hill starts in Automatic

Chris_Heilong

So I made a tread about doing hill starts in an automatic a few months back and many here said you dont need to do a hill start in an Automatic. This seemed true as I failed my test but did not remember doing any hill starts. Now on my last 2 tests in Raheny I was asked to pull in and apply the handbrake on a hill and as I am going to be doing my next test in Churchtown(or Hill country as I call it) and had a lesson out there today and it was confirmed that you do need to do hill starts in Automatics. I assume this will just involve switching in to L or S(low climbing gears).

So just wanted to reconfirm this:)

Zillah

I have no idea about automatics, but I just did my test in Churchtown a couple weeks back. The hill they love to use is this one. Much steeper than it looks, there is a main road behind you and a hill that obstructs the view ahead of you. You should go out and practice on it a bunch of times before your test. (It's also really steep so great practice for hill starts generally)

Why don't you ask your instructor these things?

Anyway, even if there isn't a specific "pull over here and put on the handbrake" sort of hill-start test, you should still learn to do it, because you can still stop on a hill at lights or in traffic.

MascotDec85

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

So I made a tread about doing hill starts in an automatic a few months back and many here said you dont need to do a hill start in an Automatic. This seemed true as I failed my test but did not remember doing any hill starts. Now on my last 2 tests in Raheny I was asked to pull in and apply the handbrake on a hill and as I am going to be doing my next test in Churchtown(or Hill country as I call it) and had a lesson out there today and it was confirmed that you do need to do hill starts in Automatics. I assume this will just involve switching in to L or S(low climbing gears).

So just wanted to reconfirm this:)

I presume your instructor explained what you need to do.

Handbrake
Neutral
Cancel signal
Drive
Mirror
Signal
Mirror
Blind spot
Release handbrake
If safe, Go

colm_mcm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

. I assume this will just involve switching in to L or S(low climbing gears).

So just wanted to reconfirm this:)

You'd just be using 'D'

L is a lock out gear, which just holds the car in first gear. You'd very rarely actually use this in real life. Maybe for engine braking in extreme situations, but not for a hill start.

'S' is usually a sport mode which changes the way the car changes gear, again, not the thing for the driving test, occasionally 'S' is a feature for holding second gear, much the same idea as L and even less likely to be ever used.

Chris_Heilong

colm_mcm wrote: »

You'd just be using 'D'

L is a lock out gear, which just holds the car in first gear. You'd very rarely actually use this in real life. Maybe for engine braking in extreme situations, but not for a hill start.

'S' is usually a sport mode which changes the way the car changes gear, again, not the thing for the driving test, occasionally 'S' is a feature for holding second gear, much the same idea as L and even less likely to be ever used.

yeah on my car it is S for second and it increases engine breaking which is what you need for climbing hills and driving down hills, I do switch into this from time to time and the car does not roll back, actually under normal situations the car never rolls back on Raheny hills, but the one in church town is the steepest I have ever seen. Still no problem for me.

The point of this post is to confirm to others that you do need to do a hill start in an automatic as last time I asked the question I was informed by everyone that you did not have to do a hill start. I dont have a problem doing it in either Automatic nor manual.

Chris_Heilong

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I presume your instructor explained what you need to do.

Handbrake
Neutral
Cancel signal
Drive
Mirror
Signal
Mirror
Blind spot
Release handbrake
If safe, Go

The lesson was only really to introduce me to the area, next time it will be a pretest, I already know all the procedure to driving and yeah hill starts are basically just like pulling in and pulling out anywhere except you should have a bite on the accelerator before releasing the handbrake. Thanks

Alanstrainor

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

yeah on my car it is S for second and it increases engine breaking which is what you need for climbing hills and driving down hills, I do switch into this from time to time and the car does not roll back, actually under normal situations the car never rolls back on Raheny hills, but the one in church town is the steepest I have ever seen. Still no problem for me.

The point of this post is to confirm to others that you do need to do a hill start in an automatic as last time I asked the question I was informed by everyone that you did not have to do a hill start. I dont have a problem doing it in either Automatic nor manual.

There is no need to take the car out of Drive. Hill start will just mean accelerating with the car in D and releasing the handbrake at the same time. There should be no need to go selecting gears for an autobox, unless under very strange circumstances.

For all the ADI's out there, I'm a firm believer in leaving the car in Drive at all times unless parking. I see no point in putting the car in neutral, in my opinion it kind of defeats the purpose of an auto box. How does this logic stand in a test environment?

Chris_Heilong

Thanks, ill just explain my experience;

I learned to drive in manual years ago, but always wondered what an Automatic was like, when it came time to by a new car I went with an Automatic because my wife also wanted to learn to drive and I wanted to make it as easy as possible, what surprised me most was I actually loved the convenience of the auto box and decided I didnt want to go back to manual. Now before one of my tests I got some pretest done and my then instructor said I dont need to click into neutral/handbrake when I stop at lights and to just leave it in drive, so fair enough. Come test day I did exactly that and failed on 4 marks under use of gears, the tester asked "do you know why you got those" and I said because I didnt go into neutral at the lights. I told him my instructor had told me this to which he said "that was a guy who doesn't know how to drive Automatics". I brought this up with the new instructor in Churchtown when he asked why I was going into neutral, I told him what the tester had told me and he said "the tester was wrong". confusing to say the least.

in regards to me just using D in the test, I have only ever used D in the test, but when I heard I was doing churchtown I done a bit of research on my auto box and it said S should be used when climbing or going down hills as "it is a climbing gear and also will increase engine breaking", my car judders alot going uphill in drive where as it effortlessly climbs in S. But I will head over there tomorrow and try it in just D. Thanks for the advice.

