Ireland bailout most costly "at least since the great depression"

pseudofax

This is a decent article. It basically references a bloomberg article claiming that the Irish bailout is in essence the most expensive and farcical in the modern European era. I hate to say it, but I seriously question the viability of this country in future years. Not even 70 years of independence and here we are handing away our nation to the Germans. It would be funny and light hearted if it wasn't actually so serious, economically speaking. The Republic of Ireland is a shambles. Time to hand Ireland back to the Queen. We simply can't run it properly ourselves:(

What do you think, is it all a bit sensationalist, or does the truth ring true?

http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/COMMENT%3A+The+most+expensive+bank+bailout+ever/id/19410615-5218-4f97-b6a8-d285c7295139

_Kaiser_

I'd tend to echo your sentiments OP and have said the same here before - as a people we are simply too selfish, parochial, greedy and short-sighted (or to put it another way, immature) to be let at the controls of a nation.

Instead of dealing with national issues our elected officials spend time lining their own pockets, creating dynasties where not one of the family has done anything outside of "public life" and scoring points at home by fixing potholes.

We of course enable this behaviour by our admiration of the "cute hoor" and sympathise with those who are occasionally caught ("sure haven't they nothing better to be doing") and our own personal desires to get our snouts into the trough as well.

In short, we weren't/aren't ready as a nation for "independence". We NEED someone to tell us what to do and make the big decisions for us. Sure we will whine and bitch about it down the pub and online, but secretly we all know that we're not up to it - which is why we stand meekly by regardless of what outrageous scandal breaks in the news.

Expect lots of pro-Europe and nationalist types along shortly though to tell you how wrong you are with plenty of internet links to prove their point, but the reality is that we can all post whatever we like - it's not going to change anything until the electorate DEMAND better, not just of their representatives in government, but Irish society in general.

But ah shure, as long as I have my pint and my soaps who cares right?

Sand

Costly for who though?

Lets face it, if you were a large depositor in Irish banks or a holder of Irish bonds, would the bailout out of Irish banks be "costly"? Given the that the banks you invested in were ineptly run and bankrupt, the Irish bailout might have been costly for Irish people like myself who were not invested in Irish banks but it would have been mana from heaven for those who foolishly put their money with AIB and BoI. As the two "pillar" banks of Ireland, a bailout of AIB and BoI is priceless for those who stand to benefit - mainly "Official Ireland".

We are told about moral hazard, and the need to ensure that every Irish person is pursued for every cent of debt they foolishly took out from an Irish bank, without a gun against their head. Meanwhile, where is the moral hazard for Patrick Neary? Or Bertie Ahern? Or Brian Cowen? In Ireland, moral hazard, likes taxes, is for little people.

The Irish bailout is only costly depending on your perspective. If you had huge deposits with AIB or BOI a bailout is not costly, regardless of cost. Otherwise its just theft. Theft where to add insult to injury, the victim gets blamed for being promiscuous. Lets face it, weren't we all going mad? Weren't we all guilty? Arent we all liable? Right?

In short, we weren't/aren't ready as a nation for "independence". We NEED someone to tell us what to do and make the big decisions for us.

Going by the arguments offered by the Yes side in the recent referendum, we've found that benevolent democracy without choices in Frankfurt.

RichardAnd

Sensationalistic, perhaps but I think you hit on some valid points. I see Ireland as being part of a family of four; Ireland, England, Scotland and Whales. These four lands together form what is known as the British isles and three of them form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Ireland, though a nominal sovereign state, never fully separated itself from the UK as even today, it is our biggest trading partner.

To me, I think Ireland would have been so much better off if "independence" had never been realised and we took our place as a part of the UK as Scotland and Whales did with England. We would still be Irish in the sense that a Scot is a Scot but we would be part of something far stronger than the little thing we are today. We could have learned from a far more mature (though certainly not problem-free) state and all the blood shed of the troubles might have been avoided.

But that didn't happen. Instead, a small group of people stirred up the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. Oh certainly, we got our republic but look what happened to it in the nine decades that separate that time from the present. A deeply, deeply flawed political system and state governance were put in place, stirred from the helm by one of the most narrow minded and damaging men in Irish history; Eamon de Valera.

Though certainly not the only fool ever to hold power, that man instituted the mechanisms and means for Ireland to stagnant into the parochial and immature society that we still have not fully evolved from. Education became a system of religious indoctrination and the effort to permeate a near-dead language that has been a near total, though utterly unrecognised, failure. Censorship was the order of the day because god forbid that the proletarians question and perhaps, learn.

I don't pretend for an instant that the UK is a perfect society but had we been part of it, I feel we would have been more exposed to the world and less likely to skin into the mire. I've no doubt my opinion will be met with a less than auspicious reaction by some but this is what I believe and I would be just as willing to say it to a collection of people in a public house as I am to post it in an online forum.

OP, I believe Ireland is in a bad place but I also believe that there are, and always has been, people of merit here. What will happen in the global scene of finance and governance, only time will tell but my view is that the individual should look at the past and learn from it. If enough people improve their minds and begin to reckon the world in a rational manner then, slowly, the idea of a mature society might come about and, hopefully, a mature state might follow. If that happens, well I hope to live to see it.

