have spotted some items, some problems can easily pass undetected. I am shocked by the fact that there is no defects liability period once the snag list is given to the builder and the snags are fixed.
What happens, for example, if the external render starts to fall off 2 years after the purchase? (Let's assume this was caused by the plasterer using wrong materials, or wrong quantities...).
Based on what other people have commented, it looks like I don't have any type of guarantee because there is no defects liability period (unless I follow the #3 route - court).
I am amazed by the fact that there is, I think, a 2 year warranty for electronic equipment in the EU and there is nothing similar for new houses.:eek:

jblack

Max Moment wrote: »

The only way you would recourse to approach the Window company to take responsibility is if you had a collateral warranty with the company independent of the Builder. Your 'Guarantee' would have been with the Builder.

Regarding the windows that's not entirely correct, there are several other ways around privity such as the builder having an assignable guarantee which is not uncommon in new builds, there is also recourse under the Liability for Defective Products Act, 1991 where there is damage to other items in the house as a result (not to the house itself).

Not a route you would probably take but you've asked about the legal options as regards recourse.