Alanstrainor

I'm not an adi, im just some chump on the internet. But failing for leaving an auto in D sounds bizarre and ridiculous to me!

ADIDriving

I would generally say stay in drive. If you are going to be stopped more then a few seconds apply the handbrake. If you are going to be stopped for a long time (eg. a minute) then you can use park. This is the same a driving a manual car; generally stay in gear, apply the handbake and use neutral if you think you are going to be stopped for a long time.
Always be ready to go when the lights change or the car infront moves. the marks may have been situational, ie Chris may have been stopped a t a big junction with slow lights for a minute or more.
PS Very few drivers bother with any of the locked gears.

Alanstrainor

ADIDriving wrote: »

I would generally say stay in drive. If you are going to be stopped more then a few seconds apply the handbrake. If you are going to be stopped for a long time (eg. a minute) then you can use park. This is the same a driving a manual car; generally stay in gear, apply the handbake and use neutral if you think you are going to be stopped for a long time.
Always be ready to go when the lights change or the car infront moves. the marks may have been situational, ie Chris may have been stopped a t a big junction with slow lights for a minute or more.
PS Very few drivers bother with any of the locked gears.

Do you have anything to back up that advice RE: putting the car in Park? I'd think that is wrong being honest. I would leave the car in drive at all times except when parking. I have heard people putting the car into neutral before at lights etc, but even this seems wrong to me.

Chris_Heilong

Thanks all I will take the advice as its now a good few people saying the same thing including instructors, Ill come back and let you all know how I get on after the test.

mitosis

Interesting discussion.

I stay in D if only using the footbrake - you can still feel the pull.
At lights where I would be long enough to use the handbrake I go into N - as I would in a manual.
I only use P when I am going to switch off the engine.

For the OP, on hills I stay in D, the anti-rollback ensures I can drive away cleanly even after releasing the handbrake.

ADIDriving

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Do you have anything to back up that advice RE: putting the car in Park? I'd think that is wrong being honest. I would leave the car in drive at all times except when parking. I have heard people putting the car into neutral before at lights etc, but even this seems wrong to me.

Park or neutral, in this situation there is no significant difference. Park is more secure, neutral can be an easier change. The logic behind it is that you are taking the slight strain off the handbrake when stopped for longer times. That said, I usually encourage people to stay in gear during the test, regardless if it is manual or auto. Only if they are comfortable and used to taking the car out of gear will I tell them to stick to that habit, as long as they can get ready in time. This and applying the handbrake are for more important.
As for back up, no. Except perhaps Chris's previous examiner who suggests more use of the gears. Although, I would think that it is very harsh to have been given four marks in gears. Unlikely to have been stopped at busy traffic lights, for a minute or more, four times in a twenty odd minute drive.

Chris_Heilong

ADIDriving wrote: »

Park or neutral, in this situation there is no significant difference. Park is more secure, neutral can be an easier change. The logic behind it is that you are taking the slight strain off the handbrake when stopped for longer times. That said, I usually encourage people to stay in gear during the test, regardless if it is manual or auto. Only if they are comfortable and used to taking the car out of gear will I tell them to stick to that habit, as long as they can get ready in time. This and applying the handbrake are for more important.
As for back up, no. Except perhaps Chris's previous examiner who suggests more use of the gears. Although, I would think that it is very harsh to have been given four marks in gears. Unlikely to have been stopped at busy traffic lights, for a minute or more, four times in a twenty odd minute drive.

The examiner told me after the test this is what I failed for and that the instructor who told me to keep it in gear doesn't know how to drive automatic. That test started at 13:45 and ended at 14:40 and was in Raheny, any other test I have done was always around 25-35 mins.

ADIDriving

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The examiner told me after the test this is what I failed for and that the instructor who told me to keep it in gear doesn't know how to drive automatic. That test started at 13:45 and ended at 14:40 and was in Raheny, any other test I have done was always around 25-35 mins.

That's a long test alright. You were unlucky with the traffic on that one, I guess. Did the examiner specifically say, out of drive at lights?

Chris_Heilong

ADIDriving wrote: »

That's a long test alright. You were unlucky with the traffic on that one, I guess. Did the examiner specifically say, out of drive at lights?

yes, it was good he explained his reasoning, but it was probably because of my confussed look when he pointed to "use of gears" on the sheet. I have done other tests after that one and I was never marked for gears but I did the neutral handbrake at lights in those cases.

J_R

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The examiner told me after the test this is what I failed for and that the instructor who told me to keep it in gear doesn't know how to drive automatic. That test started at 13:45 and ended at 14:40 and was in Raheny, any other test I have done was always around 25-35 mins.

Hi,

The examiner was wrong. You should not have been marked.

From "Pass your Advanced Driving Test" - Institute Advanced Motorist (IAM UK)

Unless you hold the car on the handbrake, or, for a brief stop, on the brake pedal, it will creep at engine tickover with the selector at "D" or "R". When stationary in traffic , even for many minutes, it is not necessary to move the lever into neutral because the torque converter absorbs most of the engine's propulsion force - no wear occurs. In fact more wear takes place when the driver moves the lever from neutral into gear. - Emphasis mine

Boskowski

That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard, failing someone for not putting her into neutral. I don't think I ever used neutral. Maybe if you're being towed but can't think of any other reason for neutral.
Similar for the handbrake on a hill. Why?
You're standing on the brake anyway since she would start rolling forward if not. Even on a hill unless it's a really steep one.
I only ever use D, R or P and occasionally S(port) and I'm absolutely convinced that's the right way of using an automatic.

