Ports for Counties - Churchill and Dev

WilcoOut

I was recently propped up on a high stool with a few friends

then one of them came out with this

'During WWII, churchill was so desperate to use Irelands ports, that In a written letter to Devalera, he proposed returning the 6 northern counties to the Irish republic in return for the use of Irish ports for the duration of the war. DeValera refused as he didnt want british soldiers back on Irish soil, nor our neutrality compromised'

im sceptical

but perhaps somebody could enlighten me

gobnaitolunacy

It was a secret telegram that Churchill, as Britain’s wartime prime minister, sent to Dev after Pearl Harbour. “Now is your chance. Now or never. ‘A nation once again’. Am very ready to meet you at any time.”

Could read too much into it though....open to a lot of interpretation.

getzls

Think Dev just didn't trust Churchill to deliver after the war. Of course Dev may had thought he would have got the North if the Germans had won as a reward for staying neutral.

jonniebgood1

getzls wrote: »

Of course Dev may had thought he would have got the North if the Germans had won as a reward for staying neutral.

No source for this I presume?

nuac

Dev did not think Churchill was serious, nor based on previous experience could he trust him to deliver.

hardCopy

nuac wrote: »

Dev did not think Churchill was serious, nor based on previous experience could he trust him to deliver.

And probably rightly so, they're still in Germany.

Dr.Nightdub

I'm pretty sure that in Eunan O'Halpin's "Defending Ireland", it's clarified that Churchill's offer of an end to partition in return for Ireland coming into the war was conditional on the NI Government accepting the deal. As that was never likely to happen, it's no wonder de Valera turned down the offer.

WilcoOut

Dr.Nightdub wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that in Eunan O'Halpin's "Defending Ireland", it's clarified that Churchill's offer of an end to partition in return for Ireland coming into the war was conditional on the NI Government accepting the deal. As that was never likely to happen, it's no wonder de Valera turned down the offer.

exactly, as if craig would allow churchill to gift the devalera the north........... after all that had gone before

it was never as easy as it was to be made out

Fratton Fred

That also comes back to another question oft asked. Did Dev want the protestant six counties?

jonniebgood1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That also comes back to another question oft asked. Did Dev want the protestant six counties?

Is there evidence that he didnt?

Partition was a major part of the treaty. He was the leader against the treaty and took part in civil war against it.

getzls

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

No source for this I presume?

Err, think you missed the word thought there.:cool:

getz

WilcoOut wrote: »

I was recently propped up on a high stool with a few friends

then one of them came out with this

'During WWII, churchill was so desperate to use Irelands ports, that In a written letter to Devalera, he proposed returning the 6 northern counties to the Irish republic in return for the use of Irish ports for the duration of the war. DeValera refused as he didnt want british soldiers back on Irish soil, nor our neutrality compromised'

im sceptical

but perhaps somebody could enlighten me

not sure if churchill was desperate,because he had all the cards to bring dev to the table,...IRISH TIMES 11-1-41,this country in circumstances of today is almost entirely dependent on british ships for the supply of those commodities which come from outside,....in 1938 inver tankers ltd was established to operate seven oil tankers,two days after the outbreak of WW11,all were tranferred to british registry and all were sunk withen three years.so the situation arose that every drop of oil and petrol during the war years was carried here in allied tankers,for we had none ourselves, it would not of taken more than a month to bring ireland to its knees.

jonniebgood1

getzls wrote: »

Err, think you missed the word thought there.:cool:

No. I was asking if you had a source for what you wrote. If you don't then what are you basing your comment on. It is a fair query.

eire4

Dr.Nightdub wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that in Eunan O'Halpin's "Defending Ireland", it's clarified that Churchill's offer of an end to partition in return for Ireland coming into the war was conditional on the NI Government accepting the deal. As that was never likely to happen, it's no wonder de Valera turned down the offer.

I have not read that book. But I think fundamentally DeValera simply didn't trust Churchill and he was most likely correct not to trust a man who was never shy about showing his disdain for Ireland.

getzls

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

No. I was asking if you had a source for what you wrote. If you don't then what are you basing your comment on. It is a fair query.