Lantus

I'm not sure if any country that strives for its own self governance is truly ready but it has to start somewhere and learn from its own mistakes.

RichardAnd's post is interesting because if you look at Scotland and its potential to break away from the UK. This is mainly through the misguided vision of one man banging the independance drum and stirring up the scots natural pride in their own country and desire to be 'rid of the english'

given that scotland is a net taker of tax from england I'm not sure how alex will expalin why all those hospitals, schools and other institutions had to close. Hopefully the Scottish people will realise that they can enjoy their own idendity and be part of a greater union.

I mean isn't that just like Europe?

Bizzarley the english people in general are about the nicest you can find and very understanding and open to all other nations. Mos find the inbred hatred of the welsh, scots and Irish that is still common place just odd.

I think that Ireland can be run well and as a small country has great potential compared to other countries which are larger and by default harder to change.

Manach

A reflexive Anti-Catholicism that seeks to demonize the Church and the education system that provide some measure of support to the people and those politicians who at least did not do down the route of disasterous left/right extremism of the 30s shows a lack of historical understanding that is hardly a model for rational thinking, instead a rather virulent form of Jacobinism that has been present in one form or another for centuries.

Scofflaw

I find this idea that we are somehow "not ready for independence" absolutely bizarre. Yes, we had a property bubble, yes we had a bank bailout, and both of them were amongst the largest in post-war history. But while the scale of our bust was spectacular, mirroring the scale of our boom, neither makes us some kind of sui generis among the nations. Most developed nations have had property bubbles, most have had bank implosions - and a lot of them are having them right now.

The US had a sub-prime crisis, and indeed kicked off the global crisis, having also contributed heavily to its formation by its actions to stave off the 2001 recession. never mind their disastrous and pointless wars - should they too return to the arms of Mother England, admitting their evident incapacity for self-government?

I won't even get into the question of how frankly silly it is to contemplate returning to a subordinate position with our former colonial master simply because Germany has more weight at the eurozone negotiating table - a table we sit at as a small, but nevertheless sovereign nation, not an appendage of some other nation.

Frankly, while I despair of Irish politicians on a regular basis, they do at least possess the tiny amount of spine required to discount any such retrograde move as a serious possibility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ardmacha

Mos find the inbred hatred of the welsh, scots and Irish that is still common place just odd.

Do you mean that they find it odd that the English hate the Welsh, Scots and Irish or that they find it odd that the latter dislike them. I suspect it is the second. I think it is informative that the English think that people should be grateful for being colonised by them.

As for nationalism leading people to an early grave, this would not have happened if the colonial power had simply stopped occupying the place instead of anyone having to fight to get them to do so.

As to the general point, the previous post makes good points. We had the biggest boom, so had the biggest bust. This is largely a timing issue, but is also partly caused by importing British style property inflation thinking while in a currency union with other places.

woodoo

Our problems could improve if we change our system of government. We don't need our government politicians taking calls on pot holes and medical cards. Those making important decisions are far to concerned with getting voted back in next time so they won't do what is needed.

I'm no expert on politics but something about our set-up is seriously lacking.

I think it would prob have been better if we stayed in the Union and maybe tried to gain independence at a later date. Partitioning the country was a disaster and should never have been allowed to happen. In or out but not partitioned.

golden lane

woodoo wrote: »

Our problems could improve if we change our system of government. We don't need our government politicians taking calls on pot holes and medical cards. Those making important decisions are far to concerned with getting voted back in next time so they won't do what is needed.

I'm no expert on politics but something about our set-up is seriously lacking.

I think it would prob have been better if we stayed in the Union and maybe tried to gain independence at a later date. Partitioning the country was a disaster and should never have been allowed to happen. In or out but not partitioned.

you have a good point there.....and the majority at the time would have agreed with you..imo.

hindsight can solve every problem......

it did not happen. i believe that the republic does things, just to spite the uk....that is not a rational thing and people have suffered for it.

mikemac1

pseudofax wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland is a shambles. Time to hand Ireland back to the Queen. We simply can't run it properly ourselves:(

The UK called in the IMF in the seventies

Do you realy think they are so superior at managing a country?

thecommietommy

RichardAnd wrote: »

Sensationalistic, perhaps but I think you hit on some valid points. I see Ireland as being part of a family of four; Ireland, England, Scotland and Whales. These four lands together form what is known as the British isles and three of them form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Ireland, though a nominal sovereign state, never fully separated itself from the UK as even today, it is our biggest trading partner.

To me, I think Ireland would have been so much better off if "independence" had never been realised and we took our place as a part of the UK as Scotland and Whales did with England. We would still be Irish in the sense that a Scot is a Scot but we would be part of something far stronger than the little thing we are today. We could have learned from a far more mature (though certainly not problem-free) state and all the blood shed of the troubles might have been avoided.

But that didn't happen. Instead, a small group of people stirred up the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. Oh certainly, we got our republic but look what happened to it in the nine decades that separate that time from the present. A deeply, deeply flawed political system and state governance were put in place, stirred from the helm by one of the most narrow minded and damaging men in Irish history; Eamon de Valera.

