Warning on record - references???

LegacyUser

Hi lads and lassies,

would really appreciate some advice. apologies for the long post

the background is that 2 years ago I started in my job. I was performing really well, getting bonuses, scoring highest performer on various areas etc. I got glowing reports from supervisors etc. As our department grew, they decided that it now warrented a its own manager. So about 6 mths ago one of our team got the job as manager. Now this guy hasn't a clue how to manage, and he really has it in for me. I won't go into too many details, but essentially his behaviour is very petty and definitely not appropriate from a manager. But that I can cope with - he annoys me, but I keep the head down, remain professional and get on with it.

But recently he has really ramped up his efforts to give me a hard time. I feel very excluded from the rest of the team (he moved the seating plan to make way for new staff and now instead of sitting with the rest of the group I am sitting in an actual different section on my own! because he says there is not enough room! but coincidently it was me who was moved, and another guy he doesn't like has been moved to the otherside of the room - I feel like I am 6 and have been sent to the bold corner by the teacher!)

Newcomers, with less experience than me, are getting opportunities I don't get. He assesses my quality much lower than others (and its not my imagination - almost two identical jobs, both of us gave the customer the same advice, because it is a standard response you give to this type of problem, and I got 50% the other person got 95%! he said she was more friendly cos she cracked jokes with the customer, but I was too professional and not friendly! too professional, I ask you!)

It all came to a head a while ago when I made a f-up. It wasn't the worlds biggest mistake, and I am sure others have done the same thing, but hands up it was a f-up (I returned a job to the queue cos I just couldn't resolve it and the rest of my jobs were backing up). It happens quite regularly, and although we know we are not really supposed to do it, no one has ever said that it is absolutely not permitted, just more like something you should try to avoid doing. Although it was not that big an issue, he classed this as gross misconduct and brought me into a formal disciplinary. I argued the case of the circumstance, but regardless he stuck to his guns and I got a gross misconduct written warning on my record. I appealed it with another manager, and although they were not willing to go against my manager completely, they reduced the time on my record from 12 to 6 mths.

Fast forward 2 mths, and a colleague has done EXACTLY what I did - returned a job to the queue. She was getting nowhere and her jobs were backing up. This girl is one of his pets. She got an hour re-training and no disciplinary. Not even a warning. I got gross misconduct! my disciplinary was purely because I returned the job to the queue - he said he understood why, but as per our SLA and our conduct agreement, no jobs should EVER be requeued, they must be escalated. no exceptions. So the entire issue I got my GM for is requeueing a job - that is exactly what she did. but actually no exceptions doesn't apply to her!

Thankfully, I have been lucky because in the last month 3 jobs in my (very specialised) sector have come up. I applied and got all three interviews. I have 2nd interviews with 2 and a 3rd interview with the third. I am fairly confident I will get offered at least one position. I can't wait to leave.

But now comes the dilemma.....I am worried that my GM disciplinary will be mentioned on my reference. If I stay in my current job, it remains on my record for another 4 mths. Obviously I won't be giving him as a referee, but what if one of the new companies contacts HR - will they mention it? And what about in future years, will it always remain on my record because I left while it was still active? If I stay another 4 mths, it will be wiped clean, so it seems unfair if the warning remains on my record because I left while it was still active.

Also, I am really mad that another staff member did what I did and got no warning, in fact got extra training and is now being given the opportunity to do advanced traning so she will be in line to get moved up the pay scale. I am thinking to make an appeal against my GM warning. But I am not sure how to go about this. I mainly want to appeal, not just because of it being unjust in light of recent events, but because I want to leave this job with a clean slate. I don't want this warning leaving a black mark on my record. But at the same time, I don't want to kick up too much fuss, because although I will never be on good terms with my manager, I am on good terms with other managers and staff and I don't want to be seen as a trouble maker. Particularly as in my area, I could very well cross their paths again.

I would really appreciate some advice on how to handle this.....
Do I try to remove the warning, and if so, how?
Do I just move on and forget about it, but if I do, will the black mark follow me around for future references?

Bandana boy

How do you know that she did not get a gross misconduct as well ?
Was this her very first time doing it or first time getting caught
Was your situation your first time getting caught but during investigation they found you had done it several times?
Appealing your own warning because of supposed treatment of somebody else rarely wins.

There are two points with regards to your warning
You broke a rule.
You had been told in advance about the rule .
unless you can argue one of those points then I am not sure what other grounds you have to appeal the warning.

