What responsibility do airlines have with regard to passenger passports/visas etc

adamski8

Do airlines have a responsibly for making sure passengers have valid passports/visas? Sure they check them at the departure gate but I thought this was just to make sure you were who you said you were on the plane tickets (ie stop people buying cheap tickets and then giving them to someone else etc etc).

What got me thinking about this was last week some friends from Croatia had a ryanair flight from manchester to dublin but were not allowed board the aircraft and hence missed their flight as the didnt get their boarding pass print out stamped by ryanairs check in staff. I dont understand why ryanair have anything to do with checking their passports, surely this is for immigration officers in the destination airport to check.

If they had travelled with aerlingus they dont have to get this stamp and afaik no other airline requires it either. Why is it that ryanair have this policy of non EU passengers getting a "visa stamp" or is it something the others should be doing too? Do airlines get in trouble if they carry a passenger who isn't legally allowed to enter?

saspeir

It's probably because the airline is responsible for bringing you back should you not enter. They can claim the money back from the passenger as it is the passenger's responsibility but Ryanair are probably just taking steps to prevent having to do that...

One of their routes from Finland is located close to St. Petersburg(I think) so as to take Russians to Germany and Italy I think...

Usually when Ryanair have a policy for one destination/route they prefer to make it network wide I think...

http://www.ryanair.com/en/questions/non-eu-eea-passengers-document-check-requirements-for-online-check-in

Marcusm

Non EU passport holders have to do this on every Ryanair flight as they want to ensure the desk agents (who can be more easily trained/less easily distracted) perform the task. Big issue for visa nationals and others such as USand Aus nationals. I guess it's their choice and has to be followed as long as the rules are clear and available.

On the point about actual penalties, airlines are fined for carrying "rejected" passengers. The fine varies dependent on the country. Can be €20,000 per person, iirc.

coylemj

The airline gets hammered if you're rejected at the other end because of no/expired passport or (if applicable) no visa. I was due to fly to Paris a few years ago on business with two colleagues but in the airport just as we were checking in, one of them noticed that his passport had expired. Now at the time the immigration people in CDG were pretty lenient with morning Mon-Fri flights from Dublin and London. The overwhelming majority of the passengers were business folk in suits and the process was that you held up the cover of your passport and they waved you through.

We explained this to the Aer Lingus lady on check-in and while she was extremely sympathetic and polite, she said that if our man was stopped and rejected, the airline would get a fine and they (Aer Lingus) would be able to trace him back to her so she would get a kick in the ass as well. At that stage we knew the game was up and he had to go home.

When we got to CDG, not alone did the official look at our passports, he even stamped them! It's one of the few EU stamps I got on a passport in the past 20 years.

castie

I did a short term contract with Servisair in Cork one summer.
We were told irrespective of airline. (They handled ryanair,aerarann,some polish ones and most holidays flights plus some more)
If the passenger did not have a valid passport/visa we had to refuse to check them in.
I remember having a guy from Ghana with a UK visa flying from Cork to Dublin and had to be refused...I wasnt sure and called supervisor who called manager who actually called airport manager to check.

Su Campu

Strange that, Castle, as Servisair checked me and my wife in at Dublin for a flight to Barbados a few years back, in the days of the Britannia direct charter. My wife had only her Italian national idendity card, which the check in agent checked and allowed. We got Barbados and she was deported home on the return flight that day for not having a passport.

We took it to the small claims court as the agent had not said anything about it at check in but lost as the small print on the ticket said a valid passport was required (yes, our fault but my sister booked our tickets and only gave them to us at the airport). A harsh lesson for all there but still negligent on the part of the check in agent.

saspeir

Su Campu wrote: »

Strange that, Castle, as Servisair checked me and my wife in at Dublin for a flight to Barbados a few years back, in the days of the Britannia direct charter. My wife had only her Italian national idendity card, which the check in agent checked and allowed. We got Barbados and she was deported home on the return flight that day for not having a passport.

