do i need a power meter?

lennymc

well, do i?

Im currently racing a4, and want to get to a3 next year. On flat races I can hang with the bunch, on hills, i can sometimes hang on, and sometimes blow up.
This year my training mainly focused on the pyrenees, and endurance and stuff, and i only decided in March that i would go racing (and discovered how awesome it is). I have a few training guides and stuff, and a lot of them talk about power meters as the best way to guage your training. I currently use an edge 500 with HRM and love analysing the ride on strava afterwards. Is it enough to train with a HRM like I have been doing, or should i look to get a power meter aswell. If I do get one it will be a hub meter as I have no money

Thoughts, suggestions, experiences etc welcome.
thanks,
Lenny

DirkVoodoo

I think the main issue is cost. If you can justify that, then why not.

Obviously there are limiting factors: A hub based power meter limits your wheel choices as you are best using a power meter (IMO) for training than for racing unless you are pacing yourself for TT efforts. A training wheel will not always make a good race wheel and vice-versa.

Similarly, a crank based system may limit your choice of cranksets. I'm guessing for the pyrenees you will be using a compact, which isn't always suitable for racing, although with a 50-36 and an 11-23 you aren't as hindered.

I'd love a power meter, but not right now. I just need to cycle more. I think when you get to the extreme end of the sport where diminishing returns mean every increment might be the difference between losing and winning, you are probably better served with one. Number-junkies aside, most people could benefit from simply following a more structured training plan with intervals, using HR alone. It's nice to think "a power meter is what I need to really progress", but is it always the case?

lennymc

i should have added that I will be attempting to stick to a structured training plan over the winter in preperation for next year, as well as trying to loose a few more Kgs.

Dirk, thanks for the response. I could probably justify the cost, as I dont smoke and occasionally drink. Biking is my main vice, and my birthday is coming up and my wife is very understanding I dont know if a power meter is what i need to progress, but i do wonder if I know i can make x power for y time, then will i just look at the numbers and push it a bit more.

I do agree with the training v racing wheels comment, im not sure what benefit there would be to having a power meter in a race (but i have very limited experience, so maybe there is something that Im not seeing)...

DirkVoodoo

lennymc wrote: »

i should have added that I will be attempting to stick to a structured training plan over the winter in preperation for next year, as well as trying to loose a few more Kgs.

Dirk, thanks for the response. I could probably justify the cost, as I dont smoke and occasionally drink. Biking is my main vice, and my birthday is coming up and my wife is very understanding I dont know if a power meter is what i need to progress, but i do wonder if I know i can make x power for y time, then will i just look at the numbers and push it a bit more.

I do agree with the training v racing wheels comment, im not sure what benefit there would be to having a power meter in a race (but i have very limited experience, so maybe there is something that Im not seeing)...

Then do it! If you like the idea of analysing data, have the money and want to further your bike addiction, I can't see a reason not to. I'd probably go for a crank based option, Diarmuid on here has a power2max and they look pretty affordable by power meter standards.

Lumen

There are various arguments pro- and con- power meters.

These break down between power meter vs HR vs perceived effort vs just ride your damn bike.

Having ridden with power meters for a couple of years I have mixed views. They answer a lot of questions, like "am I slower than last year or is everyone else faster?", or "was that ride really as tough as it felt?". These answers are interesting but probably useless.

The real question should always be "what should I do today to make myself faster?".

In theory you can model training workload based on numbers coming out of your power meter (stress scores) and this will tell you whether you should be training harder or resting. Unfortunately two people with the same power profile can have totally different capacity for absorbing training, and one person's capacity for training varies over time in all sorts of incomputable ways due to life stress, illness, diet etc. Maths cannot model all of these factors.

In practice I think there's no real substitute for the squishy feedback from your body.

Where I find a power meter most useful is in doing intervals, particularly short ones (<5 minutes) and in confirming when I'm as slow as I feel and need to rest more because I can't make the numbers.

Training aside, I definitely do much better* in races when my power meter is off, and by "off" I don't mean "silently gathering data", I mean completely off with no data being gathered. Even in time trials where I ought to benefit from pacing, I've had better results without a power meter.

