Training for marathon 3 vs 4 runs per week

Mad Benny

I am finding it very hard to do four runs per week without feeling pain in my legs. I feel like I need more recovery time. I usually substitute a run for swimming or cycling.

Do I need to man up or can I continue by picking three of the longest runs each week out of the four expected in the Hal Higdon Novice 1 Marathon Training Schedule?

I am now on week 8 of the 18 week plan.

I have done two half marathons this year comfortably. The Curragh and the Clontarf Half on Sat at 1:53 (7 minutes faster than The Curragh).

average_runner

Do you do any recovery runs in the week?

RayCun

How fast are you running those three runs a week?

Mad Benny

Thanks for the responses. I don't really monitor speed during runs. whatever feels comfortable.

Approximately 6.5 miles an hour for all runs.

I haven't done any recovery runs. Is that a run the day after the longest one?

RayCun

Mad Benny wrote: »

Thanks for the responses. I don't really monitor speed during runs. whatever feels comfortable.

Approximately 6.5 miles an hour for all runs.

Bingo.

You're running everything at approximately the same speed you race half-marathons. It feels comfortable that day, but if you try to run the next day you get pains in your legs.

You need to slow down.

average_runner

You have two choices:
1) follow the advice from Ray, and get a structure plan.

2) Run three days a week but used the book from Runnerworld, Run Faster, Train less (i think).

Let me know how it works out if you go with plan 2

Mad Benny

Thanks guys!

Option 2 sounds very interesting but it's probably too late in the day to switch over. I have 10 weeks to go before the marathon. I'll get the book anyway.

This looks like it: http://www.amazon.com/Runners-World-Less-Faster-Revolutionary/dp/159486649X

menoscemo

If you really want to run a marathon I don't think 3 days a week will cut it. The more days per week you can run the better.
As Ray says you need to learn to run easy/recovery runs to build up your total mileage. They should be done at maybe 1-2 minutes/mile slower than your current pace.
Get into a routine of following a hard run with a recovery run the day after. Recovery runs will actually freshen your legs up and make you more ready for your next session.

Clearlier

What are you goals? Short, medium and long term.

Mad Benny

Thanks menoscemo. The recovery run now makes sense. I'll adjust my training schedule.

My goal is to run my first marathon and be well prepared for it. The time isn't very important but I would like to do it in under four hours fifteen minutes if possible.

Long term, I hope to continue running half marathons and to run one marathon a year and improve on my time each year.

average_runner

Mad Benny wrote: »

Thanks guys!

Option 2 sounds very interesting but it's probably too late in the day to switch over. I have 10 weeks to go before the marathon. I'll get the book anyway.

This looks like it: http://www.amazon.com/Runners-World-Less-Faster-Revolutionary/dp/159486649X

YEah thats it

rom

Mad Benny wrote: »

I am finding it very hard to do four runs per week without feeling pain in my legs. I feel like I need more recovery time. I usually substitute a run for swimming or cycling.

Do I need to man up or can I continue by picking three of the longest runs each week out of the four expected in the Hal Higdon Novice 1 Marathon Training Schedule?

I am now on week 8 of the 18 week plan.

I have done two half marathons this year comfortably. The Curragh and the Clontarf Half on Sat at 1:53 (7 minutes faster than The Curragh).

I was just like yourself last year. I did my first half in like just under the two hours mark over a very hilly course. Then Cork half a month latter in 1hr 52mins. Then my goal was DCM. I actually did http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51139/Marathon-Intermediate-1-Training-Program. Ran every run at the same pace and did a 4hrs 27mins and the 2nd half was just horrid.

Then dejected I started to listen to people who are longer in the game. Friend of mine is going through the exact same process as me last year. Running too fast all the time and he won't be happy with his DCM result either.

Please read http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

I did and listened and followed the advise I got from a reliable source. Now I ran the Cork half the other month and was not happy with my time as I capable of much better biased on the training sessions I had leading up to it. I ran a 1hr 38mins which is a 14 mins improvement in 12 months. It might seem like a lot but tbh I know I am going to knock another 8 mins off that before the end of the year. With 4 mins being just running a smarter race. Really this improvement happened in 6 months as that is when I started to train smarter.

If you feel that you need to take a day off after a days training then you are going much too hard. I am only learning myself but I know I am on the right track. The reason people ask about your goals on here cause if it is just to get through a marathon then you'll be fine but if you want to get better then running at the same pace all the time will make you tired, bring on injury and will bore the running shoes off you so that you will pack it in.

Based on your 1/2 time http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/calcUsage/calculate says that something like a 3:58 is your marathon prediction and
10:36 to 11:06 is for your recovery runs
9:36 to 10:36 for your long runs
both in mins per mile.

I run in the UCC farm in Cork and I see a well-known female runner with a sub 2:50 marathon PB running at 9:30/mile pace on the grass. When she can run a marathon at better than 6:30min/mile ??? Once you understand why she does this then you will become a better runner. Of course she does fast sessions too but there is benefit from both.

If your legs hurt then you are running too fast or too far simple. For speed session you must do a warmup and cooldown of 15 mins or so at recovery run pace. This is very very important and stops the legs feeling sore and will enable you to run hard the next time if you are going to do the route of still running fast all the time which is not recommended.