We took it to the small claims court as the agent had not said anything about it at check in but lost as the small print on the ticket said a valid passport was required (yes, our fault but my sister booked our tickets and only gave them to us at the airport). A harsh lesson for all there but still negligent on the part of the check in agent.

Did you know beforehand you were going to the other side of the world? I don't think the check in agent is at all responsible... It's up to you to make sure your passport is valid as per the country's policies, that you have the proper visa and meet all said conditions, that you have checked with the foreign office for any advice and looked up any quirky laws in that country. I think you need to lay the blame where it's due. That's yourselves I'm afraid...

I don't think you'd need to check the small print on that one...

Su Campu

Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing and it seems so stupid now looking back. As my sister booked everyone's tickets (all 35 of us) we didn't have the tickets to read and had I known she didn't have a passport (this was not long after we met, we weren't married then) alarm bells would have rung. It justs didn't occur to any of us that she wouldn't have one seeing as she had flown back and forth to Italy, and it didn't occur to her that the ID card was not enough. I've since noted that most Italians use this ID card when flying within Europe. We certainly make sure everything is in order since then!

Still, even if not legally responsible, in light of castle's post, the check in agent still should have said something! Castle said that was what they were told to do. Did they end up getting a fine I wonder.

saspeir

Su Campu wrote: »

Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing and it seems so stupid now looking back. As my sister booked everyone's tickets (all 35 of us) we didn't have the tickets to read and had I known she didn't have a passport (this was not long after we met, we weren't married then) alarm bells would have rung. It justs didn't occur to any of us that she wouldn't have one seeing as she had flown back and forth to Italy, and it didn't occur to her that the ID card was not enough. I've since noted that most Italians use this ID card when flying within Europe. We certainly make sure everything is in order since then!

Still, even if not legally responsible, in light of castle's post, the check in agent still should have said something! Castle said that was what they were told to do. Did they end up getting a fine I wonder.

How is she meant to know what is required for every country? I'd say you had to get a connecting flight to England anyways? So she probably thought you were just using that for the hop within the common travel zone...

I don't know what entry to the Dutch and French islands in the Carribean and Indian Oceans are like but there's so many ins and outs I wouldn't expect anybody but the country officials and the passengers to know what is required...

Marcusm

Su Campu wrote: »

Strange that, Castle, as Servisair checked me and my wife in at Dublin for a flight to Barbados a few years back, in the days of the Britannia direct charter. My wife had only her Italian national idendity card, which the check in agent checked and allowed. We got Barbados and she was deported home on the return flight that day for not having a passport.

We took it to the small claims court as the agent had not said anything about it at check in but lost as the small print on the ticket said a valid passport was required (yes, our fault but my sister booked our tickets and only gave them to us at the airport). A harsh lesson for all there but still negligent on the part of the check in agent.

You thought that an ID card was a passport or didn't that Barbados wasn't in the EU? Bizarrely she might have been admitted to St Martin or Martinique.

Marcusm

Su Campu wrote: »

Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing and it seems so stupid now looking back. As my sister booked everyone's tickets (all 35 of us) we didn't have the tickets to read and had I known she didn't have a passport (this was not long after we met, we weren't married then) alarm bells would have rung. It justs didn't occur to any of us that she wouldn't have one seeing as she had flown back and forth to Italy, and it didn't occur to her that the ID card was not enough. I've since noted that most Italians use this ID card when flying within Europe. We certainly make sure everything is in order since then!

Still, even if not legally responsible, in light of castle's post, the check in agent still should have said something! Castle said that was what they were told to do. Did they end up getting a fine I wonder.

The agent is responsible but to the employer Servisair who might in turn e responsible to Britannia for any fine but personal entry requirements are te responsibility of the passenger or parent/guardian if applicable.

Su Campu

It was a direct flight (well, via Shannon) and yes we effed up for not assuming she'd also have a passport. Had we the tickets in advance then we would have copped it. I later found out that none of her family nor most of her friends had one either as they only ever used the ID card and hadn't flown outside Europe.