With regards your managers treatment of you it looks like it is fairly clear he wants rid of you.
There are some legal routes you could follow and I would see a solicitor for what they are and advice on how successful that would be .
That said personally I would leave at the first opportunity and not take the matter any further.

Regarding your reference check ,the gross misconduct will never disappear of your record ,I believe the 6 months is how long it is active with regard to the companies employee dismissal procedures.
If they are going to mention it to future employers as part of the reference check ,I do not believe the time frame of it being active or not will have a bearing .
I believe it is unlikely that HR will mention it in a reference check though.

Move out on and up
Best of luck

LegacyUser

Bandana boy wrote: »

How do you know that she did not get a gross misconduct as well ?

I know because I was sitting next to her when she called the manager over and reported it. His response, was ah well, it happens. Don't worry about it too much. That was it. In fact, when she returned the job to the queue it was actually for a quite important client. When I did it, it was only for a smaller job for a once off client. So you could argue that her actions were worse than mine.

Bandana boy wrote: »

Was your situation your first time getting caught but during investigation they found you had done it several times?

I had never done it before. When the situation arose there was no manager on the floor to escalate to. I asked a colleague who is there much longer than me what he thought I should do. He said he knew how to deal with the issue and so to put it back in the queue and since there were only 3 of us on that day, it would come to him anyway and he would do it later. I explained all this to my manager but he still said, no, there is never a time you can return a job to the queue. Only a manager can do this, and without his approval I sould not have requeued the job. I pointed out he wasn't there and we were short staffed, that the other employee was happy to take the job on etc etc. He wouldn't be told. I appealled the GM ruling, and HR and another manager decided, given the circumstances that I was not totally to blame. They recommended that I be downgraded to a warning. But my manager stuck his heels in and insisted that the GM stay, but agreed to reduce it to 6 mths.

Bandana boy wrote: »

There are two points with regards to your warning
You broke a rule.
You had been told in advance about the rule .
unless you can argue one of those points then I am not sure what other grounds you have to appeal the warning.

actually, I was never told of a 'rule'. It was more like, try to avoid requeuing jobs as it can slow down the turnaround times etc etc. It was more like a guideline as in try not to do it if you can. Only do it with good reason. At my GM meeting I brought in a colleague who has worked there for about 6 years. She even pointed out to management that she had never heard that this was a rule, that it was a GM action, and that she knows of several people who do this. Provided a valid explanation can be given, its acceptable. Still my manager insisted it is a rule and she should know it too.

Even after the GM warning, I wasn't even given extra training etc as to how to handle such issues in the future.

Bandana boy wrote: »

With regards your managers treatment of you it looks like it is fairly clear he wants rid of you.
There are some legal routes you could follow and I would see a solicitor for what they are and advice on how successful that would be .
That said personally I would leave at the first opportunity and not take the matter any further.

It is quite clear he is managing me out. The reason I was thinking to bring it further is because his now manager is quite simpathetic to the situation. I approached him and said I felt he was treating me unfairly and that I was missing out on training opportunities. The senior manager started to monitor him and things improved for a while. However, now the senior manager is in the US for 2 mths, and then has holiday for 1 mth, and since he left he has returned to his old tricks - I am excluded from new training, whilst others who started after me get training opportunties every week! He says I am not entitled to traning because of my disciplinary, but the letter I got clearly states I am excluded from applying for promotion or a different department during the 6 mths - it says nothing about training. It is stupid because we are told we must complete x amount of training per year to keep fresh. When I raised it with him he insisted the GM excluded me from training, and if I had an issue with it I could take it up with the senior manager on his return...in 3 mths!

Personally, given all the evidence I feel this is contructive dismissal. There are no marks on my record other than this GM. I exceed targets, I have received awards for my work quality, my work is what often makes the difference between our team hitting target or not! My work has even resulted in our whole team getting a bonus. Before this guy I had 3 other supervisors and they all gave me glowing reports, no complaints. And now, this black mark I have is really annoying me because less than 2 mths later, another staff member who is one of his pets does exactly the same thing and nothing happens! next week she is being uptrained on a new product - above not only me, but others who are there longer, and she hasn't got a clue! she needs help for everything she does, and he ends up having to step in to help her all the time. She doesn't even know the current systems, and yet she is being trained on a new system. It is so frustrating.