Though certainly not the only fool ever to hold power, that man instituted the mechanisms and means for Ireland to stagnant into the parochial and immature society that we still have not fully evolved from. Education became a system of religious indoctrination and the effort to permeate a near-dead language that has been a near total, though utterly unrecognised, failure. Censorship was the order of the day because god forbid that the proletarians question and perhaps, learn.

I don't pretend for an instant that the UK is a perfect society but had we been part of it, I feel we would have been more exposed to the world and less likely to skin into the mire. I've no doubt my opinion will be met with a less than auspicious reaction by some but this is what I believe and I would be just as willing to say it to a collection of people in a public house as I am to post it in an online forum.

OP, I believe Ireland is in a bad place but I also believe that there are, and always has been, people of merit here. What will happen in the global scene of finance and governance, only time will tell but my view is that the individual should look at the past and learn from it. If enough people improve their minds and begin to reckon the world in a rational manner then, slowly, the idea of a mature society might come about and, hopefully, a mature state might follow. If that happens, well I hope to live to see it.

Well I don't know what dream world you and others live in !!!!! Let's look at some of the history of the state and the legacy that great economic utopia Britian which had destroyed the country for centuries left behind. Remember the Irish government had inherited a very poor country in 1922. Housing conditions for many people was abysmal - amongst the worse in Europe. Many families in Dublin were crowded into one room with no running water in the tenements.

De Valera re housed over 90,000 rural families in the 1930s. For those of us who can remember those houses which were still considered to be great homes in the 1960s - and some of them still around today - they were luxury for those families who had been living in little more than cow sheds. Really. This was the reality of the legacy of British rule - poverty on a scale unimaginable today and the fact that within 10 years a major re-housing scheme was underway - developed by an Irish Government - is admirable.

And yes, let's ignore that it was thanks to copying the British (and US) banking practise of "light touch regulation" from 2002 - which is what has landed the state in the mire. And Britain is far, far from been in a great position itself, as can been seen in the link below. Jayus, you'd never think Britain was bankrupt in the mid 70's and had to call the IMF in decades before poor auld Paddy !!

Britain in grip of worst ever financial crisis, Bank of England governor fears
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/06/britain-financial-crisis-quantitative-easing


" the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. " Vastly greater numbers of young men, around 50,000, were fooled into finding their way into an early grave in the trenchs of France, Belgium, Gillipoli etc by that imperial mass murderer and it's Irish mouthpieces under the lies for the freedom of small nations. If WW1 was about the freedom of small nations, how come the British empire was bigger at the end of it than before it ?

thecommietommy

RichardAnd wrote: »

Sensationalistic, perhaps but I think you hit on some valid points. I see Ireland as being part of a family of four; Ireland, England, Scotland and Whales. These four lands together form what is known as the British isles and three of them form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Ireland, though a nominal sovereign state, never fully separated itself from the UK as even today, it is our biggest trading partner.

To me, I think Ireland would have been so much better off if "independence" had never been realised and we took our place as a part of the UK as Scotland and Whales did with England. We would still be Irish in the sense that a Scot is a Scot but we would be part of something far stronger than the little thing we are today. We could have learned from a far more mature (though certainly not problem-free) state and all the blood shed of the troubles might have been avoided.

But that didn't happen. Instead, a small group of people stirred up the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. Oh certainly, we got our republic but look what happened to it in the nine decades that separate that time from the present. A deeply, deeply flawed political system and state governance were put in place, stirred from the helm by one of the most narrow minded and damaging men in Irish history; Eamon de Valera.

Though certainly not the only fool ever to hold power, that man instituted the mechanisms and means for Ireland to stagnant into the parochial and immature society that we still have not fully evolved from. Education became a system of religious indoctrination and the effort to permeate a near-dead language that has been a near total, though utterly unrecognised, failure. Censorship was the order of the day because god forbid that the proletarians question and perhaps, learn.

I don't pretend for an instant that the UK is a perfect society but had we been part of it, I feel we would have been more exposed to the world and less likely to skin into the mire. I've no doubt my opinion will be met with a less than auspicious reaction by some but this is what I believe and I would be just as willing to say it to a collection of people in a public house as I am to post it in an online forum.

OP, I believe Ireland is in a bad place but I also believe that there are, and always has been, people of merit here. What will happen in the global scene of finance and governance, only time will tell but my view is that the individual should look at the past and learn from it. If enough people improve their minds and begin to reckon the world in a rational manner then, slowly, the idea of a mature society might come about and, hopefully, a mature state might follow. If that happens, well I hope to live to see it.

Well if Britain is such a wonderfully run country, how come on the UN Development Index which measures the quality of life from country to country, Ireland is 7th and that utopia the UK is 28th ?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

golden lane

thecommietommy wrote: »

Well if Britain is such a wonderfully run country, how come on the UN Development Index which measures the quality of life from country to country, Ireland is 7th and that utopia the UK is 28th ?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/[/QUOTE]

are you aware......that the irish are going to the uk in droves......to get jobs.......stop reading rubbisn, and look at the facts......

thecommietommy

golden lane wrote: »

thecommietommy wrote: »

Well if Britain is such a wonderfully run country, how come on the UN Development Index which measures the quality of life from country to country, Ireland is 7th and that utopia the UK is 28th ?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

are you aware......that the irish are going to the uk in droves......to get jobs.......stop reading rubbisn, and look at the facts......