Anyway, in case you're interested, she legged it to the Embassy when she got home, got a passport and was back out to Barbados 72 hours later (but missed my sister's wedding!). An expensive f up! At least the 20 hour roundtrip could have been avoided had the problem been spotted at check in though. We had around 3 hours to spare too so she could have legged it to the Embassy and back, though I don't reckon she'd have much joy getting one that quick!

Su Campu

I think in light of the PTC students now getting home on the taxpayer I too will ask that we too be rewarded likewise for our stupidity and the cost of my wife's rebooking be covered. Grazie mille, Leo.

castie

saspeir wrote: »

How is she meant to know what is required for every country? I'd say you had to get a connecting flight to England anyways? So she probably thought you were just using that for the hop within the common travel zone...

I don't know what entry to the Dutch and French islands in the Carribean and Indian Oceans are like but there's so many ins and outs I wouldn't expect anybody but the country officials and the passengers to know what is required...

Because thats a PSA's job? Your paid alot of money to do that job its not some shelf stacking at tesco wages. I was paid 17 euro an hour. (4 years ago now)

You must know whats acceptable to fly.
For example when I was there I knew Ryanair wont accept anything except passport but Aer Arann would bloody take a work id if it had a name and photo! (for flights within ire and uk)

Another example of refusing someone was a californian drivers license flying cork to dublin with ryanair. Sorry no you cant go.

saspeir

castie wrote: »

Because thats a PSA's job? Your paid alot of money to do that job its not some shelf stacking at tesco wages. I was paid 17 euro an hour. (4 years ago now)

You must know whats acceptable to fly.
For example when I was there I knew Ryanair wont accept anything except passport but Aer Arann would bloody take a work id if it had a name and photo! (for flights within ire and uk)

Another example of refusing someone was a californian drivers license flying cork to dublin with ryanair. Sorry no you cant go.

That's ridiculous. You worked directly for the airline and knew what policy was for the airline, not the country. This was a contracted desk agent who probably knew the bare minimum of what was needed for the airline. How is she to know the ins and outs of entry requirements to Barbados? She was probably handling a load of other flights too and let's face it Barbados isn't an hourly flight out of Shannon... You expect the staff in Dublin to inspect your Ozzy work visa next and interview you to make sure you are acceptable?

People need to think for themselves.

Su Campu

The check in agent was checking in the Barbados flight only. You would therefore expect her to know the basic requirements for that flight and to notice if a passenger handed in something other than a passport (Italian IDs look like our driving licences except they are beige). That is part of her job.

But yes, the responsibility for having that document in the first place clearly lies with the passenger.

saspeir

Su Campu wrote: »

The check in agent was checking in the Barbados flight only. You would therefore expect her to know the basic requirements for that flight and to notice if a passenger handed in something other than a passport (Italian IDs look like our driving licences except they are beige). That is part of her job.

But yes, the responsibility for having that document in the first place clearly lies with the passenger.

I'm sure they just thought there's no way somebody would travel to Barbados without a passport. You'd have to be fairly silly to do so (no offense, sorry).

castie

saspeir wrote: »

That's ridiculous. You worked directly for the airline and knew what policy was for the airline, not the country. This was a contracted desk agent who probably knew the bare minimum of what was needed for the airline. How is she to know the ins and outs of entry requirements to Barbados? She was probably handling a load of other flights too and let's face it Barbados isn't an hourly flight out of Shannon... You expect the staff in Dublin to inspect your Ozzy work visa next and interview you to make sure you are acceptable?

People need to think for themselves.

I was a two month summer contracted person.
I worked for Servisair not the airline who in Cork practically handled everyone except Aer Lingus.

Su Campu

saspeir wrote: »

I'm sure they just thought there's no way somebody would travel to Barbados without a passport. You'd have to be fairly silly to do so (no offense, sorry).

You're still missing the point. I've acknowledged we messed up and were to blame in the first place but she did too in failing to carry out one of her duties as check in agent, as highlighted by castie. She asked us for our IDs, spent some time going through each and handed them back with our boarding passes and said have a nice flight. Not a word about the ID card.