Chris_Heilong

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

The examiner was wrong. You should not have been marked.

From "Pass your Advanced Driving Test" - Institute Advanced Motorist (IAM UK)

thats cool to read, just something technical and nothing to do with anything:), but my car is CVT and so does not have a tourque convertor or even a set gear ratio, a creep feature is built into it so it mimics a conventional autobox, same as for the L and S its just mimicing these features found on other automatics. Also to really screw with your minds I also dont have a traditional hand brake, instead I have a foot operated handbrake where the clutch would be in a normal car and I must hit a release beside the steering wheel to turn the handbrake off.

J_R

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

thats cool to read, just something technical and nothing to do with anything:), but my car is CVT and so does not have a tourque convertor or even a set gear ratio, a creep feature is built into it so it mimics a conventional autobox, same as for the L and S its just mimicing these features found on other automatics. Also to really screw with your minds I also dont have a traditional hand brake, instead I have a foot operated handbrake where the clutch would be in a normal car and I must hit a release beside the steering wheel to turn the handbrake off.

hI,

Thanks to Google now know there are several types of CVTs.

Pulley-based CVTs with either rubber or steel belts,
Toroidal CVTs and
Hydrostatic CVT.

The Honda hydrostatic system transfers the power via a tourque convertor as
Merits of Honda’s new torque converter-equipped CVT

From quick readings of the different systems, IMHO the pulley and toroid systems when stopped for a few minutes should be put in neutral. However if a hydrostatic system then leave in "D".

Best bet, contact the RSA seeking clarification or else have your driving instructor drop into the test center and have a chat with the examiners. Better still, have him chat with the supervisor, who will then ensure all the examiners in that area will be on the same wave length.

Lets know the outcome.

Merch

colm_mcm wrote: »

You'd just be using 'D'

L is a lock out gear, which just holds the car in first gear. You'd very rarely actually use this in real life. Maybe for engine braking in extreme situations, but not for a hill start.

'S' is usually a sport mode which changes the way the car changes gear, again, not the thing for the driving test, occasionally 'S' is a feature for holding second gear, much the same idea as L and even less likely to be ever used.

Unless you have something specific, L means Low gear, like not going out of first, for adverse driving conditions where you dont want the cars gearing to go up, e.g. in ice, wheels would spin more if you put it straight into D, S is second for conditions where you dont want go above second.
I'm not saying there isn't a sport button but i'd suggest looking at the owners manual for each individual car, yours may have what you say but in my experience, what I've mentioned above is the case.

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

yeah on my car it is S for second and it increases engine breaking which is what you need for climbing hills and driving down hills, I do switch into this from time to time and the car does not roll back, actually under normal situations the car never rolls back on Raheny hills, but the one in church town is the steepest I have ever seen. Still no problem for me.

The point of this post is to confirm to others that you do need to do a hill start in an automatic as last time I asked the question I was informed by everyone that you did not have to do a hill start. I dont have a problem doing it in either Automatic nor manual.

Engine braking is a different thing, with cars (engines) that have carbs as far as I'm aware as the air and fuel flow through the same component, but that is all another story, most vehicles have injection, but the internal friction and reduction of rpm cause something like it, open to correction, not that its that important.
Driving in an auto or manual in low gear ie L or S restricts the gears in the car from automatically going higher, but its an auto it will stay in the low gear on hill start in D (drive) anyway.

ADIDriving wrote: »

I would generally say stay in drive. If you are going to be stopped more then a few seconds apply the handbrake. If you are going to be stopped for a long time (eg. a minute) then you can use park. This is the same a driving a manual car; generally stay in gear, apply the handbake and use neutral if you think you are going to be stopped for a long time.
Always be ready to go when the lights change or the car infront moves. the marks may have been situational, ie Chris may have been stopped a t a big junction with slow lights for a minute or more.
PS Very few drivers bother with any of the locked gears.

Generally, I treat it like a Manual (its not a fancy bmw auto), if I'm stopped for a while, I just pop it into N, its just one push up, takes the pressure off the brakes (slight though it is), no brake lights on for the driver behind me.

In no way would I put the car into P (park) while out on the road and stopped at lights, in my case it will go through R (reverse) turning the reverse light on if I put it into P and when going back to D, that would concern me as advice to anyone driving an auto as you would have to disengage the lock to get into gear but defeating the lock doesnt mean you would as easily go to the gear you wish without more inconvenience.

Alternatively you can easily put the handbrake on and into N, then just pop the car back into D by one position easily and without looking at the dash or gears (as you should be able to in an auto or manual).

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

yes, it was good he explained his reasoning, but it was probably because of my confussed look when he pointed to "use of gears" on the sheet. I have done other tests after that one and I was never marked for gears but I did the neutral handbrake at lights in those cases.

Maybe he was treating like someone not changing gears at all in a manual, its part of the test to demonstrate gear usage, not saying its right or not,but not sure you can get informed advice as most driving instructors (make that people) are familar with manulas and not autos, even though they are simple, there is more to it than just sticking it in D.
Maybe they should question people on the usage of the other gears as it probably not likely in most test scenarios to have to use L (1), S (2) and as you really (in my opinion) should only put car in P when totally stopped, not just temporarily stopped, ie if it was part of the test to tell you to park at the side of the road, possibly on a hill, I'd suggest maybe putting car in P, as it shows you are aware the cars gears will be locked and if the handbrake failed it wont budge, but not at lights, I'd actually consider that a bit dangerous.