So are you telling me that the UN Development Index is lying ? And as for emigration, here's some food for thought -

Emigration soars as Britons desert the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1569400/Emigration-soars-as-Britons-desert-the-UK.html

pseudofax

mikemac1 wrote: »

The UK called in the IMF in the seventies

Do you realy think they are so superior at managing a country?

Are you trying to argue that a small loan from the IMF to the UK In the seventies(even considering inflation) is evidence that they can't run their country? Ireland per head of capita has borrowed the largest amount of money for this "bailout" in the history of the IMF and their associates.

That isn't much to be proud of. I grew up here during the 80's, so it's not like I pretend the other countries are perfect, they ain't, but we're seriously going down a bad path with this bailout. What should have happened, is the bank write off in 2008 was not passed, every Irish financial criminal jailed for life, and the Germans told to fcuk off back to where they came from despite their massive gambling losses.

Of course, the higher ups knew our nation is too soft for real change, so they decided to financially rape this country:rolleyes: The fact you have Ahern, Cowen and all these other clowns enjoying their undeserved pensions while walking around as free men, serves to undermine this country 100%

robp

golden lane wrote: »

it did not happen. i believe that the republic does things, just to spite the uk..

I have plenty of gripes with Irish politics, reform is needed but I have no idea what examples you are referring to. Maybe stuff like that happened 40/50 years ago but I don't see the relevance today.
Irish people are leaving in much less numbers than under British rule. I don't want to belittle the seriousness of Ireland's economic troubles. yet, to be even a bit convincing you would have to show that the UK's periphery is performing better in the longterm that the ROI. Places like London can't be compared to Ireland. Scotland, Northern Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales are economic blackspots and are no role models. For all Ireland's economic mismanagement we are still running a trade surplus , something the UK isn't manging at the moment.

are you aware......that the irish are going to the uk in droves......to get jobs.......stop reading rubbisn, and look at the facts......

Rubbish? The Human Development Index (HDI) is one of the best measures of human development. Its true we achieved higher place in the HDI with unsustainable spending. Yet at least its testament to the fact that not all the boom time money ended up in brown envelopes. For the record I have lived in the UK but I'm now in Germany. IMO there is a lot more we could learn from Germany.

golden lane

thecommietommy wrote: »

So are you telling me that the UN Development Index is lying ? And as for emigration, here's some food for thought -

Emigration soars as Britons desert the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1569400/Emigration-soars-as-Britons-desert-the-UK.html[/QUOTE]

you are missing the point...... they have left at times of high employment......a free choice....

the reasons are not for this thread.......

pseudofax

robp wrote: »

Rubbish? The Human Development Index (HDI) is one of the best measures of human development. Its true we achieved higher place in the HDI with unsustainable spending. Yet at least its testament to the fact that not all the boom time money ended up in brown envelopes. For the record I have lived in the UK but I'm now in Germany. IMO there is a lot more we could learn from Germany.

That HDI is a load of bollocks tbh. How do you even quantify "HDI"? Cue rooms of pseudoscientists known as "humanities students" creating tenuous relationships between disparate variables, to then proclaim a country measures as "high", "low", or "worse". It's common sense which countries qualify as first, second, and third world. You don't need a booklet of poorly researched nonsense for that. It's called "social" science for a reason! Social Science does not Qualify as scientific. Therefore, these stats are rubbish and meaningless. The UK has a percieved unemployment rate of roughly 8%. Ireland is a tiny nation with little over 4 million people, yet we have 15% unemployment and perhaps higher due to Government statistics fraud. The UK has 60 million people, yet manage somewhat reasonable if medium levels of unemployment.

Azhrei

Financial desperation - we've never faced that before! I'm amazed that some people want us to run back to John Bull. It's not as if he wants us back.

golden lane

robp wrote: »

I have plenty of gripes with Irish politics, reform is needed but I have no idea what examples you are referring to. Maybe stuff like that happened 40/50 years ago but I don't see the relevance today.
Irish people are leaving in much less numbers than under British rule. I don't want to belittle the seriousness of Ireland's economic troubles. yet, to be even a bit convincing you would have to show that the UK's periphery is performing better in the longterm that the ROI. Places like London can't be compared to Ireland. Scotland, Northern Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales are economic blackspots and are no role models. For all Ireland's economic mismanagement we are still running a trade surplus , something the UK isn't manging at the moment.

Rubbish? The Human Development Index (HDI) is one of the best measures of human development. Its true we achieved higher place in the HDI with unsustainable spending. Yet at least its testament to the fact that not all the boom time money ended up in brown envelopes. For the record I have lived in the UK but I'm now in Germany. IMO there is a lot more we could learn from Germany.

where did i mention thjat you should take advice from the uk.....

i posted what ireland was doing wrong.....not what the uk was doing right.....

if there is a thread on the uk's problems, i will be happy to comment on them.....

your post is another reason why ireland is in the mess it's in.....