(* we're talking degrees of mediocrity here)

doozerie

It's stating the obvious I know but a power meter is an accurate measure of your output, whereas a HRM is just an accurate measure of one factor that influences that output. In theory at least you can focus your training better if you can measure your actual output rather than one of the inputs - at least, that's my fairly simplistic view on training programmes generally. In practice of course, whether a power meter helps you, or how much it helps you, will depend a lot on whether you make proper use of the data the meter is feeding you, and I gather that analysing the data properly is a bit of a skill in itself. Basically, a power meter is a tool, rather than an end in itself, that is only as useful as you make it.

Personally I'd be interested in trying a power meter but I'm not sure I'd have the determination or patience to put the time in to make proper use of it, so I may just end up with a whole bunch of diverting stats that I occasionally glance at but don't feed back into a training plan. As such a power meter might well ultimately be wasted on someone like me. For that reason I've often thought that paying a coach would be a better investment at least initially (though I'd be upset if the first thing a coach asked for was a set of power meter stats on a regular basis ), but that's also 'cos I suck at devising a structured training plan.

Lumen

A coach may like to see the power numbers because he can't feel what you feel - objective data makes the job superficially easier.

Unfortunately the reason we're crap is probably not because we lack accurate data, it's because we lack talent or simply can't be arsed to do the things we know would make us faster.

8kvscdpglqnyr4

I've thought about buying a power meter but can't justify it. I did all my winter turbo training using this:
http://www.trainerroad.com
If you have a Garmin Edge 500 with speed/cadence sensor, then you'll be able to train with "virtual" power. There are know speed/power curves for trainers out there - you just tell the software what trainer your on and it takes car of the rest.
It's really fantastic. You need your trainer setup in front of a laptop though ... not a problem for most.

It's a great alternative to spending €1,000 on a power meter. Obviously you can't use it on the road which is a drawback. It's a great way to monitor your progress over the winter. It's excellent for interval work or for dedicated workouts (there are over 100 workouts to chose from)

manwithaplan

I was an advocate of 'just ride your damn bike' and, for someone in the foothills of their development as a cyclist, I still think it's the best advice. I wasted no time messing around with numbers and spent more time in the saddle.

Now that I'm a bit better, I want to train with a little more structure and my new HRM will probably help. Powermeters are scary and I don't have the time or the interest to engage with them properly. I have vaguely thought of getting a bit of coaching next year and maybe a PM might be required then but the money is also a significant deterrent.

I would say that if you like numbers and will put the effort into using your PM effectively, go for it. If it will add to the fun of riding your bike, so much the better. The main thing at your stage is to get out on your bike and ride.

BryanL

You guys make me sick.
Can you justify the costs? Training benefit?Will your Wife understand?

The answer to all the questions below is YES!!!!!!

Should I go Carbon?
Do I need Deeper Section Wheels?
Do my jockey wheels need Ceramic Bearings?
Will gadgets help?
Do I really need another bike?
Is it okay to commute in a Skin Suit?
Should I live by the Euro Road Rules?
Should I hand in my notice at work to concentrate on the bike?.....................
Could I have made it as a Pro?

doozerie

Lumen wrote:

Unfortunately the reason we're crap is probably not because we lack accurate data,...

NOOOOOoooooooooo!!!

petethedrummer

What sort of training are you doing?
Are you focusing on where you are weak?
Are you going for aimless 6 hour rides at the weekend?
Are you training with riders who are better than you where you are weak?

I have two regular training partners, one is better than me on the flat and one is better than me in the hills. I was going great guns till I got a chest infection earlier in the year. Still Recovering!


Of the two pros I would listen to on these matters;
Greg Lemond advocates power meters.
Graeme Obree advocates setting up a testing rig. Using a home modified turbo trainer and a bike permanently attached to it, to eliminate measurement error as much as possible.

Obree's book really is worth a read. He cuts through alot of the nonsense you hear about training, diet and recovery.

lennymc

petethedrummer wrote: »

What sort of training are you doing?

intervals, hills, recovery, league and open races. I think my training is all over the place, and i have no structured approach to it.

petethedrummer wrote: »

Are you focusing on where you are weak?

yes (i think). Hills are were i find i have problems keeping with the bunch in races, so i try to push on and go up hills a bit harder than when not going up hills.

petethedrummer wrote: »

Are you going for aimless 6 hour rides at the weekend?

sometimes. other times I dont.

petethedrummer wrote: »

Are you training with riders who are better than you where you are weak?

yes. I regularly have to push hard to try to catch the guys i train with on hills and drags.

petethedrummer wrote: »

Of the two pros I would listen to on these matters;
Greg Lemond advocates power meters.
Graeme Obree advocates setting up a testing rig. Using a home modified turbo trainer and a bike permanently attached to it, to eliminate measurement error as much as possible.