I was thinking, that would it be worth raising the issue, in the hope of negotiating away the GM? As in, I have grounds to take a case on constructive dismissal, but I will not take it further if the GM is just revoked from my record. Call it quits, I'm moving on, but I want to do it without a black mark. I have spoken to a solicitor and he says because I have a notebook with details etc, that I would have a strong grounds for taking a case, but I really don't want the hassle. I'd rather just clear the GM and leave.

How do I go about negotiating this? without totally burning bridges?

Bandana boy wrote: »

Regarding your reference check ,the gross misconduct will never disappear of your record ,I believe the 6 months is how long it is active with regard to the companies employee dismissal procedures.
If they are going to mention it to future employers as part of the reference check ,I do not believe the time frame of it being active or not will have a bearing .
I believe it is unlikely that HR will mention it in a reference check though.

Move out on and up
Best of luck

I really hope you are right and the GM is not mentioned. I am giving one of the old supervisors as a reference, and just going to say my current manager is in the US - not mention anything about the divvy that is my immediate line manager. Hopefully if they speak to an old supervisor they will not look to speak to HR. But just in case I might ask a mate to phone up and ask for a reference for me and see what they say...at least that way I will know what I am dealing with.

I should hear from the two other companies before the end of next week - fingers crossed I get at least one of the positions.

Thanks for all your help

Sarah**

Before doing anything - Ensure you have everything in writing. You would have a stronger case if you lodged a grievance through the Internal Procedure prior to leaving. I would send a mail highlighting the circumstances to your manager and request for him to address these. If this avenue is not sucessful then I would suggest going to HR with the issue.

Most importantly, remove all emotions. This is not personal. This is business and the more impartial and removed you can be the more you case will stand.

In relation to the GM - Perhaps the reason why the girl was not given any sanction is due to the fact that she is new? How new is she to the team?

As for your GM, HR are not permitted to reveal Disciplinaries etc to future employers. They can confirm dates of employment and give a good reference if they so wish but generally if there has been an issue the previous employer will confirm dates only. (Which is a tell tale sign in itself) It will expire when it states it is due to expire. Managers don't often side with one another when it comes to upholding an appeal. They will have to be impartial. It was heard by that manager because there are no connections with your team and he has to hear it "De Novo". He has to hear the disciplianry again fresh and state whether or not he feels the sanction was justified.

Nody

Sarah** wrote: »

As for your GM, HR are not permitted to reveal Disciplinaries etc to future employers. They can confirm dates of employment and give a good reference if they so wish but generally if there has been an issue the previous employer will confirm dates only. (Which is a tell tale sign in itself) It will expire when it states it is due to expire. Managers don't often side with one another when it comes to upholding an appeal. They will have to be impartial. It was heard by that manager because there are no connections with your team and he has to hear it "De Novo". He has to hear the disciplianry again fresh and state whether or not he feels the sanction was justified.

I really wish people would stop with this misconception of things about references. HR, or anyone else giving a reference, can share any information which is documented and substantiated and would hold up to public scrutiny. This means that if the question was raised ten years later if you ever had any disciplinary actions done to you they can say yes you had as they got the facts to back it up. They can't claim that you stole from the cash box unless once again they got the facts documented to back this up.

Now here is how the reference call would go down in reality how ever:
New employer: "Would you hire this person again?"
Old employer: 15s of silence "Yes"

Why? Because you can't claim they shared any information they should not and they protected their behind about it.

Sarah**

Nody wrote: »

I really wish people would stop with this misconception of things about references. HR, or anyone else giving a reference, can share any information which is documented and substantiated and would hold up to public scrutiny. This means that if the question was raised ten years later if you ever had any disciplinary actions done to you they can say yes you had as they got the facts to back it up. They can't claim that you stole from the cash box unless once again they got the facts documented to back this up.

Now here is how the reference call would go down in reality how ever:
New employer: "Would you hire this person again?"
Old employer: 15s of silence "Yes"

Why? Because you can't claim they shared any information they should not and they protected their behind about it.

It is general company policy and practice not to give a poor reference - if you were aware of any of the case laws regarding this then you would know that it is mainly frowned upon.

Whilst there is not statute in place to state whether it is legal or not - it is HR's main role to protect the employer at all times and in giving a "bad reference" or revealing disciplinary action not only are you in breach of data protection (unless you have received signed authorisation from the previous employee) but you are potentially liable for "Future loss of earnings".

