Pawn Shop Trouble

Fiend-Foe

Hi all,

Have a bit of a problem and I could really do with some advice.

Here's the story, myself and my gf were both unemployed recently. When money was really tight I would pawn my Samsung Galaxy for 2/3 weeks then get it back when things were better.

We always used the same place, typically they would give us €100 and it would cost €140 to get it back and we would have to do so within 28 days. The guy who owns this store is a bit dodgy and would give us different amounts each time, depending on what he had in the till. He would always try to rip my girlfriend off if she brought it in and give her less.

Any the last time she took it in (15/06/12) and he gave her €70 with a buy back price of €100. She asked if it would be for the usual 28 days, this guy knows us by face as we have done this several times. He assured her that yes it would be 28 days.

When I went in today to collect the phone he told me that it had been sold yesterday. He pointed out on the slip that we have that it was due to be collected on the 29th, meaning that we only had 2 weeks to collect it this time. My partner had not noticed this when signing it (silly, I know). And I hadn't looked at it because it had been in her purse all along.

However, the buyback date on the form aside. The instructions/terms and conditions state that you will ALWAYS have 28 days to buy back in all circumstances. And this guy assured my gf that it would be 28 days as per usual, then put down a date only 14 days away.

I have included a scan of the form for you to take a look at.

If anybody could please advise if I have a leg to stand on and if so what should be my next step? I think I really need to do something before the 28 days expire.

I really need to do something if I can, as now I am tied into an 18 month smartphone contract with no smartphone.

Thanks in advance for reading and any help you might have to offer...

foggy_lad

Fiend-Foe wrote: »

Hi all,

Have a bit of a problem and I could really do with some advice.

Here's the story, myself and my gf were both unemployed recently. When money was really tight I would pawn my Samsung Galaxy for 2/3 weeks then get it back when things were better.

We always used the same place, typically they would give us €100 and it would cost €140 to get it back and we would have to do so within 28 days. The guy who owns this store is a bit dodgy and would give us different amounts each time, depending on what he had in the till. He would always try to rip my girlfriend off if she brought it in and give her less.

Any the last time she took it in (15/06/12) and he gave her €70 with a buy back price of €100. She asked if it would be for the usual 28 days, this guy knows us by face as we have done this several times. He assured her that yes it would be 28 days.

When I went in today to collect the phone he told me that it had been sold yesterday. He pointed out on the slip that we have that it was due to be collected on the 29th, meaning that we only had 2 weeks to collect it this time. My partner had not noticed this when signing it (silly, I know). And I hadn't looked at it because it had been in her purse all along.

However, the buyback date on the form aside. The instructions/terms and conditions state that you will ALWAYS have 28 days to buy back in all circumstances. And this guy assured my gf that it would be 28 days as per usual, then put down a date only 14 days away.

I have included a scan of the form for you to take a look at.

If anybody could please advise if I have a leg to stand on and if so what should be my next step? I think I really need to do something before the 28 days expire.

I really need to do something if I can, as now I am tied into an 18 month smartphone contract with no smartphone.

Thanks in advance for reading and any help you might have to offer...

Was this a legal pawnbrokers? there are only three pawnbrokers registered in Ireland, if this was a cash conversion store than i would advise you seek legal advice and possibly report the incident to the Gardai.

Procrastastudy

Don't get involved with these brokers and money lenders. You're better off not eating for a week. Each time you did this is cost you €40. You're better off saving the €40s! Either that or sell it for a couple of hundred on adverts and be done with it. A guy used to do this with his XBOX when I worked for a certain place that took them in. I used to try and refund the poor sod as often as I could but never seemed to sink in. Same as these payday lenders. The fecking mafia would give you a better APR than 1700%.

That said this is quite complicated as you (or the wife) are the sellers here. I really hope there is some consumer legislation to help you but the common law rules on this sort of thing are very unforgiving.

Defo one for someone qualified.

Fiend-Foe

Thanks for your replys lads

foggy_lad wrote: »

Was this a legal pawnbrokers? there are only three pawnbrokers registered in Ireland, if this was a cash conversion store than i would advise you seek legal advice and possibly report the incident to the Gardai.

I guess they are more of a cash converters kind of place, but this dude is fairly dodgy. I thought that the two terms were interchangeable. See the difference you mean though.

May be worth going to the guards before my 28 days are up just so that they can bear witness to the fact that there is a problem and I am acting on it and not just trying to get my goods back after the expiration date.

Other than doing that, I'm not sure if this would be within their remit.