Boskowski wrote: »

That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard, failing someone for not putting her into neutral. I don't think I ever used neutral. Maybe if you're being towed but can't think of any other reason for neutral.
Similar for the handbrake on a hill. Why?
You're standing on the brake anyway since she would start rolling forward if not. Even on a hill unless it's a really steep one.
I only ever use D, R or P and occasionally S(port) and I'm absolutely convinced that's the right way of using an automatic.

I'd look up your car manual re S and the handbrake , do you mean why use it/them? on a hill?? incline or decline. plus dont agree you shouldnt be absolutely convinced of anything, (not having a snide dig) seriously i think it limits a persons ability to see what could be an error/fault in their driving.

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

thats cool to read, just something technical and nothing to do with anything:), but my car is CVT and so does not have a tourque convertor or even a set gear ratio, a creep feature is built into it so it mimics a conventional autobox, same as for the L and S its just mimicing these features found on other automatics. Also to really screw with your minds I also dont have a traditional hand brake, instead I have a foot operated handbrake where the clutch would be in a normal car and I must hit a release beside the steering wheel to turn the handbrake off.

whats the car? is it foreign? as in a US car? I've come across the emergency brake thing on the floor there.
CVT is just continuous variable transmission, lots online, ie how stuff works, good info, but its not essential for knowing how to drive an auto.
It seems like a predetermined mechanical feature that the gear ratio would be predetermined at certain points.
Few different types of auto gearbox, think they are mostly CVT, belt and pulley driven, not an expert just from google
Interested to know what the car is?

Ninap

Hi all

Any consensus on these points (as wife doing driving test in auto on Thursday):

- hill start: leave car in D, apply handbrake (in our case footbrake) (and keep foot on brake pedal or not?)?

- when stationary: leave car in D, apply handbrake, keep foot on brake pedal?

Thanks

Merch

Ninap wrote: »

Hi all

Any consensus on these points (as wife doing driving test in auto on Thursday):

- hill start: leave car in D, apply handbrake (in our case footbrake) (and keep foot on brake pedal or not?)?

- when stationary: leave car in D, apply handbrake, keep foot on brake pedal?

Thanks

Id suggest its done the same as a manual car, Id suggest asking a driving instructor but I found when my wife was doing lessons,that those we hired weren't that clued into Automatics at all.

Apply handbrake, means apply handbrake, do you not have one?
I'd suggest coming to a stop when and where directed to, then apply handbrake and place in neutral.
When directed to move off, check mirrors, indicate, place in drive, take up slack (ie like bite to ensure you are able to move forward without rolling backwards) look over shoulder, move off (MSMM).

I dont think keeping the foot on the footbrake would be good practice for either manual or automatic, what if it slipped off (or thats how it might be viewed as a possibility), without the handbrake on, you might roll back a bit, thats what they are looking to see if you can move off without rolling back, like into another car or pedestrian.

mitosis

From a Merc manual

Stopping

For brief stops, e.g. at traffic lights, leave the

transmission in gear and hold vehicle with the service

brake.

For longer stops with the engine idling, shift into “N”

or “P” and hold the vehicle with the service brake.

When stopping the vehicle on an uphill gradient, do not

hold it with the accelerator, use the brake. This avoids

unnecessary transmission heat build up.

Merch

mitosis wrote: »

From a Merc manual
For brief stops, e.g. at traffic lights, leave the

transmission in gear and hold vehicle with the service

brake.

For longer stops with the engine idling, shift into “N”

or “P” and hold the vehicle with the service brake.

When stopping the vehicle on an uphill gradient, do not

hold it with the accelerator, use the brake. This avoids

unnecessary transmission heat build up.

How very appropriate
But seriously,
I would when using my wifes car, apply handbrake and then shift into N if stopped temporarily, as in if i were to stop on an incline with traffic, I'd put the handbrake on and car into N (same as a manual car).
I'd only put the car into P if Im stopped more permanently or pulled up at the side of the road, reason being, its more like an emergency parking brake via the gearbox ( a mechanical device that engages in the gear mechanism/flywheel) . But as (most smaller cars anyway) have to go through R (reverse) and its not as quick to get from P to D or as instinctive, its not something Id do in traffic. Going from N to D (or vica versa) requires only for you to go down (or up as the case may be) one selection and doesn't require the shift lock button to be depressed. So it is something you can do without looking at the gears or the dash (and thus give your full attention to where it is needed, ie observation). One click up to N and one click down to D, the same as you or I would instinctively find gears in a manual car.

To summarise,
If I stopped at the side of the road on an incline temporarily, Id apply handbrake put it into N.
If it was steep enough and it was going to be for slightly longer than a momentary stop, then I'd put it into P, (as the reverse lights flash as you go from D past R to P, its not something Id do in traffic)

Ninap

Thanks for replies. It seems there is no definitive view on these points. We have the slight added complication that our Volvo's foot-operated parking brake needs to be physically depressed very strongly to stop the car rolling back.

jackofalltrades

Merch wrote: »

In no way would I put the car into P (park) while out on the road and stopped at lights, in my case it will go through R (reverse) turning the reverse light on if I put it into P and when going back to D

Do your reverse lights come on even if you move past the gear quickly?
I never seen this out on the road. Must test it to see what happens.

But as (most smaller cars anyway) have to go through R (reverse) and its not as quick to get from P to D or as instinctive, its not something Id do in traffic. Going from N to D (or vica versa) requires only for you to go down (or up as the case may be) one selection and doesn't require the shift lock button to be depressed. So it is something you can do without looking at the gears or the dash (and thus give your full attention to where it is needed, ie observation). One click up to N and one click down to D, the same as you or I would instinctively find gears in a manual car.