Obree's book really is worth a read. He cuts through alot of the nonsense you hear about training, diet and recovery.

thanks!

Lusk Doyle

I'm going to go with a big NO, you do not need a power meter. Why? Take me as an example - I joined Swords in October/November of 2010 and raced in the club league last year for the first time. I spent many races getting shelled out the back of groups, etc. No bother, I worked through the winter afterwards and did some fairly intense training in the early part of this year with nothing but a garmin and a hr monitor. To be honest, I don't pay much attention to the data other than the cadence and speeds. Zone training doesn't even figure for me. The result? I'm currently top of our club league through sheer bloody hard work.

You don't need a power meter. Buy beer instead.

Beasty

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

You don't need a power meter.

He may not "need" one, but the fact he's asked the question means he'll probably end up with one;)

To put the counter argument - I reckon access to power data has allowed me to get a lot better a lot quicker than if I had not had one. Who knows I may have got there anyway, but I suspect it would have taken a lot longer without the means to objectively measure progress. In terms of TTs in particular, they are great for pacing and understanding what your potential is without risking a major blow-up. If you're prepared to put the effort into understanding what all the figures mean, a PM can be a great tool

I've not used a PM in "proper" racing so far this season, and can't say I've particularly missed it. However in terms of planning workloads and "peaking" for races I find power data invaluable. Lusk_Doyle may be top of the league (although I'm not entirely certain about that;)), but Beasty has picked up more medals and trophies than him so far this year

Ultimately though, it's a matter of "horses for courses" - power data is useless unless you have an analytical mind and take the trouble to understand it (or have a coach to do this for you). Some riders, such as Lusk_Doyle, are perfectly able to get there by "listening to their body"

petethedrummer

lennymc wrote: »

intervals, hills, recovery, league and open races. I think my training is all over the place, and i have no structured approach to it.

yes (i think). Hills are were i find i have problems keeping with the bunch in races, so i try to push on and go up hills a bit harder than when not going up hills.
sometimes. other times I dont.
yes. I regularly have to push hard to try to catch the guys i train with on hills and drags.

I have no idea then! It sounds like my training regime.

Are you warming up before races. I need a very long warm up or else I get destroyed (no matter what sport it is). Are you laying off the training coming up to a race?

lennymc

warm up of about 10 minutes, couple of sprints, bit of spinning. i will generally try to take the day before a race off, and not do anything.

Maybe I need to rephrase my orginal question and instead ask "how should I go about training sufficiently so that I can get up to a3 level"

Maybe Ill go talk to a coach.

mcgratheoin

lennymc wrote: »

Is it enough to train with a HRM like I have been doing

Yes.

http://bikehugger.com/post/view/put-down-that-power-meter-euge

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2009&issue=03000&article=00034&type=abstract

levitronix

I train with power and this year i started to race with a powermeter also

I think it all depends on how much time you have, if you have lots of time 12-14 hours a week and want to be competitve id say heart rate will do.
But if your like me and time is really tight (sometimes only geting 6hours weekly) and you want to be competitive in A3 a powermeter will really help you nail your intervals and get you there

DirkVoodoo

lennymc wrote: »

Maybe Ill go talk to a coach.

Probably a better use of your money for next year, structured training then powermeter.

Of course, his first bit of advice might be "get a powermeter".

levitronix

A coach will deffo help but also the software is great, you can pin point where you got dropped or went off to hard or what it would of took to stay in the lead group on a climb

Lusk Doyle

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Probably a better use of your money for next year, structured training then powermeter.

Of course, his first bit of advice might be "get a powermeter".

To which you will reply "I can't afford one!"

To which he will then reply "I have one that I'll let you have for a reduced price." without adding that the only reason he is letting it go is because he never uses it and that for a plebian like most us we won't be able to tell the actual effect that it has / does not have on our riding!

Lusk Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

I've not used a PM in "proper" racing so far this season, and can't say I've particularly missed it. However in terms of planning workloads and "peaking" for races I find power data invaluable. Lusk_Doyle may be top of the league (although I'm not entirely certain about that;)), but Beasty has picked up more medals and trophies than him so far this year

The geriatric league doesn't count when making that argument :pac:

Beasty wrote: »

Ultimately though, it's a matter of "horses for courses" - power data is useless unless you have an analytical mind and take the trouble to understand it (or have a coach to do this for you). Some riders, such as Lusk_Doyle, are perfectly able to get there by "listening to their body"

It's actually Lusk Doyle. There is no "_". I got rid of it to save weight! Another thing one should look at before investing in gadgets!