SMASH THE UNIONS

Ireland is a horrible place to be for anyone with ambition or a desire to better themselves in life. The Irish disapora scattered across the planet is testament to the fact that successive governments have driven the educated, intellectual classes abroad, leaving a gombeen residual class back in Ireland to continue the vicious cycle of failure.

If you're happy with your €188 a week and have no ambitions or dreams in life, then Ireland is the place for you. We have an extremely generous welfare system. Enjoy the soaps/football and look forward to your couple of pints at the weekend to escape reality for a few hours. But if you want a job where you can make a difference and realise your full potential, live in a community you can be proud of, and raise your children in a healthy environment with a positive can-do attitude, go abroad.

golden lane

SMASH THE UNIONS wrote: »

Ireland is a horrible place to be for anyone with ambition or a desire to better themselves in life. The Irish disapora scattered across the planet is testament to the fact that successive governments have driven the educated, intellectual classes abroad, leaving a gombeen residual class back in Ireland to continue the vicious cycle of failure.

If you're happy with your €188 a week and have no ambitions or dreams in life, then Ireland is the place for you. We have an extremely generous welfare system. Enjoy the soaps/football and look forward to your couple of pints at the weekend to escape reality for a few hours. But if you want a job where you can make a difference and realise your full potential, live in a community you can be proud of, and raise your children in a healthy environment with a positive can-do attitude, go abroad.

i am happy with my 1,200 pounds a month pension................in the uk.

Dannyboy83

RichardAnd wrote: »

Sensationalistic, perhaps but I think you hit on some valid points. I see Ireland as being part of a family of four; Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. These four lands together form what is known as the British isles and three of them form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Ireland, though a nominal sovereign state, never fully separated itself from the UK as even today, it is our biggest trading partner.

To me, I think Ireland would have been so much better off if "independence" had never been realised and we took our place as a part of the UK as Scotland and Wales did with England. We would still be Irish in the sense that a Scot is a Scot but we would be part of something far stronger than the little thing we are today. We could have learned from a far more mature (though certainly not problem-free) state and all the blood shed of the troubles might have been avoided.

But that didn't happen. Instead, a small group of people stirred up the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. Oh certainly, we got our republic but look what happened to it in the nine decades that separate that time from the present. A deeply, deeply flawed political system and state governance were put in place, stirred from the helm by one of the most narrow minded and damaging men in Irish history; Eamon de Valera.

Though certainly not the only fool ever to hold power, that man instituted the mechanisms and means for Ireland to stagnant into the parochial and immature society that we still have not fully evolved from. Education became a system of religious indoctrination and the effort to permeate a near-dead language that has been a near total, though utterly unrecognised, failure. Censorship was the order of the day because god forbid that the proletarians question and perhaps, learn.

I don't pretend for an instant that the UK is a perfect society but had we been part of it, I feel we would have been more exposed to the world and less likely to skin into the mire. I've no doubt my opinion will be met with a less than auspicious reaction by some but this is what I believe and I would be just as willing to say it to a collection of people in a public house as I am to post it in an online forum.

OP, I believe Ireland is in a bad place but I also believe that there are, and always has been, people of merit here. What will happen in the global scene of finance and governance, only time will tell but my view is that the individual should look at the past and learn from it. If enough people improve their minds and begin to reckon the world in a rational manner then, slowly, the idea of a mature society might come about and, hopefully, a mature state might follow. If that happens, well I hope to live to see it.

Good post, some great points in there.

Regarding continued membership of the UK - I thought like this myself in recent years but ultimately, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't possible.

When you erase all the revisionist crap, it seems that in general, people had started to become integrated into Britain and began to consider themselves British, there was something of an economic boom at the time, especially in agriculture, with all the export to Britain.
So why did that change?

It wasn't due to nationalist fervour, or some irrational sh*te like the Easter Rising.
It was mainly due to pragmatic issues as you would logically expect.
As an example, one of the major reasons was the conscription crisis.
Another example was that the Church, or the priests on the ground at least chose to side with the nationalists, spotting an opportunity.
Various different everyday, mundane, logical social and economic reasons, which aren't really part of the revisionist history but it's much easier to just categorize the whole thing as part of a nationalist surge and much easier to a school student to understand it that way.

I guess it would be like looking back at early 21st century Ireland from the 22nd and wondering why home ownership suddenly fell off a cliff, then ascribing it to some particular movement e.g. Euro Federalism (which we are unable to see right now, because we're in the midst of it, or too close in history at least) but ignoring the everyday reality that homes simply became unaffordable for anyone born after 1980, for a decade, then later when they became affordable again, lending imploded. The boring everyday reality, not caused by some much larger movement.

Perhaps people in the 22nd or 23rd century will see it through the lens of their historical understanding, and as part of some big sociological shift, because it will be really hard for them to understand the reality of everyday life in the early 21st century.


As for our current problems, I see an independent Scotland going down the same path as Ireland with cronyism, nepotism, corruption in the political class, insider culture and a disproportionately powerful civil service and unions.