I tested this today in my car after reading this. I find I can go from P to D without evening thinking about it.

Only ever use neutal when rolling the car. Will put gearbox in P if stopped for a long time at lights. I never really trust handbrakes.

ProudDUB

Ninap wrote: »

Thanks for replies. It seems there is no definitive view on these points.

I think that there is. I've been driving automatics all my life. When I moved back here from the US, I had to take lessons to get my Irish license. I was told by 3 different ADI's to keep the car in Drive at all times, unless I am parking the car, not just stopping, but parking. Apply the hand brake if I am going to be stopped for more than 3 seconds.

That is about it really. There is no need to switch back and forth between Neutral and Park and Drive in the course of your regular driving or during your test, unless something exceptional happens, such as an accident for example, where you are stopped by police for a long time.

Switching between neutral, park and drive during regular driving defeats the whole purpose of driving an automatic car. The tester who failed the poster for doing so is an poorly trained idiot who doesn't know how to do his job properly imo.

Merch

Ninap wrote: »

Thanks for replies. It seems there is no definitive view on these points. We have the slight added complication that our Volvo's foot-operated parking brake needs to be physically depressed very strongly to stop the car rolling back.

I'd say, treat it like a manual, Ive had no problem with that, if Im stopped for a while in traffic, Id go to N with handbrake on, if its a momentary stop, then Id leave it in D.
Its been a while since I did my manual test, so I cant recal what they said, but I was told to pull over to the side of the road (hill) and treated it like I was stopping normally, i.e. handbrake on, into neutral.

Do you have a car manual, if so look it up and see what it says, if anything.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Do your reverse lights come on even if you move past the gear quickly?
I never seen this out on the road. Must test it to see what happens.

I tested this today in my car after reading this. I find I can go from P to D without evening thinking about it.

Only ever use neutal when rolling the car. Will put gearbox in P if stopped for a long time at lights. I never really trust handbrakes.

Yes, Id say, but not when Im in the car, how would I see it?? but when Ive seen my wife move off, it always flicks the reverse light as she moves the lever from P to D, Id suggest not rushing past R to not switch on the reverse light. Bit pointless hoping it wont come on, (whether it does or does not)its distracting someone from observation in my opinion. I wouldnt put in P unless stopped, as in parked up myself.

What do you mean rolling the car?
To me, P at the lights is bad practice, the only time the car is in P is at the start and end of a journey or at least a very long stop at the side of the road, the hill start will be at the least a temporary stop, N to me.

ProudDUB wrote: »

I think that there is. I've been driving automatics all my life. When I moved back here from the US, I had to take lessons to get my Irish license. I was told by 3 different ADI's to keep the car in Drive at all times, unless I am parking the car, not just stopping, but parking. Apply the hand brake if I going to be stopped for more than 3 seconds.

That is about it really. There is no need to switch back and forth between Neutral and Park and Drive in the course of your regular driving or during your test, unless something exceptional happens, such as an accident for example, where you are stopped by police for a long time.

Switching between neutral, park and drive during regular driving defeats the whole purpose of driving an automatic car. The tester who failed the poster for doing so is an poorly trained idiot who doesn't know how to do his job properly imo.

I didnt find the ADI's I came across during my wifes lessons to be very clued in on automatics, even when she was driving manuals she did one lesson with a few instructors before doing some lessons with the same person, he gave up on her and said she may as well drive autos, Id already come to the conclusion myself. The wife did tell me they were all giving contradictory information regarding the same q's she asked.

Definitely pointless and hazardous to go to P, at least in cars with R between P and D. Im going to go out on a limb, at least in my wifes case, auto drivers are people incapable of passing a manual test :eek:, anything more taxing for them is trouble.
Having said this, I have become old and lazy and actually like driving my wifes automatic, I'll definitely consider one if I ever replace my current car.
But it is easy to go from D to N, some cars cant hold on the handbrake which means the driver is relying on the footbrake, which I definitely consider a bad habit and an unsafe one, one which I was warned of when I did lessons many moons ago.

So OP do you have an owners manual for the car? look it up and see what it says.
What Volvo is it? might look it up myself.

Merch

http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=90039

Just looked at the first google response,

Seems your handbrake (if its the same mentioned in the link) switches off the moment you apply the accelerator and does so seamlessly.

Not sure where this button is, but Id imagine if you stop on the footbrake
apply the electrical brake (is it by hand or foot?)
Personally Id put it in Neutral, let us known if you hear otherwise or if you decide to go with leaving it in D what the outcome is, and of course if she passes
goodluck

edit
http://esd.volvocars.com/site/owners-information/MY12/V60/OM_1120/V60_owners_manual_MY12_EN_tp13320.pdf

if its like this volvo, its a hand (finger) operated switch.
See page 135-6

Do a few practices on a hill and see what feels the best/most seamless,least fussy, as to me, observation is always the key, so when doing different maneuvers, its to see you can do them and still observe, I think anyway.

garancafan

Merch wrote: »

..auto drivers are people incapable of passing a manual test..

I drove manuals for 30 years but have driven autos for the last 10. I took my test in a manual. I would say that driving an auto is inherently safer than driving a manual as a consequence of having both hands on the steering wheel for a longer time.

Merch

Merch wrote: »

Im going to go out on a limb, at least in my wifes case, auto drivers are people incapable of passing a manual test :eek:, anything more taxing for them is trouble.
Having said this, I have become old and lazy and actually like driving my wifes automatic, I'll definitely consider one if I ever replace my current car.

