Indoor aerial for Saorview

Brian CivilEng

Hey, I just moved in to a new flat in Raheny, Dublin 5. It is wired for Sky which I don't want to take up, luckily though that means that I get BBC and the other British channels. However I can't get RTÉ. I've picked up Saorview on a coat hanger before elsewhere in Raheny, however this flat is on the exact opposite side of the building from my line of sight to 3 Rock and Kippure, and I'm only on the first floor so the coathanger didn't work.

Anyway, I'm in the market for a good indoor aerial. What type do people recommend? Unfortunately, good indoor aerials don't appear to be on sale any more. Everywhere I look seems to have the one4all powered rabbit ears, am I wrong or are rabbit ears just suitable for the old VHF transmissions so worthless for Saorview. I remember picking up crystal clear analogue RTÉ on a settop aerial that looked like a miniature version of the one you'd have on your roof, but I can't find that type on sale anywhere local (tried Powercity and Tesco).

Perhaps the building is going to block any usable signal and this is a lost cause. It seems a bit ridiculous that I'd have to pay for Sky to get RTÉ, but I'll enjoy my crystal clear BBC until this is sorted.

Cheers in advance for your help.

Ronnie Raygun

A few of those aerials here, probably won't be much help in your case tbh.

winston_1

Once again it has to be repeated that the TV network is designed for outdoor aerials 10 metres high. Ask your landlord for a proper aerial or find another flat.

Mezcita

winston_1 wrote: »

Once again it has to be repeated that the TV network is designed for outdoor aerials 10 metres high. Ask your landlord for a proper aerial or find another flat.

Not the landlord's responsibility.

winston_1

Maybe not. But the OP still has the option of asking or finding another flat as I suggested. If all the tenants did this the landlord may decide to install an aerial.

Brian CivilEng

winston_1 wrote: »

Once again it has to be repeated that the TV network is designed for outdoor aerials 10 metres high.

Ah now if we lived life constrained by design standards it would be pretty boring. There's folks on boards who could figure out how to get a decent signal using nothing but a plastic spoon while sitting in a Faraday cage.

I can pick up a saorview signal on my laptop at the coffee shop around the corner using a mini telescopic aerial stuck on the window with a suction cup. That says to me that €20 worth of an indoor aerial and a few hours experimenting with signals around the flat could be a fun day.

Sam Russell

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I can pick up a saorview signal on my laptop at the coffee shop around the corner using a mini telescopic aerial stuck on the window with a suction cup. That says to me that €20 worth of an indoor aerial and a few hours experimenting with signals around the flat could be a fun day.

How much fun can one have around a flat on one's own with a suction cup?:D

Dave_Dublin

This one has worked fine for me for over a year...

€25 at any Argos


(no I don't work for Argos or the company that makes this aerial)

Brian CivilEng

Picked up this one in powercity

http://www.powercity.ie/?par=30-72-A3103B&pages=1&prod=A3103B&brands=LLOYTRON&image=

Seems to be working alright, for now.

jonnygee

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

A few of those aerials here, probably won't be much help in your case tbh.

Im not a fan of the current trend of indoor aerials, many of which are nothing more than an amplified loop of thin wire encased in plastic, but if they work for their buyers then fair enough.
Among the list that you link to I must recommend the antiference silver sensor as i have found it to be an excellent little aerial, the best i have used in fact.
It mightnt be the most modern looking but boy can it pull in a signal.
Dont know if anyone stocks this nowadays but if anyone needs an indoor aerial and can find one of these then they could do worse than try it out.

winston_1

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Ah now if we lived life constrained by design standards it would be pretty boring. There's folks on boards who could figure out how to get a decent signal using nothing but a plastic spoon while sitting in a Faraday cage.

I can pick up a saorview signal on my laptop at the coffee shop around the corner using a mini telescopic aerial stuck on the window with a suction cup. That says to me that €20 worth of an indoor aerial and a few hours experimenting with signals around the flat could be a fun day.

I've had fun days like that in hotel rooms etc, but is not something I would recommend for a permanent installation.

paddy147

All you need to do is buy one of these for a fiver.

Job done.:D

Pictures show the "proof" that it perfectly picks up Saorview.