It's not so much a problem specific to Ireland, but more a problem common to small nations with a small population which are generally concentrated in a few areas. Ireland, Greece, Lithuania, Portugal, Latvia, Estonia, Georgia,
(Scotland?) and so on.
And not unlike the Irish football team, a lot of the people in official Ireland come from the same areas and often went to school together!
Could you imagine if all officers in the FBI or the CIA came from one small town in one small city in the US? LOL!

The UK nowadays tends to be run more along the lines of a meritocracy, as do larger developed countries in general, notably Germany, USA, Canada, France (It's rare to hear Irish person state the opposite)

But there is a ready made solution for us to that problem, simply by being part of a much larger federation by the European Union.
I would bet that if actually open up our system and start bringing in new blood from the rest of the European Union, there would be a noticeable improvement in the way things are done.
Or at least for a start, if the Irish government had to answer to the EU in various matters, especially financial.

As for the Irish language, I have no answer. Fine Gael lied about optional Irish. The madness will continue for the foreseeable future imo, which is a bit of a problem, because I personally believe it's in a large way responsible for the Irish mentality - not among those who willingly learn to speak and use it, but among those who have no desire to do so, yet are forced to.

Boskowski

pseudofax wrote: »

...What should have happened, is the bank write off in 2008 was not passed, every Irish financial criminal jailed for life, and the Germans told to fcuk off back to where they came from despite their massive gambling losses...

I agree with most of what you're saying but I can't quite fathom how that myth of the German gambling losses and Germany holding Ireland in debt is still being parroted around despite the lack of any evidence and even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
But I guess its so much easier to blame someone else for your problems and continue to cry and whinge rather than roll up your sleeves and get on with it.

Being a German in Ireland I am actually sick of this by now.

So for the umpteenth time: The EU is not Germany and vice versa Germany is not the EU. Germany just happens to be the biggest net contributor to the EU. And as it also happens Germany is the biggest net contributor to all those rescue funds that are springing up left, right and center. Now how terrible of those awful Germans to actually want some mechanisms in place to make sure those rescue funds aren't also pissed into the wind. The cheek of them and those EU fellas. Really they should just be handing us over those billions so that we can continue with our happy deficiting and our protected oligarchy 'til the cow comes.

Oh hold on, the banking debts - which of course the Germans are also at fault for I guess, sure didn't they make Lenihan do all this with secret phone calls or something - are actually been taken off our books now. But surely that's just another ploy by the Germans to keep us indebted for ever and ever.

I'm sick of it.

Of course I'd take it all back if you were able to showed me some evidence on how the Germans made Ireland go into this mess and how its protecting Germanys interest to keep Ireland indebted and whatnot. Anything at all. Show it to me. Show me something even and I will enter a discussion with you. Until then all I can say is I'm sick of the ignorance and the ****etalk and the myths.

poeticseraphim

Sorry but this has got to do with the Bank Bailout how??

We are not and will never be a part of th UK again. What is the point in bringing it up?

I am offended if anyone refers to the rep of Ireland as the British isles ...

And Scotland and Wales been there...we are better off no disrespect.

If you feel less Irish ....or dissatisfied or whatever then do something about it and live how you want to live where you want to live.

People did not want British for reasons of civil liberty and genuine human rights issues....which continued in NI long into thelatter part of the century.

Politicians are pretty much all egoists..

Would you have had Thatcher????

pseudofax

Boskowski wrote: »

I agree with most of what you're saying but I can't quite fathom how that myth of the German gambling losses and Germany holding Ireland in debt is still being parroted around despite the lack of any evidence and even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
But I guess its so much easier to blame someone else for your problems and continue to cry and whinge rather than roll up your sleeves and get on with it.

Being a German in Ireland I am actually sick of this by now.

It's not individual German people who caused this mess, nor most of the Government of the German nation, it's the fault of the brains of the EU project, the brains of this operation known as the euro single currency, based in frankfurt, Germany.

Years ago, Ireland created and printed/issued our own currency at variable interest rates to ultimately control and manipulate our internal market. If there was danger of a boom, we could simple raise the interest rates of borrowing to prevent a situation whereby idiots are borrowing at stupidly low interest rates, racking up huge debts, then causing a collapse.

When the euro was introduced, we could no longer control our spending patterns, not even the Government, so a crash was an inevitable eventuality of joining the Euro. Frankfurt didn't secure enough of these loans, which faciliated massive fraud in the domestic Irish economy, leading to the situation today, where ultimately, Germany is the net benefactor.

Boskowski wrote: »

So for the umpteenth time: The EU is not Germany and vice versa Germany is not the EU. Germany just happens to be the biggest net contributor to the EU. And as it also happens Germany is the biggest net contributor to all those rescue funds that are springing up left, right and center. Now how terrible of those awful Germans to actually want some mechanisms in place to make sure those rescue funds aren't also pissed into the wind. The cheek of them and those EU fellas. Really they should just be handing us over those billions so that we can continue with our happy deficiting and our protected oligarchy 'til the cow comes.

Never said it was. But the European Central Bank, the entity our Government is paying billions to, is operated and controlled from Frankfurt in the German Republic, no? It's not the ordinary German people that caused this, it's the ECB and the EU elites. Ordinary German people aren't to blame. The financial criminals are.