Well, I did say in my wifes case, but most people that do the auto test would do the manual test if they were able/felt confident enough to pass, there is simply less to contend with in an auto for a less experienced driver.

garancafan wrote: »

I drove manuals for 30 years but have driven autos for the last 10. I took my test in a manual. I would say that driving an auto is inherently safer than driving a manual as a consequence of having both hands on the steering wheel for a longer time.

I wouldnt agree with that (both hands makes it inherently safer), but if you feel so yourself, thats your opinion and you're entitled to it.
I drive using both hands as much as possible, I just carried the habit from when I was learning, and although my car then did not have power steering, it was still possible to carry out maneuvers with one hand, but I think that was not as safe. Now with most (all?) cars either fully power steered or power assisted, I wouldn't say its inherently unsafe to drive with one hand, more that its a bit lax and what else are they doing too?
Just because a person is gripped onto the steering wheel with both hands, doesnt make them safer than a person relaxed holding on with one, it depends on the person, their experience etc
So because its possible to have the hands on the wheel more, doesnt mean to me autos are safer, there are other factors.

Personally, I like driving an auto, but I prefer it coming from the point of knowing how to drive a manual.

Ninap

I'm inclined to follow ProudDub's advice, as I agree that constant moving from D to N defeats the purpose of driving an auto. However, putting on the parking brake everytime one is stopped for more than 3 seconds seems unnecessary if one has one's foot on the brake, and may lead to excessive gearbox wear.

For the record, we have an XC90. It has a foot operated parking brake, not an electronic parking brake.

Merch

Ninap wrote: »

I'm inclined to follow ProudDub's advice, as I agree that constant moving from D to N defeats the purpose of driving an auto. However, putting on the parking brake everytime one is stopped for more than 3 seconds seems unnecessary if one has one's foot on the brake, and may lead to excessive gearbox wear.

For the record, we have an XC90. It has a foot operated parking brake, not an electronic parking brake.

you might want to check the OP's replies about what happened when they did that, wasn't it the OP that failed their test? earlier in the thread.
definitely P, is for end of a journey, ie parked up not on the road.

I would personally not consider using the footbrake as an acceptable means to hold position, the footbrake (as I was taught is to stop the car moving) the handbrake is to hold it stationary, especially in a test.
Up to you to decide what you feel ok with.

ProudDUB

Ninap wrote: »

However, putting on the parking brake everytime one is stopped for more than 3 seconds seems unnecessary if one has one's foot on the brake, and may lead to excessive gearbox wear.

I was talking about traffic light situations, or if you are stopped at a side road and have to wait a while for a gap in traffic to pull out onto the main road. If you are stopped and a car hits you from behind (which can happen in stopped/stalled traffic situations) there is less chance of your hitting the car in front of you, or even worse, being pushed out into the path of oncoming lanes of traffic, if your hand brake is on. It was something that I rarely did and, still don't do now all the time. But the ADI told me I needed to do it during my test, or I wouldn't pass it. I have to admit to the logic of it to be honest.

jackofalltrades

Merch wrote: »

Yes, Id say, but not when Im in the car, how would I see it?? but when Ive seen my wife move off, it always flicks the reverse light as she moves the lever from P to D, Id suggest not rushing past R to not switch on the reverse light.

I checked this out, and the reverse light only came on if I dwelled on R whilst moving the lever to D.

What do you mean rolling the car?

Rolling it forward a few feet when it's parked and I don't want to engage the engine for a second or two.

To me, P at the lights is bad practice, the only time the car is in P is at the start and end of a journey or at least a very long stop at the side of the road, the hill start will be at the least a temporary stop, N to me

Why to you consider it bad practice though?

I put the car in P becase it easier than putting it in N and then engaging the handbrake. But mainly due to the fact that most handbrake don't apply a lot of force so I use "P" in case I'm rear ended at a junction.

Definitely pointless and hazardous to go to P, at least in cars with R between P and D

Why is it hazardous?

Just because a person is gripped onto the steering wheel with both hands, doesnt make them safer than a person relaxed holding on with one, it depends on the person, their experience etc

If you had a blow out, would you rather have a) one hand on the wheel or b) two hands on the wheel at the time?

I find driving on twisty, country roads late at night, that not having to take my hand of the wheel makes the drive a lot safer.

Alanstrainor

It's an automatic, all this changing to P is a bit of a joke.

Leave it in Drive and enjoy the simplicity of it. Why complicate matters with P and N when the car will be just as happy to sit in D with a foot brake applied, and/or a handbrake if you're that way inclined.

Putting the car in P and using it instead of the parking brake (handbrake) is incredibly bad for your transmission. The gearbox will take the brunt of the force of any incline the car is rolling against. (This is why it will clunk when you take it out of Park in such situations).

You say you use P to save you from having to use the handbrake, why not just use the handbrake and leave the car in D? Or just simply use your foot brake?

Can't make any sense of this topic at all tbh.

Merch

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I checked this out, and the reverse light only came on if I dwelled on R whilst moving the lever to D.

Rolling it forward a few feet when it's parked and I don't want to engage the engine for a second or two.

I have no idea why and am uncertain if I understand the circumstance/s you would be intentionally moving with the engine off. Most cars brakes operate off a vacuum system that aids braking, its possible in some cars braking may be ineffective with the engine off, certainly less effect.

Why to you consider it bad practice though?

