Clare Coco And Harvard

CptSternn

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/council-officials-sent-on-10000-harvard-course-3160448.html

So the Clare county council is sending their own off to be educated at Harvard for three weeks, and we the tax payers get to foot the bill.

There are three major problems with this as I see it -

First, is there no quality education available in Ireland? Must we send people to America for a 'quality' education?

Second, why are we hiring people who need to be educated? Should they not pay their own way? Why are we paying their salary AND picking up their further education? Once out of college, should we the tax payer still pick up the tab for them? I wouldn't even mind if the coco wanted to send a few people to a couple classes...if they were in say LIMERICK, but sending them off to a foreign country is a bit extreme and cannot be supported.

Finally, this just smacks of the same 'junkets' our 'new' government said it was going to stop. Do we the tax payer need to pick up the tab for the council members when they fly to America for a few months? What benefit are we supposed to be getting for this?

I mean over €10,000 for three weeks - thats a LOT of household charges they will have to collect to cover that...

dr.fuzzenstein

Well I just hope there was helicopter and limousine transfers provided, with champagne and caviar reception, followed by black-tie ball and dinner in the finest restaurants the next day.
I only hope that their most exulted excellencies, our glorious leaders will have learnt enough on their trip to improve the running of the county by 400%.
Or did they just make sure a bit of money got sent the way of some cousins and friends of some Councillors, flew over and went on a massive kegger?
When it comes to wasting money, Irish government and civil service officials could give international lectures, there are third world dictators that would be ashamed to waste money on such a scale.
Or maybe this is just a way for the Councillors to siphon a bit of money for themselves and their cronies? It would not surprise me to learn that there is some leakage beside the normal wastage.

CptSternn

I mean, we are already paying for our former leader Cowen to attend an Ivy League school in America, why not just put all of our politicians there. And leave them - don't let them back through customs sure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ireland/article-2170386/Cowen-58-000-student-California-sunshine-Irelands-taoiseach-takes-Executive-Education-course--wont-say-paying-huge-fees.html

squonk

ON the other side of the argument, ongoing training is an attraction in a lot of jobs. It happens in many multinationals and other good companies that staff are periodically sent on training courses to improve their knowledge and update their skill sets. Harvard also does have a high reputation internationally so you'd have to think that the best standard of education available is from one of these high profile schools. Of course, I'd expect the lads coming back to be well able to sort out issues in their chosen fields as well.

kippy

squonk wrote: »

ON the other side of the argument, ongoing training is an attraction in a lot of jobs. It happens in many multinationals and other good companies that staff are periodically sent on training courses to improve their knowledge and update their skill sets. Harvard also does have a high reputation internationally so you'd have to think that the best standard of education available is from one of these high profile schools. Of course, I'd expect the lads coming back to be well able to sort out issues in their chosen fields as well.

Indeed, but the costs of this are astronomical.
And I would question who is paying for Brian Cowans training and what benefit it will provide to the state, seeing as he is a pensioner now. Why not train up some "young" up and coming people with a clean record.

LadyTBolt

squonk wrote: »

It happens in many multinationals and other good companies that staff are periodically sent on training courses to improve their knowledge and update their skill sets.

That's all when and good when the shareholders/investors of the MNC are paying for it but when the Irish public, in the middle of a recession are paying for the upskilling of public servants at Harvard its a bit ridiculous if you ask me.
What can public servants learn in Harvard that they cannot learn here?
There are hospital bed shortages in every hospital in the country, roads are full of potholes, school children still being educated in prefabs and yet the CCC feels the counties coffers are best spent upskilling civil servants - to do what exactly? It's hardly to improve the queuing system in the Motor Tax Office.

Absolute and utter horse p00p if you ask me. Craziest thing I've heard all week!

pilate 1

CptSternn wrote: »

I mean, we are already paying for our former leader Cowen to attend an Ivy League school in America, why not just put all of our politicians there. And leave them - don't let them back through customs sure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ireland/article-2170386/Cowen-58-000-student-California-sunshine-Irelands-taoiseach-takes-Executive-Education-course--wont-say-paying-huge-fees.html

carefull what you read in the mail cpt.hes a private individual nowand as far as i know hes doing this off his own bat.

CptSternn

squonk wrote: »

ON the other side of the argument, ongoing training is an attraction in a lot of jobs. It happens in many multinationals and other good companies that staff are periodically sent on training courses to improve their knowledge and update their skill sets. Harvard also does have a high reputation internationally so you'd have to think that the best standard of education available is from one of these high profile schools. Of course, I'd expect the lads coming back to be well able to sort out issues in their chosen fields as well.

I would agree with you fully on the idea that ongoing train is important and the private enterprise does it all the time, HOWEVER the two issues I highlighted are -

1. Why Harvard? Can you not get a quality education IN IRELAND? This seems like the government are basically saying that there is no place in our own country to get a quality education, therefore they are FORCED to send their people abroad to get educated.