It's like with some air accidents. The first mistake is made, a second person doesn't spot it, and it starts a sequence of events. Our duty is to have the right documents in the first place but her duty is to check that we do and to refuse flight if we don't. There are strict fines for failure to do this when a passenger gets deported so don't say agents are not taught this and that they just assume things are fine, like we did. Otherwise why ask for ID at check in at all?

saspeir

Su Campu wrote: »

You're still missing the point. I've acknowledged we messed up and were to blame in the first place but she did too in failing to carry out one of her duties as check in agent, as highlighted by castie. She asked us for our IDs, spent some time going through each and handed them back with our boarding passes and said have a nice flight. Not a word about the ID card.

It's like with some air accidents. The first mistake is made, a second person doesn't spot it, and it starts a sequence of events. Our duty is to have the right documents in the first place but her duty is to check that we do and to refuse flight if we don't. There are strict fines for failure to do this when a passenger gets deported so don't say agents are not taught this and that they just assume things are fine, like we did. Otherwise why ask for ID at check in at all?

I disagree that she is in any way to blame unless her company's policy said so and even at that primary responsibility is yours. It is not law that the company make sure you have the valid documentation. It is at their discretion really in so far as I can make out. I think she only needs to make sure you are the person it says on the ticket (I.D. in this case). It is true to say airlines are encouraged to make sure passengers are informed but like I said a once off flight from Ireland... Come on.

Any travel website you go on says responsibility clearly lies with you:

• http://www.friendlyplanet.com/faqs/passports-visas.html

• http://www.ehow.com/facts_7582501_airlines-check-passport-requirements.html
• http://www.aerlingus.com/travelinformation/knowbeforeyoufly/visaspassports/
• http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=276#passports
• http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=75073

Irish Foreign Office Advice wrote:

All Irish citizens intending to travel to or reside in Barbados are strongly advised to register their details with the Department of Foreign Affairs. The Travel Registration system is available here. It is advisable to take a number of photocopies of your passport with you and to carry a photocopy with you at all times.

Your fault SC. I think when you've been especially silly it's best to put your hands up and take all blame. Depending on and subsequently blaming some girl at a check-in desk in Shannon for making sure all your documentation is in order is making you look even sillier.

Su Campu

Firstly saspeir I said the flight was from Dublin. Secondly, it was not a once off flight, it went out I think twice weekly and had been in operation for a couple of years at that stage. Thirdly, I have held up my hands in nearly every post and said we were ultimately responsible. I've now said it again. Fourthly, this occured in 1999 and that advice from the Foreign Office above did not apply then. And fifthly, an ex-Servisair agent has tried to highlight to you here that they were indeed charged with ensuring documentation was in order but you won't accept it.

And in case you give the same reply yet again, I will say it one more time - yes we were responsible. She just made an error that made things worse for the passenger and could have saved a wasted 20 hour roundtrip.

saspeir

Su Campu wrote: »

Firstly saspeir I said the flight was from Dublin. Secondly, it was not a once off flight, it went out I think twice weekly and had been in operation for a couple of years at that stage. Thirdly, I have held up my hands in nearly every post and said we were ultimately responsible. I've now said it again. Fourthly, this occured in 1999 and that advice from the Foreign Office above did not apply then. And fifthly, an ex-Servisair agent has tried to highlight to you here that they were indeed charged with ensuring documentation was in order but you won't accept it.

And in case you give the same reply yet again, I will say it one more time - yes we were responsible. She just made an error that made things worse for the passenger and could have saved a wasted 20 hour roundtrip.

You were responsible yet you took the company to court?

In 1999 we still had internet and travel advice. I used to go camping in Spain and things were still tight as regards travelling with passports within the EU, nevermind Barbados.

I was replying to the post in which you compared it to an air accident that went through a series of checks, only it's not really. It's more like a 737 taking off with nothing but the reserve fuel from the previous flight and nothing more... Pretty daft.

No point in arguing it out. You have your opinion, I have mine. Let's leave it.