I consider it bad practice, because its not what its intended for, and in most automatics I have experienced, R (and N) is between P and D, there is a possibility a driver can leave the gear selector in N or R, R being worse, you'd think it wouldnt be possible but at least a few people have reversed towards me unintentionally as they must have been unaware what gear they were in,and that was probably manuals.


“P” (Park):
Use this position when the vehicle is parked or when starting the engine. Use this position together with the parking brake. When parking on a hill, first apply the parking brake and then shift into the "P" position. (Caution: Use this position only when the vehicle is completely stopped).
Driving Tips for Prolonging the Life of Your Automatic Transmission

How you drive and care for your automatic vehicle can affect the life of your transmission. Keep these tips in mind:

• Transmission maintenance is critical to ensuring a long life for your transmission. You should check your transmission fluid frequently or have your mechanic check it at every oil change.
• In difficult conditions, such as sub-zero winter temperatures when fluids tend to freeze easily or extremely hot summer temperatures, always accelerate slowly so that the transmission has a chance to shift under less "strain" than if you're constantly pushing the gas pedal to the floor.
• Avoid very slow driving or idling in place. If you're stuck in a traffic jam, switch the engine into neutral and keep your foot on the brakes. This will disengage the drive from the wheels and avoid transmission overheating.

I put the car in P becase it easier than putting it in N and then engaging the handbrake. But mainly due to the fact that most handbrake don't apply a lot of force so I use "P" in case I'm rear ended at a junction.

If on your selector R is not between P and D (I think probably not), maybe it is better, but Id suggest reading the manual to see what it recommends, I still believe P is for parking only, you are engaging a mechanical device into the gearing/flywheel, if you're not fully stopped that will do damage, plus if I thought my handbrake wouldnt hold me then Id have it adjusted.

Why is it hazardous?

As I mentioned above, the possibility of selecting the wrong gear, plus going through more selections to get to P from D. Also the shift lock button limits the safe driving range of the gears for forward motion, to get into P, you must have to press that button? ie, you normally cant drop to L or 1 without pressing that button as you are not meant (in a lot of cars to drop that far without intending to, and its not something they want you to do to prevent potential damage to the gearbox, same for P)

If you had a blow out, would you rather have a) one hand on the wheel or b) two hands on the wheel at the time?

Id prefer have two hands on anway, but, I prefer still to be aware of the condition of my tyres and the surface Im on

.

I have looked and their is advice on driving related websites about driving autos, using more of the range of an auto box than just D, also some say its ok if stopped to leave in D, others say, better to put in N. I havent come across anything that says use P for anything other than the start/end of a journey.
I have come across some also when to use the handbrake for autos and manuals, they are all UK or other, not Irish sites.

Ninap

Alanstrainor wrote: »

It's an automatic, all this changing to P is a bit of a joke.

Leave it in Drive and enjoy the simplicity of it. Why complicate matters with P and N when the car will be just as happy to sit in D with a foot brake applied, and/or a handbrake if you're that way inclined.

Putting the car in P and using it instead of the parking brake (handbrake) is incredibly bad for your transmission. The gearbox will take the brunt of the force of any incline the car is rolling against. (This is why it will clunk when you take it out of Park in such situations).

You say you use P to save you from having to use the handbrake, why not just use the handbrake and leave the car in D? Or just simply use your foot brake?

Can't make any sense of this topic at all tbh.

I fully agree, it's just that there is conflicting advice about what a Driving Test Examiner may look for in relation to driving an auto, particularly with regard to the hill start.

jackofalltrades

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Putting the car in P and using it instead of the parking brake (handbrake) is incredibly bad for your transmission. The gearbox will take the brunt of the force of any incline the car is rolling against. (This is why it will clunk when you take it out of Park in such situations).

I don't put it in P when I'm stopped on any kind of incline. If your saying that occasional use of P when stopped at lights is bad for the gearbox, then I'm open to reading any information you have on it, I haven't been able to find anything on it.

You say you use P to save you from having to use the handbrake, why not just use the handbrake and leave the car in D? Or just simply use your foot brake?

Most of the time I just sit at the lights in D with my foot on the brake. If I see that I'm going to be stopped for a while then I put it in P. The car can be held with the handbrake it's just it seems to really strain/"hunker down" against, which doesn't leave me with a lot of confidence.

I have no idea why and am uncertain if I understand the circumstance/s you would be intentionally moving with the engine off. Most cars brakes operate off a vacuum system that aids braking, its possible in some cars braking may be ineffective with the engine off, certainly less effect.

Im talking about rolling it forward slowly for just a few feet. The brakes while less effective are capable of stopping it with the energy stored in the accumulator.

Merch

Ninap wrote: »

I fully agree, it's just that there is conflicting advice about what a Driving Test Examiner may look for in relation to driving an auto, particularly with regard to the hill start.

I looked up the RSA website regarding what it is they recommend, I couldnt find anything regarding what they require, which is disappointing if they are going to fail someone for not doing something they want, but provide no information on it, I found similarily with ADI's didnt really know or different ones provided contradictory information.

Alanstrainor

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I don't put it in P when I'm stopped on any kind of incline. If your saying that occasional use of P when stopped at lights is bad for the gearbox, then I'm open to reading any information you have on it, I haven't been able to find anything on it.

It's rare to find a perfectly flat surface, if you are using P without the handbrake applied you will put pressure on the box. If you ever feel the gear stick is harder to move out from P to D, this is why.

The act of merely shifting between the modes of the box will affect the life time of the box. I'm getting a bit pedantic here i know, but I feel your logic is completely flawed.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Most of the time I just sit at the lights in D with my foot on the brake. If I see that I'm going to be stopped for a while then I put it in P. The car can be held with the handbrake it's just it seems to really strain/"hunker down" against, which doesn't leave me with a lot of confidence.