Peter Rhea

It 'perfectly picks up Saorview' because you just happened to find an area of strong signal to place it in.

You shouldn't suggest something like this as some kind of magic solution that will work for everyone, as you already have on several threads.

winston_1

It is also mis described as there is no such thing as a DVB-T aerial or digital aerial.

It's a VHF/UHF aerial and not a very good one at that. Zero gain and little directivity.

The 28dB amplifier is a waste of time and will just amplify the local noise, not improve signal to noise ratio.

paddy147

Peter Rhea wrote: »

It 'perfectly picks up Saorview' because you just happened to find an area of strong signal to place it in.

You shouldn't suggest something like this as some kind of magic solution that will work for everyone, as you already have on several threads.

The OP only lives down the road from me.

So yes,Im right to suggest this aerial,as its an indoor aerial and it works.:D

paddy147

winston_1 wrote: »

It is also mis described as there is no such thing as a DVB-T aerial or digital aerial.

It's a VHF/UHF aerial and not a very good one at that. Zero gain and little directivity.

The 28dB amplifier is a waste of time and will just amplify the local noise, not improve signal to noise ratio.

Well amazingly it works perfeectly well for recieving Saorview for me,as Im in Dublin.Pic and sound quality is fantastic.

I also bought 2 more for family members,one who lives in Sutton and another who loves out in Bray,and both their aerials work fine to,for recieving Saorview.

But I forgot,you know better though.:rolleyes:

Peter Rhea

paddy147 wrote: »

The OP only lives down the road from me.

Down the road? It's possible you could move your aerial a few feet out of position & it will lose reception, never mind 'down the road'.

coylemj

Most of those aerials are 'one size fits all' and someone of then even mention DAB radio! For Saorview what you need is a UHF aerial, preferably one which does not mention VHF or any other part of the spectrum. The fact that people have some of these UHF/VHF/DAB aerials and they work just means they have a strong signal, nothing else. A pair of rabbit's ears or a twisted wire hanger would probably work just as well if the signal is that good that one of those aerials works.

paddy147

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Down the road? It's possible you could move your aerial a few feet out of position & it will lose reception, never mind 'down the road'.

Funny how the aerial works in all locations of the house,tried it upstairs in the various bedroom,and even out in the kitchen.

Guess what?

It works perfect in all locations.:)

Great value for a fiver.:D

The Cush

paddy147 wrote: »

Funny how the aerial works in all locations of the house,tried it upstairs in the various bedroom,and even out in the kitchen.

Guess what?

It works perfect in all locations.:)

Great value for a fiver.:D

It will work for some and not for others. Lots of posts in the forum over the last year or so who have tried indoor aerials even in the centre of Dublin that will receive a signal or won't receive anything at all or intermittant reception.

See RTÉNL Saorview's comments regarding indoor aerials - http://www.rtenl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/RTÉNL-SAORVIEW-FAQs-May-2012-Rev-7.1.pdf (section 8.2, page 22)

lawhec

coylemj wrote: »

Most of those aerials are 'one size fits all' and someone of then even mention DAB radio! For Saorview what you need is a UHF aerial, preferably one which does not mention VHF or any other part of the spectrum. The fact that people have some of these UHF/VHF/DAB aerials and they work just means they have a strong signal, nothing else. A pair of rabbit's ears or a twisted wire hanger would probably work just as well if the signal is that good that one of those aerials works.

Most such aerials have the loop element to act on UHF frequencies and the telescopic whips for VHF frequencies. Extending the whips should provide no enhancement for UHF reception.

The UHF loop is meant to work on a basis similar to tuned loop aerials used by LW/MW/SW DXers where they react to the magnetic field of the signal rather than the electric field, but are untuned and are generally 'wideband' to cover the UHF broadcast band with a figure 8 directional pattern - which can be problematic in dealing with ghosting on analogue signals but not usually of much concern with digital. I've never really been convinced much by UHF loops, though that is probably down to bad experiences with them on analogue portables in the past.