Also, I'm not sure what my body tells me but what I do is ride as hard as I can for as long as I can. Also, intervals are good and that's what Strava segments are for!

DirkVoodoo

levitronix wrote: »

A coach will deffo help but also the software is great, you can pin point where you got dropped or went off to hard or what it would of took to stay in the lead group on a climb

Your power meter won't tell you what to do on a saturday, or tell you to get out of bed and get on the bike. The macro view of training needs to be tackled first, without getting into specifics of power output sprinting out of corners or uphill. If you don't have a structured plan to begin with, a power meter isn't going to help you make better use of your time. You will still go out on a saturday and wander around aimlessly. You'll just be better able to quantify how aimless you were.

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Your power meter won't tell you what to do on a saturday

It will tell you to do VO2Max intervals. It always tells you to do VO2Max intervals.

Hand on heart, I think I've done zero proper VO2Max interval sessions in my life. And by proper I mean something like 6x4 minutes flat out with proper timed rest periods.

A couple of times I did 3x3 and that was unpleasant enough. Or maybe it was 3x5, I forget. I've tried to block out the memory.

12 sprocket

petethedrummer wrote: »

What sort of training are you doing?
Are you focusing on where you are weak?
Are you going for aimless 6 hour rides at the weekend?
Are you training with riders who are better than you where you are weak?

I have two regular training partners, one is better than me on the flat and one is better than me in the hills. I was going great guns till I got a chest infection earlier in the year. Still Recovering!


Has it occured to you that your choice of training partners might have some bearing on your chest infection... Getting hammered by strionger riders too often does not necessarily give improvement and both from a physical and psychological point of view can be damaging.. more pain doesnt always mean more gain!

doozerie

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Yes.

http://bikehugger.com/post/view/put-down-that-power-meter-euge

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2009&issue=03000&article=00034&type=abstract

Interestingly, they say that the group that trained by heart rate in that study trained at a heart rate which corresponded to 80% of their sustainable power, so basically their training regime was calculated based on power measurements/tests. That in no way detracts from the study of course, but it does highlight the usefulness of knowing what your limits are when building a training plan to get the most out of the time you put in. You don't need a power meter for that, but it could help. You also don't need a third party for it but that could help too. Which raises another contender for an investment of money - a decent fitness test that gives you something (e.g. heart rate training zones for you) to shape your training around. Perhaps a coach would carry out such a test for you early on anyway, or perhaps that's a step that you should take before going to a coach.

As already said though, if you can listen to your body and really understand what it is telling you, that's a great skill to have. I've tried listening to my body, but all it did was moan a lot ("Stop, it hurts!", "I wanna go home!", etc.) so I put it on mute.

manwithaplan

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

The result? I'm currently top of our club league through sheer bloody hard work through being in the wrong group.

Fixed that for you

Esroh

lennymc wrote: »

well, do i?

Im currently racing a4, and want to get to a3 next year. On flat races I can hang with the bunch, on hills, i can sometimes hang on, and sometimes blow up.
This year my training mainly focused on the pyrenees, and endurance and stuff, and i only decided in March that i would go racing (and discovered how awesome it is). I have a few training guides and stuff, and a lot of them talk about power meters as the best way to guage your training. I currently use an edge 500 with HRM and love analysing the ride on strava afterwards. Is it enough to train with a HRM like I have been doing, or should i look to get a power meter aswell. If I do get one it will be a hub meter as I have no money

Thoughts, suggestions, experiences etc welcome.
thanks,
Lenny

You want to be A3. A few years ago you would have been 1 when A4 did not exist. Are you willing to work hard enough to be one.
A power meter will not put structure on your training. Get a Coach 1st