Use Neutral then. I fully agree with RE the hunkering down, but it's something that doesn't bother me any more. There is no reason to use Park over neutral in the situation you have described. Park will immobilise the car, as such it is used when parking. The hint is in the name/symbol.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Im talking about rolling it forward slowly for just a few feet. The brakes while less effective are capable of stopping it with the energy stored in the accumulator.

Why are we even discussing this scenario?

If you need the car to be moved, turn the engine on and let it run for a minute if you're afraid of flooding it. Either way, I feel that this aspect of the discussion is taking away from the more important aspects.

Merch

jackofalltrades wrote: »

If I see that I'm going to be stopped for a while then I put it in P. The car can be held with the handbrake it's just it seems to really strain/"hunker down" against, which doesn't leave me with a lot of confidence.

I'm not a fan of sitting at the lights or being stopped anywhere with just the footbrake on, but it seems some people are, I dont agree, others will on that point, I just feel its safer if im to be stopped to have the handbrake on.
Seperate to that, I know what you mean about the bolded part above, with the car in D and the handbrake on, it does put a strain on the handbrake/rear brakes, that must put a bit of wear on the brake at least and over time must add up, if the handbrake/rear shoes are worn then they will be less able to hold the car and that doesnt get better over time as its cumulative.

To deal with that, I just stop with footbrake, handbrake on, push the selector one click into N, then there is no pull against the rear brakes and no concern if you will creep along if they are weaker than they should be.
(Unless its an almost momentary stop, well then i might not have time to even put the handbrake, then its a bit of a waste of time and uneccesary, but I try manage that by watching the road ahead, not tearing up to traffic to brake and stop, but rather maintaining a more consistent speed, I dont drive particularily slow and admit to putting the foot down when its needed but I stay out of the way of people moving faster than me, but in built up places I often see cars that overtake at the next lights.

Its only one push of the selector up to N, to me thats handier/easier/safer than going all the way to P and back.

There is no need to press the unlock button to get past R, no reverse lights coming on for the driver behind you, temporarily wondering what you are doing before it might dawn on them you are in an auto, if they even realise that. No going into P where a pin engages in a hole somewhere in the gearbox and then the opposite of all that as you return to D.
You cant even push it past N to R by accident as its prevented from doing so by the mechanical lock (so long as you dont hold the button on the side of the selector all the time, which in my opinion is wrong, and not as an ADI told my wife, which was to press that button always whenever changing gears in her auto, in my opinion wrong, as it defeats the purpose of having the button).

To go back to D, its just one click down to D (with the Jap selector type anyway).

Some people may think thats all too much but I feel it eliminates extra wear holding on the rear brakes when still in D, if you are going to be stopped for a sequence of the lights

It seems to be a matter of opinion as the RSA dont have information on what they require, at least I couldnt find any, so I looked elsewhere. Even then the answer was not conclusive.

Having said all this, i like autos, but I have read that as they are not as common, people aren't as clued into how to drive them, I just sold an auto, I explained how everything worked, confirmed with the person that they knew what to do, I took a look and they were still outside ten minutes later trying to figure it out so I went out again and went through I few things I forgot to mention as I assumed they were obvious (my mistake). I thought the car broke down or something before they even had a chance to depart, as it turned out, they were doing something wrong.

Ninap

I don't want to drag out a discussion that's going around in circles, but Merch makes an important point about having no information on the RSA website on this matter; how are learners expeceted to do the right thing in the absence of any clear guidance?

I'm also just off the phone from a driving instructor. He said it was a grey area, but repeated the advice to put on the parking brake if stopped for more than 3 seconds anywhere. He said it would be 'no harm' to put it into neutral when stopped for the hill start, but he didn't sound too sure.

garancafan

Merch wrote: »

... I wouldn't say its inherently unsafe to drive with one hand...

I did not state that. My point can be paraphrased to be "It is less safe to drive with one hand on the wheel than with two."

"Just because a person is gripped onto the steering wheel with both hands, doesnt make them safer than a person relaxed holding on with one"

My point was that for a given driver it is safer to drive with two hands on the wheel as much as possible.

Alanstrainor

Ninap wrote: »

I don't want to drag out a discussion that's going around in circles, but Merch makes an important point about having no information on the RSA website on this matter; how are learners expeceted to do the right thing in the absence of any clear guidance?

I'm also just off the phone from a driving instructor. He said it was a grey area, but repeated the advice to put on the parking brake if stopped for more than 3 seconds anywhere. He said it would be 'no harm' to put it into neutral when stopped for the hill start, but he didn't sound too sure.

Just RE: the hill start.

I would put the handbrake on, if on a severe hill the engine creep may not have enough force to keep the car from rolling back slightly.

This is all very dependant on the car, but there's no harm using the handbrake.

Merch

Ninap wrote: »

I don't want to drag out a discussion that's going around in circles, but Merch makes an important point about having no information on the RSA website on this matter; how are learners expeceted to do the right thing in the absence of any clear guidance?

I'm also just off the phone from a driving instructor. He said it was a grey area, but repeated the advice to put on the parking brake if stopped for more than 3 seconds anywhere. He said it would be 'no harm' to put it into neutral when stopped for the hill start, but he didn't sound too sure.

How did your wife get on in the test?
Hopefully she passed?

If she didnt and it was to do with automatic gear selection, maybe you can tell us, so it can enlighten/clarify to us as to what the RSA's position is on things, it might also guide other people taking the auto test in the future.