DublinDilbert

Some good advice from the guys above. Your probably finding the 3 runs in a row mid week quite hard when your start off, I know I did, as there's no recovery time between them. You could always try some intervals for the Wednesday session and see how you get on.

But to answer your original question, yep it is possible to run a marathon off 3 days/week running, but it also depends how fit you are and what you do on the other days. I've just recently run a PB of 3:31 in a marathon off the back of 3 days per week running, but on 2 of the other days I do circuit training (made an amazing difference), 1 day out on the bike and my rest day usually involves going hiking. But everyone is different so it might not work for someone else. Still undecided if I'll stick with this for the next marathon, best make my mind up soon ;-)


You could check out this book, i found it interesting:-
http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Marathon-Training-Without-Yourself/dp/1934030740/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341847816&sr=8-1&keywords=smart+marathon+training

Mad Benny

Excellent post rom. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Will read the PDF doc you provided a link to.

Thanks for the book tip DublinDilbert. I read the reviews. I notice it includes a 7 week marathon plan. It obviously requires a certain level of fitness but would be worth checking out.

Clearlier

Mad Benny wrote: »

Thanks menoscemo. The recovery run now makes sense. I'll adjust my training schedule.

My goal is to run my first marathon and be well prepared for it. The time isn't very important but I would like to do it in under four hours fifteen minutes if possible.

Long term, I hope to continue running half marathons and to run one marathon a year and improve on my time each year.

ROM gives good advice. I just wanted to point out that it's perfectly fine to have a goal of running your first marathon in the short to medium term but it's highly unlikely that you'll be well prepared for it. The link that ROM gave you will explain why. I wouldn't discourage you from a marathon but I might encourage you to get your training levels up to a reasonable level and your times for the shorter distances down first.

There's a book called Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas. It's worth your while buying it as it gives a pretty accessible description of the various types of runs that you can do. It also has schedules in the back of it. IIRC, it recommends regularly doing about 30mpw in order to follow their lowest mileage schedule. For somebody looking to do reasonably well this is the easiest plan I would recommend.

All that said don't forget to enjoy yourself. If running a marathon is a burning ambition of yours and you won't be motivated except to train for a marathon then that's what you should do.

Good luck

opus

Mad Benny wrote: »

Thanks guys!

Option 2 sounds very interesting but it's probably too late in the day to switch over. I have 10 weeks to go before the marathon. I'll get the book anyway.

This looks like it: http://www.amazon.com/Runners-World-Less-Faster-Revolutionary/dp/159486649X

Just started following that plan myself as it happens, this is week #1 of a 16 week countdown to DCM. It's three runs a week (interval, tempo & long) plus two cross-training sessions which will be cycling for myself. I'll probably do an extra recovery run on one of the off days as well as I find them helpful.

Like everyone else has said, doing all the runs at the same pace is not a good idea not to mind pretty tedious I'd imagine.

I've used the P&D book for my last few marathons which went ok but figured it would be interesting to try something new hence the FIRST plan you linked to.

Best of luck with whichever one you decide to go with

Mad Benny

DublinDilbert wrote: »

yep it is possible to run a marathon off 3 days/week running, but it also depends how fit you are and what you do on the other days.

I cycle to work five days a week and normally swim once a week. My cycle is about 30 minutes each way and when I swim it's 1600 metres so I would consider myself pretty active outside of running training

rom

Mad Benny wrote: »

I cycle to work five days a week and normally swim once a week. My cycle is about 30 minutes each way and when I swim it's 1600 metres so I would consider myself pretty active outside of running training

How far is work. Now if you ran this in and out to work it would probably take an hour each way if you nice and slow at say the recovery pace you would come on no end.

Mad Benny

rom wrote: »

How far is work.

It's just under 4.5 miles. That's a good idea incorporating my commute into my training.

I did my first proper "easy run" yesterday. I found it difficult to stick to the slow pace suggested on the mcmillan site you provided a link to. I understand the reason for it now. I've read most of the doc "Hadd's Approach to Distance Training". Thanks again!

Mad Benny

Thanks to all for the excellent advice. I ran the Sligo marathon yesterday and finished in 4:06. I'm very happy with my time as it was my first marathon and the route was pretty hilly.

The last 2.5 miles were tough but manageable.

I stuck to the four day week training and once I slowed down it got easier.

.

GKiraly

And dont forget the wise words of ''Listen to your body'', coz its true!

Two years ago I ran the Dublin marathon, as my first marathon, in under 3:45, and that was off 4 runs a week, no more - Tue, Wed, Fri, Sun. Afterwards I was told it wasnt the wisest idea taking that approach leading up to it, so last year I done a few 5 day week runs, twice getting injured on a Sunday doing the LSR the day after a tempo, didnt get to do any marathons, every time upped mileage legs broke down. So this year I reverted back to the plan of '10 doing 4 runs per week averaging 30 miles, and already I've done Connemarathon just under 4, Longford sub 3:40 and im throwin the kitchen sink at my training plan by lining up Dublin now too!!
So, goes to show, sometimes less can be more!

The way I see it is, at the end of the day, I started running as a hobby, thats what it is and thats all it'll ever be so its important to enjoy it and do what suits you. Best of luck in Dublin;)