I mean, if you are a business in Ireland and want to hire a foreign national who needs a visa, you must fill out a tonne of forms and PROVE that you first have exhausted your search in Ireland and that there are no suitable candidates available in Ireland before you can take your search abroad. Seems like that rule doesn't apply to politicians when they want to get educated. No FAS or Enterprise Board for them, they are on a plane to America with little to no selection process. It's also a slap in the face to anyone with a degree from an Irish institution.

2. Private corporations do pay and send their employees to training courses HOWEVER there are many strings attached and certain requirements which must be met. The first of which is there are ALWAYS contractual obligations. I have worked for Microsoft, HP, and IBM just to name a few companies who have employed me in two countries. I have received training in a long list of IT products and courses. I was only allowed to go after assurances were given via contracts that I would stay on for a specified time after getting the training. I have heard the same rules apply in the UK, and wonder if they are in effect here. The thing is with politicians and their appointed staff - there is no way to get the same contractual agreement as they can be voted out in a short period of time, well before the tax payers get their monies worth from their training. That leads to my second point, which is private companies ONLY pay when the training will benefit the company. Are we the good people of Clare going to get €10,000 worth of value from this gentleman they have sent abroad for training? How exactly is the council going to quantify this? For me if I get training and certification in say the next version of Microsoft Server, the company knows this will help with their contracts with their customers as I will be properly qualified to work on those systems. My training will pay for itself in a matter of months if not weeks. This council does not have any sort of way to gauge how much value added benefit we the tax payers are getting. I mean, sending off a guy for some managerial training can happen anywhere, why huge fees abroad if there is no way to justify the expenditure in the terms of value added benefit for the company, which in this case, is our county?

It's a junket for council members to piss off to America on a tax payer funded holiday that they can use to pump up their CV when they are voted out of office in a couple of years. They can try and candy-coat it all they want, but the facts and information here just do not stack up.

Palmach

CptSternn wrote: »

It's a junket for council members to piss off to America on a tax payer funded holiday that they can use to pump up their CV when they are voted out of office in a couple of years. They can try and candy-coat it all they want, but the facts and information here just do not stack up.

When they collect their Rolls Royce pensions they can use the extra letters to get a place on some tax payer funded quango.

Tora Bora

CptSternn wrote: »

I would agree with you fully on the idea that ongoing train is important and the private enterprise does it all the time, HOWEVER the two issues I highlighted are -

1. Why Harvard? Can you not get a quality education IN IRELAND? This seems like the government are basically saying that there is no place in our own country to get a quality education, therefore they are FORCED to send their people abroad to get educated.

I mean, if you are a business in Ireland and want to hire a foreign national who needs a visa, you must fill out a tonne of forms and PROVE that you first have exhausted your search in Ireland and that there are no suitable candidates available in Ireland before you can take your search abroad. Seems like that rule doesn't apply to politicians when they want to get educated. No FAS or Enterprise Board for them, they are on a plane to America with little to no selection process. It's also a slap in the face to anyone with a degree from an Irish institution.

2. Private corporations do pay and send their employees to training courses HOWEVER there are many strings attached and certain requirements which must be met. The first of which is there are ALWAYS contractual obligations. I have worked for Microsoft, HP, and IBM just to name a few companies who have employed me in two countries. I have received training in a long list of IT products and courses. I was only allowed to go after assurances were given via contracts that I would stay on for a specified time after getting the training. I have heard the same rules apply in the UK, and wonder if they are in effect here. The thing is with politicians and their appointed staff - there is no way to get the same contractual agreement as they can be voted out in a short period of time, well before the tax payers get their monies worth from their training. That leads to my second point, which is private companies ONLY pay when the training will benefit the company. Are we the good people of Clare going to get €10,000 worth of value from this gentleman they have sent abroad for training? How exactly is the council going to quantify this? For me if I get training and certification in say the next version of Microsoft Server, the company knows this will help with their contracts with their customers as I will be properly qualified to work on those systems. My training will pay for itself in a matter of months if not weeks. This council does not have any sort of way to gauge how much value added benefit we the tax payers are getting. I mean, sending off a guy for some managerial training can happen anywhere, why huge fees abroad if there is no way to justify the expenditure in the terms of value added benefit for the company, which in this case, is our county?

It's a junket for council members to piss off to America on a tax payer funded holiday that they can use to pump up their CV when they are voted out of office in a couple of years. They can try and candy-coat it all they want, but the facts and information here just do not stack up.[/QUOTE]

Since when did the partiular council "employees", involved get voted in and out of office? :rolleyes:

On another note, why don't they just do a course run, by our very own, high class, high quality, high standard, leading edge, highly efficient state training agency SOLAS, the former glorious FAS?