On my own opinon! The words i think gives it away! Plus this subject has been raised before and other posters a lot more informed than me have gave this view. As a Mod have you nothing better to do than pick holes in what i post? Go on, give me a warning.:cool:

jonniebgood1

getzls wrote: »

On my own opinon! The words i think gives it away! Plus this subject has been raised before and other posters a lot more informed than me have gave this view. As a Mod have you nothing better to do than pick holes in what i post? Go on, give me a warning.:cool:

It is preferred to base what you say on fact, that is fairly basic on any history forum and it is legitimate to try and establish whether you are baising what you say on solid evidence or whether you are purely speculating. In this case you were speculating. If you don't think this is correct then you need to read the forum charter and guidelines. As for looking for a warning you would be better off taking the advice given and moving on.

indioblack

WilcoOut wrote: »

I was recently propped up on a high stool with a few friends

then one of them came out with this

'During WWII, churchill was so desperate to use Irelands ports, that In a written letter to Devalera, he proposed returning the 6 northern counties to the Irish republic in return for the use of Irish ports for the duration of the war. DeValera refused as he didnt want british soldiers back on Irish soil, nor our neutrality compromised'

im sceptical

but perhaps somebody could enlighten me

I wonder did Britain really need the ports of the Free State? If we are talking about 1941, Churchill may have thought he needed them. If it was just Churchill himself, he may have been trying to get as many advantages for the British as he could. This is understandable - the Atlantic campaign was surely the longest of the war - and Churchill rightly considered it possible for Britain to be forced out of the war by the U-boat attacks on Allied shipping.
Posters here have rightly identified the problems associated with returning the 6 counties in return for the use of Irish ports - one could imagine people north and south having to be engaged, encouraged, persuaded - and being expected to give up some fundamental parts of their relatively new states. I'd imagine the negotiating would last longer than the Atlantic campaign - or even the war!
Practically, would the Irish ports, at this time in the war, be suitable for naval use? Had the British maintained the Treaty ports ?
How much personnel and material would be required in any port - how much time and work needed?
Imagine an Irish population witnessing a lot of British stuff and people moving through, as they would have to, a supposedly independant and neutral country.
Hindsight tells us that the British managed without these additional ports - and the Allies won the Atlantic campaign.
The battle of the Atlantic ebbed and flowed for years - it was a battle of intelligence, technology, and the American ability to build a lot of ships helped too!
Strategically I'm not sure what difference Allied naval operations from Ireland would have made to the convoys and the war at sea.
Ireland in this scenario could not have been regarded as neutral.
Perhaps it's all academic - I'd say it just wouldn't have happened - too much recent history causing it to be a non-starter.

Snickers Man

indioblack wrote: »

I wonder did Britain really need the ports of the Free State? .....
Practically, would the Irish ports, at this time in the war, be suitable for naval use? Had the British maintained the Treaty ports ?....
The battle of the Atlantic ebbed and flowed for years - it was a battle of intelligence, technology, and the American ability to build a lot of ships helped too!
Strategically I'm not sure what difference Allied naval operations from Ireland would have made to the convoys and the war at sea

The crucial advantage Irish ports as naval bases would have offered to the British during the Battle of the Atlantic was the ability to close the "Atlantic Gap" with long range flying boats.

The most effective means of "spotting" U-boats was from the air. Flying boats like the American Catalina or the British Short Sunderland could fly long ranges seeking out enemy vessels and were then able (possibly) to sink them themselves or make their presence known to surface destroyers.

They didn't have the range to cross the Atlantic, however, and so there was a "gap" in the middle of the Atlantic, beyond the range of flying boats flying east from US or CAnada and those flying West from the UK, in particular from Northern Ireland.

The Bismark was spotted (before its final demise) by a Catalina flying from Lough Erne in Fermanagh which was perhaps the most westerly point from which the British could launch aircraft.

Had they access to port facilities in Cork (Berehaven, Cobh) they could have increased the range of their aircraft to the south and west by a couple of hundred miles. That might have been significant and might have led to a reduction in the attrition rate of ships crossing the Atlantic.

indioblack

Snickers Man wrote: »

The crucial advantage Irish ports as naval bases would have offered to the British during the Battle of the Atlantic was the ability to close the "Atlantic Gap" with long range flying boats.

The most effective means of "spotting" U-boats was from the air. Flying boats like the American Catalina or the British Short Sunderland could fly long ranges seeking out enemy vessels and were then able (possibly) to sink them themselves or make their presence known to surface destroyers.

They didn't have the range to cross the Atlantic, however, and so there was a "gap" in the middle of the Atlantic, beyond the range of flying boats flying east from US or CAnada and those flying West from the UK, in particular from Northern Ireland.