Amps on indoor aerials pretty much need to be shot with a ball of their own shíte - there's very few cases where they will prove to be the silver bullet between reception and none, and I can only think of the following where they help - active balun matching, where the balun inside the aerial is electrically matched, could be useful at the edges of UHF bands, but likely offer very little/no improvement otherwise - downlead compensation, in cases like one poster had a few days ago where he was looking to add a five metre extension cable to an indoor aerial, a small amount of amplification e.g. 3db especially if it's not a great cable could prove useful enough to overcome connection and lead losses. But if you're not using any extension leads then the losses between the aerial and the socket on the receiver is insignificant - overcoming tuner noise, if the amp has a lower noise rating than the UHF tuner, you could squeeze a couple more db again but most indoor amplified aerials don't emphasise low noise on their amps and most UHF tuners these days have brought their noise figures well down - finally, lifting a weak but "clean" signal above the receiver voltage threshold. This is going to be for nearly everyone a load of black magic as you're stepping into the unknown unless you have something like spectrum analysing gear that a professional installer would have. I confess that this last bit has worked for me in the past with an attic aerial, but the pitfalls are there with a fine line between success and failure; you need to have a low noise environment in the first place. Second you need just the right amount of gain to get it right, too little won't work and too much can make noise levels too high and the S/N ratio thrashed. And if you do get it right, the signal will be brittle; as you amplify that and the noise and any interference that strikes the aerial e.g. impulse interference and reception won't be 100% all the time but it's better than nothing. But it is worth stating that with all black magic, some can give results, many do not.

My advice? If you must go for an indoor aerial, try getting one that looks like a mini yagi or log-periodic which doesn't have any telescopic bits or amplifiers. They'll be cheap (£/€2-10), if they don't work an amp is unlikely to make much difference and the money difference in otherwise splashing out on some €30 on a piece of plastic and metal that appears to gives promises that will give reception that will knock a Televes DAT75 on a 20 metre pole on your chimney into a cocked hat can be put towards a properly installed outdoor aerial - or at the very very least, an attic install.

There's a good article here about the simple differences between the installation of what most installers would regard as one step up from a 'contract' aerial with one of the more better regarded indoor aerials about.

lawhec

paddy147 wrote: »

Funny how the aerial works in all locations of the house,tried it upstairs in the various bedroom,and even out in the kitchen.

Guess what?

It works perfect in all locations.:)

Great value for a fiver.:D

Congratulations then seems to be in order then, you must be one of the lucky few to live in an area swamped with a signal so strong that sticking a kitchen fork into the aerial socket* will likely be enough. I've been in a bar in Trillick, Co. Tyrone which lies at the foot of Brougher Mountain where they can show clear analogue tv pictures without anything connected to the aerial socket at the back of the TV. Some lucky, lucky people can get away with that.

However just because you have success with an indoor aerial in your experience does not automatically mean that anyone or everyone else can, even if they live close by. Both RTÉNL and Arqiva generally publish coverage maps or coverage details that define reception within a 100 metre by 100 metre square. Even in an urban area that is not terribly big, and it is not terribly difficult to find on the Saorview coverage checker very small holes in reception that are one square (100m x 100m) where coverage suddenly dips yet is surrounded by a sea of green. I'm not sure about RTÉNL but I know Arqiva have coverage prediction software that they feel is good enough to map down to a single square metre but they don't normally publish that for public consumption. It is therefore perfectly possible that you can have good indoor reception while a neighbour 50 metres down the road will not have such luck.

RF reception is often a black art; even more so when attempts are made in what is normally regarded as a difficult environment to receive. If people recommend a roof-mounted aerial it is for simple reasons; namely that it will have a more reliable and predictable reception path, it can easily serve several receivers either through passive splitting or a distribution amp, it will have much better immunity to interference and people walking about, and if done properly and with a minimum amount of discretion, downlead cables to the receiver(s) will be more out of sight and mind than any indoor aerial.

To paraphrase an old school phrase that went around in my time; I believe that you can get good indoor Saorview reception. But thousands can't.


P.S. If the boards.ie legal team or any of the mods are reading this thread, or if you're just reading this right now, I don't advise anyone to stick a kitchen fork into their aerial socket. It's quite possible that no harm will be done to you, but if something happens it's your own fault and advise your next of kin beforehand to enter you afterwards into the 2012 Darwin Awards.

foggy_lad

I am using This Aerial without the amplification and my signal intensity is 80-82% and signal quality is a very stable 90% as long as I keep the aerial pointed/facing Mount Leinster, Before i got this i was using a standard old tele-vee aerial and reception was very hit 'n miss with digital being unwatchable most of the time.