Bandana boy

Sarah** wrote: »

It is general company policy and practice not to give a poor reference - if you were aware of any of the case laws regarding this then you would know that it is mainly frowned upon.

Whilst there is not statute in place to state whether it is legal or not - it is HR's main role to protect the employer at all times and in giving a "bad reference" or revealing disciplinary action not only are you in breach of data protection (unless you have received signed authorisation from the previous employee) but you are potentially liable for "Future loss of earnings".

While everything you say is mostly true ,you have not refuted a single point made by nody.As nody stated you are only liable for statements you cannot prove to be true. Saying you have a GM on your record is true if you have and your liable for nout.
And their is no frowning on making true statements ,most companies will just state your start and end dates rather than give details of your record but that is not because anything is frowned upon but rather because it is people involved and people are generally nice

Mrs OBumble

Sarah** wrote: »

It is general company policy and practice not to give a poor reference - if you were aware of any of the case laws regarding this then you would know that it is mainly frowned upon.

Links please ...

Also, there are some areas where professionals could be censured, or at least badly regarded, if they did not pass on factual details about issues with employees. I'm thinking healthcare professionals, doctors, engineers - registered professional type groups. So I'm not sure that it's as clear-cut as you'd think.

LegacyUser

Well just an update on the whole thing....

First off, I had a chat with HR, and explained my concerns. They agreed to have the case looked at again by a manager. This time it seems to be more impartial. The diciplinary stands, but it is now just a written warning, not a Final written warning, and nothing about GM in it, just a general warning for conduct. So I am delighted about that.

Also I asked for clarification on what specifically the issue I was receiving a warning for - it was requeuing the job. Black and white. The circumstances were taken into account, and that is why it was downgraded to a written warning, but the core issue is requeueing and the rule is only a manager can do this. Not wanting to be a tattle tale, I didn't give names but I did tell them that I had personally been witness to an instance where no action was taken by the manager. As a result, we were all called into a meeting yesterday and the policy was clearly explained. HR said that they are aware of cases where this has been done and not followed up on, but they will not make an issue of it, but going forward ANY instances of requeuing without a manager's consent would result in a formal disciplinary action. So at least now my manager and yer wan know that they can't get away with playing favourites on these things again.

Finally, I got offered both jobs!
Delighted isn't the word. My mate phoned our HR dept and pretended to be a potential employer to see what gets said...literally all they will give is details of dates worked, hours, salary, job title and if the contract was 'terminated' by the company or the employee. He even tried to squeeze some info out of them, but they wouldn't budge...no mention of warnings or anything, so happy days! So it does seem to be as Sarah says, and large companies are reluctant to give any more detail than the bare minimum. Which for me is a good thing this time!

Both of the new places have been given HR for my reference check, and I am hoping that given it is a large company and this is the policy they will be happy with it. I can give my previous employer for a personalised reference, and I am sure he will sing my praises. So to say I am relieved is an understatement.
Now all I have to do is decide which offer to take and hand in my notice...so nice to have the luxury of a not only a fresh start, but a choice of two!

thanks for the advice to those of you who took the time to post.

Eoin

Fantastic; great news all around. Best of luck with the new job

Kristopherus

What a great result. I thought when I read the OP that this was going to end in tears. Best of luck OP with whatever job you choose.

Sarah**

First of all ... Well done OP - Delighted for you!

JustMary wrote: »

Links please ...

Also, there are some areas where professionals could be censured, or at least badly regarded, if they did not pass on factual details about issues with employees. I'm thinking healthcare professionals, doctors, engineers - registered professional type groups. So I'm not sure that it's as clear-cut as you'd think.

JustMary - As requested....links....

Have a look at page 23 of 34 first of all

http://www2.accaglobal.com/pubs/ireland/members/technical_library/tech_info/law/elu.pdf



http://www.irishjobs.ie/ForumWW/WWIndividualArticle.aspx?ParentID=80&CID=132&ForumTypeID=1987

thrilledskinny

HI Hopeforthebest,

can i ask did you resign in the end before the 6 month (4months left) time frame was up?

I have a disciplinary thing hanging over me, and feel like you that I really dont want to work for the company involved or in the current job I'm in after it expires. I have two months remaining on my disciplinary thing.

While i have been looking for other work, with no real luck so far, fingers crossed. I feel I cant resign until after the 6months, when all evidence of the dispciplinary action will be totally removed from my file !! I cant wait btw.

So I just wanted to know did you leave before it was up.