I think the 2nd highlighted piece explains you need/want of a power meter

kumate_champ07

if you have no structure to your training now what happens if you buy an expensive power meter and still have no structure? power meters only benefit you if your training is all planned and you keep to a program

a kurt kinetic road machine/rock n roll is a good alternative but of course you have to train indoors, could be used for tt's and then go outside for longer rides

fat bloke

Came across this a few years ago re power meters


While a power meter is certainly an important tool for a professional cyclist, the bulk of them are of course sold to amateurs who misinterpret their amateur status and poor results as signs that they need to spend a huge amount of money on a power meter when in fact their amateur status and poor results are actually the very reasons they don't need a power meter. If you're an amateur, buying a power meter to train is like hiring an accountant to tell you how broke you are or like buying an iPhone just to check your Cannondale stock. Yet amateurs not only buy power meters, but they think $1,000 for a power meter is actually cheap. Clearly then, I will make a fortune when I introduce my own power meter at next year's Interbike, since it will be the cheapest and most accurate one ever. Yes, for $5 you'll get an LCD display which constantly flashes the message, "You suck."

petethedrummer

12 sprocket wrote: »

Has it occured to you that your choice of training partners might have some bearing on your chest infection... Getting hammered by strionger riders too often does not necessarily give improvement and both from a physical and psychological point of view can be damaging.. more pain doesnt always mean more gain!

I said chest infection as a loose term to describe the situation in my lungs which I can't pinpoint. It may be some form of asthma, which inhalers aren't solving or it may be some form of hayfever with only the restricted breathing symptoms. I'm seeing someone about it on Friday, as it is driving me insane and my GP can't seem to help. I've always been susceptible to chest issues even during the years when I did no exercise. So I don't believe it is as a result of my training. I don't train very heavily anyway.

I wasn't suggesting the OP go and try to keep up with an A1 rider on his training regime and I am in NO WAY an advocate of heavy training schedules. The riders I train with are roughly the same level as me, just better in specific areas. In my post I was just trying to establish what the OP was actually doing during training and if he was trying to improve or just riding around aimlessly.

chakattack

I always find the not good enough/can't justify it now argument (not just for powermeters) a bit stupid.

It's the A1/A+ guys who arguably have the least to gain from a PM. They've already figured out how to make themselves fast and made it to the top (in some respect, no doubt they have their heart set on bigger and better things too).

HR has lots of drawbacks. Too much of a lag compared to effort, very easy to fool yourself into training too hard or too easy.

Inquitus

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

I'm going to go with a big NO, you do not need a power meter. Why? Take me as an example - I joined Swords in October/November of 2010 and raced in the club league last year for the first time. I spent many races getting shelled out the back of groups, etc. No bother, I worked through the winter afterwards and did some fairly intense training in the early part of this year with nothing but a garmin and a hr monitor. To be honest, I don't pay much attention to the data other than the cadence and speeds. Zone training doesn't even figure for me. The result? I'm currently top of our club league through sheer bloody hard work.

You don't need a power meter. Buy beer instead.

I can't afford a power meter, how much is coach doyles training plan? And is it more advanced than get on bike alot and ride it like you stole it?

ROK ON

I have very very strong opinions about data and the perceived need for data. My job depends on analysing data and drawing conclusions from it. As a result of a side interest I have developed a view in the use, I er use and abuse of data.

You need to decide firstly on a training plan that will help you achieve your goal (ie become an A3).

You don't need power or HR to do that, although if you are diligent in terms of the data output from both, then they MAY help.

I would be of the view that a good coach would be worth more than a powermeter, provided they dint require you to have one.

In any walk of life I am wary of trainers that require you to have stuff (other than discipline in order to coach you).

I know some ferociously strong riders that are strong because of approach and deication, not because they have the best gear, bikes, HR and powermeters.

Get in shape and get a good training plan. When you have exhausted the gains from that, then look to add a PM.

Lusk Doyle

manwithaplan wrote: »

Fixed that for you

Eh, two of those events were against the clock my good man! Also, I worked very hard to get into that group!

Lusk Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

I can't afford a power meter, how much is coach doyles training plan? And is it more advanced than get on bike alot and ride it like you stole it?

It's free cos I posted it in it's entirety earlier and no it's no more advanced than that! Works(ish) for me

lennymc

cheers everyone for the feedback. Tis most interesting to see the different views on the techniques and tools to improve. lots of food for thought.

Lusk Doyle

lennymc wrote: »

cheers everyone for the feedback. Tis most interesting to see the different views on the techniques and tools to improve. lots of food for thought.

No food lenny. Just cycle. Jeez, do you listen at all -

fixie fox

ROK ON wrote: »

I would be of the view that a good coach would be worth more than a powermeter ....

Who has one? How does it work? How much?