Many people with vested interests are pushing people to go for expensive outdoor installations which are not always necessary, but it keeps them in work and the repairs in a year or two will add to their coffers.

People should try an indoor Aerial first imho and if not successful they can go for a cheap outdoor installation with an aerial costing as little as €15 including bracket and cable and a few euro for a handiman to fix it to the wall and connect it up.

Extinction

Saorview have no vested interest in the sale of aerials yet they say

'You may be able to get SAORVIEW with your set-top-aerial but this is not guaranteed to work. Ideally you need a rooftop UHF aerial to get SAORVIEW.'

http://www.saorview.ie/help-support/faqs/aerials/

Why do you think they say 'Ideally you need a rooftop aerial' and how is following Saorview recommendations considered a vested interest?

Peter Rhea

Another post full of rubbish, thanks for that foggy_lad.

winston_1

Yet another poster with a grotty loop aerial who thinks he knows it all just because he is in a strong signal area.

What puzzles me about this expert is that he claims an outdoor aerial with bracket and cable is 15 euros and a few euros for a handyman to install it. Assuming a few is say 10 that makes 25 euros. So why on earth did he spend 32 euros on a so called aerial digital (mis described as there is no such thing)?

Incidently the last aerial I saw installed by a handyman I had to take down and replace as it gave a blocky freezing picture. I got called in as the owner thought his box was faulty as the aerial had only recently been installed. It was a wideband instead of the correct group, it was mounted horizontally in a vertical polorisation area, and the fixings were so flimsy it would have come down anyway in the first gale. And yes it was cheap nasty coax. After I replaced it properly excellent results were obtained and the owners wallet was a lot more than 25 euros lighter but he was a happy bunny.

lawhec

foggy_lad wrote: »

Many people with vested interests are pushing people to go for expensive outdoor installations which are not always necessary, but it keeps them in work and the repairs in a year or two will add to their coffers.

People should try an indoor Aerial first imho and if not successful they can go for a cheap outdoor installation with an aerial costing as little as €15 including bracket and cable and a few euro for a handiman to fix it to the wall and connect it up.

Extinction

The entire post could be picked apart, this is the line that puzzles me 'keeps them in work and the repairs in a year or two will add to their coffers' How could there be repairs in two years time with a properly installed aerial? Sure a handymans job will fall down around your ears within 2 years but realistically you would get nearer 10 years from an external aerial fitted properly.

This was included in information sent to retailers by Saorview this week

We have also introduced a new 15 second ad on RTÉ One and RTÉ Two this week, which focuses entirely on what you need to make the switch, featuring clear images of a UHF aerial, Saorview Approved box and TV. This ad will help to clarify the aerial and equipment requirements for consumers.

You might take a look at the ads paddy & Foggy and report back your findings

Storm 10

I am in Galway and have a proper outdoor aerial pointed at Maghera, my picture quality is 100% and signal quality is 96% , just wondering if I moved the aerial slightly could I get 100% on the signal quality as well, just a query, I am happy with the reception but RTE 1 could be better.

Peter Rhea

All the Saorview channels are contained within a single 8 mHz UHF channel, you can't improve the reception on RTE1 alone unless you're talking about analogue & there wouldn't be a whole lot of point to that at this stage.

Anyway, RTE analogue from Maghera is vertically polarised band III VHF.

Ronnie Raygun

Storm 10 wrote: »

I am in Galway and have a proper outdoor aerial pointed at Maghera, my picture quality is 100% and signal quality is 96% , just wondering if I moved the aerial slightly could I get 100% on the signal quality as well, just a query, I am happy with the reception but RTE 1 could be better.

Remember this thread?

Capt'n Midnight

aldi are doing this thing for €30
http://www.aldi.ie/ie/html/offers/special_buys3_22582.htm

probably too flimsy for outdoor use

if it's too big remove the front section and trim back the reflectors by removing some of the 4 bars.

double check there aren't any existing aerials or cables you can tap into



http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/tuning-saorview/