I was also delighted to hear from your post re the passing on of info re disciplinary procedures to potential employers, I have been really worried that this will ruin my chance of ever getting another job. I am so relieved to hear such info is not passed on. I must ring my HR dept to confirm this, never though to ring them, thought it would be my boss that would give a referance rather than HR.

Thanks and best of luck 'hope for the best' ....

LegacyUser

Hi thrilledskinny

yes, I resigned before the 6 mths is up. As soon as the warning was downgraded from a GM, I handed in my notice. I didn't want to ruin my chances by them knowing I was resigning. I got the warning marked down, and then 2 days later got told I had one of the jobs, so I handed in my notice.

I'm in a pickle now though - because my company have a strict policy of not giving personal references, I am stuck. One of the new companies wants 2 personal references from within the last 5 years. I explained the situation to them and they phoned my company themselves, so they are aware that it is just policy. In the last 5 years I have only worked 2 places. My previous boss is happy to give a personal reference and has done so, but my current company are adamant that they don't do this. I asked an old supervisor if she would give a personal reference, told her that she can make it clear that the reference is solely her personal opinion and not that of the company, but she is reluctant because the company have such a strict policy. The new employer are saying that they cannot fully make me an offer without 2 personal references from past managers. Previous to my last two jobs I was travelling.

So a bit stuck as to what to do...I know I could be sneaky and just get anyone to give a reference for me and say they are my manager, but I'd rather not do that as I really would like to start a new job on the right foot (and if I'm honest I'm a bit of a coward, I am the sort of unfortunate person who would get caught out and I'm not a very good liar).

Any tips on how to get around this??

thrilledskinny

Golly hard to know how to get around that.
I would encourage your supervisor to give you one, she can ask someone in the company is it ok, also she can emphasis its strickly personal, ie not from the company.

My partner semi 'lied' to give a referance for his current job, as his previous employers had closed down and firstly there was no one left to give a personal ref from and then he got me to give one but just to say i was his neighbour, which i am. So it can be giggled with.

You could also just ask the company your going to work for could you give any other type of referance, maybe somewhere you volunteer, or train with a team.

Congrats on getting the job offers btw...best of luck with it...

LegacyUser

thrilledskinny wrote: »

Golly hard to know how to get around that.
I would encourage your supervisor to give you one, she can ask someone in the company is it ok, also she can emphasis its strickly personal, ie not from the company.

unfortunately there is no way she will give me a personal reference. She asked her manager if it is ok and he said not a chance. They seem to get it drilled into them by HR that they are not to give references - they must think that they could be held accountable or something. It doesn't matter if you make it clear you are referring the person on your 'personal' opinion rather than that of the company. I imagine if I were in another team I might have a chance, I know others have had an unofficial reference. But probably my supervisor I've had all the trouble with had a word in her ear, and she is not willing to break the rules given the situation.

In the end I gave a family friend who runs his own business - I did some tech work for him a while back, so he can give a specific example of work I did he was happy with, and can also give me a character reference. I know he would say that if he had a job I was suitable for he would employ me, which I think is the main thing they want to hear. So I have sent that name and explained the situation. They said it is not usual, but they will get a reference from him, and after that HR will discuss it with senior managment as to wheter they are prepared to make an exception. I reminded them that I have another offer, so that might push them into being flexible on it. I can only hope. I know I could have got a mate to pretend to be my supervisor, but that just doesn't sit well with me.

Either way, I still have another job to fall back on, as the second company were happy with one personal reference and a standard reference from my company. I am expecting full details of their offer this week.

And the news gets better - I had applied for 2 other positions. Yesterday I got a call from one of them and it is for a more senior role. So I am going to an interview tomorrow. I have told them I already have 2 offers on the table and they promised to make a quick decision. So I really feel like things are falling into place for me...the timing was just right and its all worked out. I don't mean to gloat about my 3 job offers! but trust me, for the last 5 years there was nothing, absolutely nothing in my sector (quite possibly why my now manager feels he can treat me so badly - thinks I have no other options). I got the job I have 2 years ago after MANY interview stages, hoping I would be able to progress in that company, and in 5 years I have not progressed as I have a twat for a manager and there were no other jobs out there in my area. It really is like buses, they all come at once. But I hope it gives heart to some of you out there...you might struggle now, but in time, things will get better and your time will come. You just need to keep the faith and make sure you never forget your own abilities, and don't let your confidence drop.

Best of luck to everyone out there looking