Boskowski wrote: »

Oh hold on, the banking debts - which of course the Germans are also at fault for I guess, sure didn't they make Lenihan do all this with secret phone calls or something - are actually been taken off our books now. But surely that's just another ploy by the Germans to keep us indebted for ever and ever.

I'm sick of it.

Why didn't the Germans secure these loans before they handed em out like smarties?

Boskowski wrote: »

Of course I'd take it all back if you were able to showed me some evidence on how the Germans made Ireland go into this mess and how its protecting Germanys interest to keep Ireland indebted and whatnot. Anything at all. Show it to me. Show me something even and I will enter a discussion with you. Until then all I can say is I'm sick of the ignorance and the ****etalk and the myths.

It's common knowledge that the German EU, the Irish Government, and the ECB/IMF are shafting ordinary people in this country. It's been broadcast through every media outlet for the past two, years. Would you accept that sentiment? Again I stress, it's not ordinary german people who are to blame, it's the ECB in Frankfurt, the Irish Government, and the EU/IMF.

pseudofax

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Sorry but this has got to do with the Bank Bailout how??

We are not and will never be a part of th UK again. What is the point in bringing it up?

I am offended if anyone refers to the rep of Ireland as the British isles ...

And Scotland and Wales been there...we are better off no disrespect.

If you feel less Irish ....or dissatisfied or whatever then do something about it and live how you want to live where you want to live.

People did not want British for reasons of civil liberty and genuine human rights issues....which continued in NI long into thelatter part of the century.

Politicians are pretty much all egoists..

Would you have had Thatcher????

The Republic of Ireland is a Sovereign nation located within the British Isles, which is a geographic, not a political term. Therefore it is 100% correct to state Ireland is located within the area of the British Isles

Scofflaw

Do NOT start a round of the "British Isles" game, because you'll all get banned. It doesn't mean anything, and it's not a real discussion - it's an exercise in flag-waving and tribal totemism.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Head The Wall

pseudofax wrote: »

It's not individual German people who caused this mess, nor most of the Government of the German nation, it's the fault of the brains of the EU project, the brains of this operation known as the euro single currency, based in frankfurt, Germany.

Years ago, Ireland created and printed/issued our own currency at variable interest rates to ultimately control and manipulate our internal market. If there was danger of a boom, we could simple raise the interest rates of borrowing to prevent a situation whereby idiots are borrowing at stupidly low interest rates, racking up huge debts, then causing a collapse.

When the euro was introduced, we could no longer control our spending patterns, not even the Government, so a crash was an inevitable eventuality of joining the Euro. Frankfurt didn't secure enough of these loans, which faciliated massive fraud in the domestic Irish economy, leading to the situation today, where ultimately, Germany is the net benefactor.



Never said it was. But the European Central Bank, the entity our Government is paying billions to, is operated and controlled from Frankfurt in the German Republic, no? It's not the ordinary German people that caused this, it's the ECB and the EU elites. Ordinary German people aren't to blame. The financial criminals are.



Why didn't the Germans secure these loans before they handed em out like smarties?



It's common knowledge that the German EU, the Irish Government, and the ECB/IMF are shafting ordinary people in this country. It's been broadcast through every media outlet for the past two, years. Would you accept that sentiment? Again I stress, it's not ordinary german people who are to blame, it's the ECB in Frankfurt, the Irish Government, and the EU/IMF.

You need to go and find out your facts properly before you come on here spouting tripe of which you patently know nothing about. Boskowski is correct in what he posted and your retort is "the ECB is in Germany". The simple fact is that it was the irish govt that cocked things up, it may have passed you by but not every country in the Euro has got themselves in the situation we have even though they also lost control of their currencys when they joined the Euro. If the Euro was designed so badly then all countries would be as bad as we are but they are not.

Boskowski

pseudofax wrote: »

It's common knowledge that the German EU, the Irish Government, and the ECB/IMF are shafting ordinary people in this country. It's been broadcast through every media outlet for the past two, years. Would you accept that sentiment? Again I stress, it's not ordinary german people who are to blame, it's the ECB in Frankfurt, the Irish Government, and the EU/IMF.

I appreciate you engaging in a civil debate especially when I may have come across a little strong, but I'm afraid your claiming 'it is common knowledge' does not pass as evidence.

People have claimed this in the past referring to that infamous 'list of bond-holders' which is a list of dozens if not hundreds of financial institutions. Of course there are a few German institutions amongst them, but as it happens German and French banks are grossly underrepresented in that list. As in half a dozen between hundreds of banks and pension funds an whatnots, most of them from the Anglo-American sphere.
In any case big corporates aren't really national institutions and haven't been for a long time. The net of finance is a maze and no bank or fund or anything is really German or British or American or Asian anymore. They all hold interest in each other and I guess to unravel it all would take years and the result of that would be people finding out there are no nations in finance. Banks are worldwide organizations not 'hindered' by national boundaries and the only thing they are answering to are their shareholders and their common urge for profit.

