Geothermal energy

Oldtree

I saw this article in the paper at the weekend about geothermal energy shuddering to a halt in ireland:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0707/1224319600645.html

Incentives name of the alternative energy game

Incentives continue to play a big role in the development of alternative energy, an industry that most western governments have embraced as a way of limiting dependence on oil and gas, cutting carbon emissions and combating global warming.

As a result, they also determine where the investment actually goes. GT Energy this week announced that it has agreed to build five geothermal-powered heat distribution plants in Britain for energy giant, EON.

The company has planning permission for geothermal-powered electricity plants in the Republic and has proposals for Northern Ireland. This week, however, it said that it is shifting its focus away from the Republic to Britain and Northern Ireland because they have incentives for geothermal energy, while the Republic does not.

The problem with incentives is that somebody has to pay for them. Consumers and businesses will pay an additional €32 million this year to cover incentives given to the wind industry.

Minister for Energy and Natural Resources Pat Rabbitte earlier this year ruled out extending such supports to offshore wind, as he said it could result in placing an extra burden on electricity users.

If alternative energy projects are viable businesses in their own right, why do they need incentives in the first place?

The answer, according to GT Energy’s managing director Pádraig Hanly is that energy projects tend to be long-term in nature but many investors want relatively quick returns.

The answer makes sense, and is reasonable in the context of asking investors to back new and developing energy technology. However, it is a lot less reasonable if it means that businesses and consumers have to pay extra simply to deliver returns to impatient investors.

the project that got the boot:

http://www.gtenergy.net/news/planning-permission-granted/
http://www.gtenergy.net/projects/projects/project-one/

Begs the questions if any sort of renewable power will ever be financially viable here without subsidy. ie us paying for it, and will subsidy ever make the renewable energy industry viable?

goat2

this is not good news,
problem with renewable energy,
it is too dear to install for the ordinary person, i would love to go down that road, but it is way out of my league pricewise,
i dont beleive in going in for grants, would rather if it were at affordable to everyone prices

Macha

Oldtree wrote: »

Begs the questions if any sort of renewable power will ever be financially viable here without subsidy. ie us paying for it, and will subsidy ever make the renewable energy industry viable?

Subsidies help the industry to grow, innovate, achieve economies of scale and bring down costs. As renewables become more cost competitive, their subsidies should come down to reflect better market integration.

But let's not forget that fossil fuels and nuclear have benefited from decades of subsidies, and they continue to benefit from subsidies, despite being mature technologies. I think renewables more than deserve a few more years of subsidies.

Oldtree

Macha wrote: »

Subsidies help the industry to grow, innovate, achieve economies of scale and bring down costs. As renewables become more cost competitive, their subsidies should come down to reflect better market integration.

But let's not forget that fossil fuels and nuclear have benefited from decades of subsidies, and they continue to benefit from subsidies, despite being mature technologies. I think renewables more than deserve a few more years of subsidies.

Yes i agree and hope the same as that and that is all good in theory, but the irish example of farming subsidies here has left us with a farming industry that would collapse without eu subsidy.

Capt'n Midnight

Geothermal is crazy here, drilling costs aren't linear with depth.

Get a map of temperature / depth , we have very few hot spots within decent drilling distance.


http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Geothermal_Energy/Geothermal_Maps/

http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/renewable-energy-resources/world/europe/geo-europe/index.shtml

Remember geothermal is not renewable - you are extracting the built up heat from a large volume - and at less than 80mW / m2 it will take a long time for the heat to be built up again. Direct sunlight is about 1,000,000 mW / m2 by comparison


Geothermal only really works since there is a huge volume down there, but in other areas usable temperatures aren't a couple of km down.

Oldtree

from their planning application they were planning 2 wells 4,000m deep.


http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=144&regref=SD10A/0283&type=apps&dateoptions=any&area=Any&keywordtype=proposeddev&term=geothermal

So why would they invest in this project to begin with? Do the subsidies make it a viable proposition in the short term for a cash grab by investors?

Oldtree

From this it looks like the subsidies issue is under discussion in the uk too, maby they jumped ship too early:

as the government wrestles with whether to reduce short-term subsidies to wind farms both offshore and onshore.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=79670366

Capt'n Midnight

Oldtree wrote: »

from their planning application they were planning 2 wells 4,000m deep.

how much subsidy would they get for 4.5MW ?

Drilling costs would be in the order of €4 Million per hole (low estimate)


Also why are they drilling in Rathcool - when Kinnegad is much hotter ?

http://maps.seai.ie/geothermal/ - tick on the 5,000 m

either the seai map is wrong or ...

Calculated Temperature
10m Depth: 14 °C
100m Depth: 13 °C
500m Depth: 20 °C
1000m Depth: 31 °C
2500m Depth: 62 °C
5000m Depth: 60 °C

County: Dublin
Townland: Rathcoole
ING Coordinates: 302157,226795

Calculated Temperature

10m Depth: 11 °C
100m Depth: 11 °C
500m Depth: 19 °C
1000m Depth: 27 °C
2500m Depth: 95 °C
5000m Depth: 191 °C


County: Westmeath
Townland: Kinnegad
ING Coordinates: 260106,245276

goat2

would it not be a good idea, that anyone who want renewable energy and cannot afford, as is my case, and wanting solar water heating system, this being about five thousand to buy and install, that we could borrow the money at a very low rate of interest and have it installed, as it is i would not be looking at grants, just bringing down the price of installing these, so that we cut out this nonsense of form filling, which is all it is, and creating jobs for few,
cut out the red tape, and sell cheaper, plus borrow cheaper, all good to me
the plus side,
creating jobs,
helping the envoirnment,
keeping money circulating,

Oldtree

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

how much subsidy would they get for 4.5MW ?
Drilling costs would be in the order of €4 Million per hole (low estimate)
Also why are they drilling in Rathcool - when Kinnegad is much hotter ?
http://maps.seai.ie/geothermal/ - tick on the 5,000 m
either the seai map is wrong or ...

I couldnt get the mapping to work for me this am but wow thats some difference in temperature, so why, what are/were they up to? they have to have known what they are/were doing with the amounts of money that were going to be invested.

Oldtree

goat2 wrote: »

would it not be a good idea, that anyone who want renewable energy and cannot afford, as is my case, and wanting solar water heating system, this being about five thousand to buy and install, that we could borrow the money at a very low rate of interest and have it installed, as it is i would not be looking at grants, just bringing down the price of installing these, so that we cut out this nonsense of form filling, which is all it is, and creating jobs for few, cut out the red tape, and sell cheaper, plus borrow cheaper, all good to me the plus side, creating jobs, helping the envoirnment, keeping money circulating,

if you are able then you could make your own, I saw a programme on the tv a number of years ago and they made solar collectors out of second hand radiators. The ones I saw were not installed on a roof just in the garden, kind like this:

http://www.ehow.com/how_7837719_make-solar-panel-domestic-radiator.html