The Bismark was spotted (before its final demise) by a Catalina flying from Lough Erne in Fermanagh which was perhaps the most westerly point from which the British could launch aircraft.

Had they access to port facilities in Cork (Berehaven, Cobh) they could have increased the range of their aircraft to the south and west by a couple of hundred miles. That might have been significant and might have led to a reduction in the attrition rate of ships crossing the Atlantic.

Good reply - and forces me to re-think some of my post.

getz

i think[and its only my opinion] churchill only said he wanted the ports so dev would have had to think twice before letting germans use them for themselves,in my merchant days when traveling across the north atlantic to canada and new york, british shipping would mainly sail north to avoid the bad weather [ icebergs storms ect]i am sure my maritime boardies will back me up on this.any advantage for aircraft would be only flying from the likes of galway or the northwest coast of ireland.

pedroeibar1

getz wrote: »

i in my merchant days when traveling across the north atlantic to canada and new york, british shipping would mainly sail north to avoid the bad weather [ icebergs storms ect]i am sure my maritime boardies will back me up on this.d.

Total nomsense It is called the great circle route. Look it up.

museologist

WilcoOut wrote: »

I was recently propped up on a high stool with a few friends

then one of them came out with this

'During WWII, churchill was so desperate to use Irelands ports, that In a written letter to Devalera, he proposed returning the 6 northern counties to the Irish republic in return for the use of Irish ports for the duration of the war. DeValera refused as he didnt want british soldiers back on Irish soil, nor our neutrality compromised'

im sceptical

but perhaps somebody could enlighten me

It appears there were two offers of a united Ireland by Churchill:

The first occurred in June 1940 when Britain with its back to the wall seriously considered the possibility. Couching it in diplomatic speak, the British asked what the Eire governments attitude would be to a united Ireland in exchange for entry into the war. Dev declared that any united Ireland would be neutral and this didn't suit the British. He was also aware that there could be no unity without the consent of the Ulster Unionists anyway. No formal offer from the British was made, although when Stormont got wind of what was going on there were protests from Craigavon. There was also a belief that the British would lose the war and so an alliance with them in the summer of 1940 held little attraction.

In December 1941 Churchill sent a telegram to Dev following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor which included the line: ‘It’s now or never, a nation once again’. This is widely interpreted as a second offer of unity for Irish entry to the war (although I personally have always found this unconvincing).

I believe your friend was probably referring to the first offer.

Both of these incidents are well covered in T Ryle-Dwyer's book 'Behind the Green Curtain' (Gill and MacMillan, 2009) if you wish to read further.

museologist

Snickers Man wrote: »

The crucial advantage Irish ports as naval bases would have offered to the British during the Battle of the Atlantic was the ability to close the "Atlantic Gap" with long range flying boats.

The most effective means of "spotting" U-boats was from the air. Flying boats like the American Catalina or the British Short Sunderland could fly long ranges seeking out enemy vessels and were then able (possibly) to sink them themselves or make their presence known to surface destroyers.

They didn't have the range to cross the Atlantic, however, and so there was a "gap" in the middle of the Atlantic, beyond the range of flying boats flying east from US or CAnada and those flying West from the UK, in particular from Northern Ireland.

The Bismark was spotted (before its final demise) by a Catalina flying from Lough Erne in Fermanagh which was perhaps the most westerly point from which the British could launch aircraft.

Had they access to port facilities in Cork (Berehaven, Cobh) they could have increased the range of their aircraft to the south and west by a couple of hundred miles. That might have been significant and might have led to a reduction in the attrition rate of ships crossing the Atlantic.

It is true that air bases in Eire would have given the British an extra 100/150 miles range to the west and southwest. I'm not sure if that would have been enough to close 'The Gap'? (I have no idea how wide it was).

However, it is also true that following the fall of France in the summer of 1940 the Cork ports would have been within easy reach of the Luftwaffe and so one has to speculate if on balance there would have been any real advantage in the availability of these bases to the British.

Specifically, in February 1941 at the height of the Blitz, Hitler's Directive 23 aimed to cut Britains Atlantic lifeline by targetting ports and naval facilities in support of the Kreigsmarine in the Battle of the Atlantic (Belfast was bombed during this phase). While flying boat bases in Cork may have given the British some short term advantages due to their location, it could be argued that their location would have mitagated against them too. Indeed, it could be speculated that bombing such fixed flying boat bases and thus protecting the u-boats may have been a better use of the Luftwaffe's resources than sending planes out to locate and sink Allied ships.

Just a thought.