Also what I would say to your reply is that nobody coerced Ireland into joining the Euro. It was a decision of the Irish government to do so and there are plenty of examples of EU members who have not joined the Euro and are still fully fledged EU members.
Surely the Irish government must have weighed up things, well aware that the tools of inflation and deflation and independent interest rate setting you mentioned would no longer be available to them. The advantages must have outweighed the disadvantages to them at the time.
Again I fail to see how that was the fault of the EU or the Germans. It was a conscious decision of the Irish government to join the circle of tighter EU integration.

be well

maddragon

Sorry lads, can't blame the Brits or now the Germans for this monster balls up we are now in. It's certainly true that joining the Euro when our economic cycle was out of sync with mainland Europe led to our ridiculous property boom but our own government and most of the population were enthusiastic cheerleaders for this. We then failed spectacularly to manage the bubble with our own PM telling people worried about the price of property to go and kill themselves. Blaming the Germans for lending us the money is like blaming Diageo if you had a few pints and then drove home and ran someone over.

Back to the OP, I believe our problems since independence can be laid squarely at the feet of Dev and his lunatic affiliation to the church and his attitude to Britain during the Anglo Irish trade war and neutrality in WWII. Going back into the UK won't happen nor should it but hopefully this crisis will have the consequence of finally developing a mature democracy here. Better late than never.

Nollog

Most expensive?
Are they adjusting for inflation or just using raw figures?
And since the great depression isn't leaving much to compare with, when's the last time a country needed any kind of financial help apart from the countries who don't get it (third world)?
The article you linked is a white page to me, so maybe they answered that already.
Sounds more than a bit sensationalist to me, just from your summing up of it.

thecommietommy

pseudofax wrote: »

Are you trying to argue that a small loan from the IMF to the UK In the seventies(even considering inflation) is evidence that they can't run their country? Ireland per head of capita has borrowed the largest amount of money for this "bailout" in the history of the IMF and their associates.

If it was a only "a small loan from the IMF to the UK", then why was did that economic utopia the UK have to turn to the IMF in the first place !!! Because it was bankrupt and couldn't raise the money on the international markets - simples.

That isn't much to be proud of. I grew up here during the 80's, so it's not like I pretend the other countries are perfect, they ain't, but we're seriously going down a bad path with this bailout. What should have happened, is the bank write off in 2008 was not passed, every Irish financial criminal jailed for life, and the Germans told to fcuk off back to where they came from despite their massive gambling losses.

Yes, and the Brits and the French don't you think ? And since Germany, France and Britain have been mentioned, should we not have followed the British and American models of "light touch" regulation from 2002 - which has landed us in the mess we are in now ? Remember, it was British banks first such as RBS Ireland, Halifax etc that introuduced 100% mortages etc which gave Seanie Fitz and the rest of them a stick to lobby the govt for less regulation fueling the property boom economic mess :mad:

Of course, the higher ups knew our nation is too soft for real change, so they decided to financially rape this country:rolleyes: The fact you have Ahern, Cowen and all these other clowns enjoying their undeserved pensions while walking around as free men, serves to undermine this country 100%

Agreed, but then we're not the only country that rewards political incompetence are we. The UK state had to step in alos to save their banks - don't see Tony and co. losing their pensions ? ( And let's not mention bombing Iraq into oblivion with the excuse of weapons of mass destruction or MP's expenses scandals etc)

thecommietommy

pseudofax wrote: »

That HDI is a load of bollocks tbh. How do you even quantify "HDI"? Cue rooms of pseudoscientists known as "humanities students" creating tenuous relationships between disparate variables, to then proclaim a country measures as "high", "low", or "worse". It's common sense which countries qualify as first, second, and third world. You don't need a booklet of poorly researched nonsense for that. It's called "social" science for a reason! Social Science does not Qualify as scientific. Therefore, these stats are rubbish and meaningless. The UK has a percieved unemployment rate of roughly 8%. Ireland is a tiny nation with little over 4 million people, yet we have 15% unemployment and perhaps higher due to Government statistics fraud. The UK has 60 million people, yet manage somewhat reasonable if medium levels of unemployment.

The HDI is an independent analysis by the UN every year since 1990. Like all gathering of stats it can be accused of inacuracies, though doubtless you'd be cheering it's findings if it had Britain at 7 and Ireland at 28. However stats gathered by the British govt about it's own economy, are according to you, to be nothing but the truth - dream on

Scofflaw

/\/ollog wrote: »

Most expensive?
Are they adjusting for inflation or just using raw figures?
And since the great depression isn't leaving much to compare with, when's the last time a country needed any kind of financial help apart from the countries who don't get it (third world)?
The article you linked is a white page to me, so maybe they answered that already.
Sounds more than a bit sensationalist to me, just from your summing up of it.

To be fair, the IMF, in one of their troika reports on Ireland, described it as the third most expensive bank bailout of the last fourty years:

Together with the €46.3 billion previously injected, this brings the use of public resources for recapitalization to about 42 percent of GDP. Only two banking crisis in the last four decades (Argentina in 1980 and Indonesia in 1997) are estimated to have had a significantly larger gross fiscal cost,

cordially,
Scofflaw