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Don't get involved with these brokers and money lenders. You're better off not eating for a week. Each time you did this is cost you €40. You're better off saving the €40s! Either that or sell it for a couple of hundred on adverts and be done with it. A guy used to do this with his XBOX when I worked for a certain place that took them in. I used to try and refund the poor sod as often as I could but never seemed to sink in. Same as these payday lenders. The fecking mafia would give you a better APR than 1700%.

I know this, and of course you feel a dope for doing it. But sometimes you have to do what you have to. Desperate times etc. Personally can't go for more than 2 days without eating before I try to do something about it.

I take what you said about flogging it on adverts, but as I said I'm tied to the contract for the phone and also need it for my work now. Was surviving with a regular 'dumb' phone in the interim, but need a smartphone to get emails on the move. So this was a short term compromise. Not something I would do in future though. Anyway it's too late to change all that now, here I stand.

Anybody have any idea for the next step? I haven't actually brought it up with the "Pawn Shop" guy as I only noticed the 28 days in the small print after he told me the phone was sold. Should I confront him and see if he will do anything (doubt it), National Consumer Agency, solicitor or Guards?

Thanks for your help, any ideas appreciated

Anthony O Brien

It clearly states on the receipt that you have 28 days for collection

The date for collection was added to the receipt and is a "clerical error"

The shop has to provide you with the same phone in the same or better condition when you go to pay back the €100

Fiend-Foe

Anthony O Brien wrote: »

It clearly states on the receipt that you have 28 days for collection

The date for collection was added to the receipt and is a "clerical error"

The shop has to provide you with the same phone in the same or better condition when you go to pay back the €100

Thanks Anthony. I hope that will be the case. I shall try it tomorrow.

Unfortunately this guy is a bit of a slimeball, if he refuses, which I don't doubt he will, who do I take it to then?

foggy_lad

Fiend-Foe wrote: »

Thanks Anthony. I hope that will be the case. I shall try it tomorrow.

Unfortunately this guy is a bit of a slimeball, if he refuses, which I don't doubt he will, who do I take it to then?

I would try the small claims court.

fasttalkerchat

Tell him that you will cancel the contract and block the phone unless you get your money back. The last thing he wants is a customer coming back thinking the phone is stolen.

chasm

"You have 28 days to reclaim your item :you must pay the amount received and 20% commission before you claim your item
you may extend your time by a further 28 days by paying the 20% commission, please note you will still have to pay the received amount plus 40% on collection"

Why are they charging you 40%? Their small print states it's only 20% within the 28 days, or am i reading that wrong?
Also even at 40% surely the interest should have been €28 not €30?

Procrastastudy

Be careful here before you invest €25 in the small claim court.

The common law rules require consideration (generally money but not always) in return for a promise. You've sold him the phone for €70 and it's become his propretry. He's then made a promise that you can buy it back - what have you given him, in consideration, to make that promise legally binding?

Hopefuly someone will point out I'm wrong by citing the relevant legislation on pawnbrokers or where I have misunderstood consideration. Bear in mind when you sell something you are not, as far as I know, a consumer.

I would try showing the guy the ticket and seeing if he'll co-operate. It's in his interest given you were giving him free €40s every few weeks! Canceling and blocking the phone also seems a good idea but obviously don't lead in with this. The other issue is if the phone is legally his and you do this - he may have a claim against you. Don't get me started on privity of contract as it makes my head hurt.

im invisible

some people have more money than sense:rolleyes:

foggy_lad

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Be careful here before you invest €25 in the small claim court.

The common law rules require consideration (generally money but not always) in return for a promise. You've sold him the phone for €70 and it's become his propretry. He's then made a promise that you can buy it back - what have you given him, in consideration, to make that promise legally binding?

Hopefuly someone will point out I'm wrong by citing the relevant legislation on pawnbrokers or where I have misunderstood consideration. Bear in mind when you sell something you are not, as far as I know, a consumer.

I would try showing the guy the ticket and seeing if he'll co-operate. It's in his interest given you were giving him free €40s every few weeks! Canceling and blocking the phone also seems a good idea but obviously don't lead in with this. The other issue is if the phone is legally his and you do this - he may have a claim against you. Don't get me started on privity of contract as it makes my head hurt.

The leglislation on pawnbrokers does not in any way apply here as the shop is not a pawnbrokers.

Basically they bought the phone with an agreement to sell it back within a certain time for a certain price, that is the contract and it has been broken by the shop.

Fiend-Foe

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Bear in mind when you sell something you are not, as far as I know, a consumer.

Perhaps I could be considered a consumer as I was availing of a service.

I don't know if this kind of arrangement could be considered 2 separate transactions, 1 being me handing over the phone and 2 being the buy-back/collection.

Or, if over the 28 day period a continuous 'service' is being provided.

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Canceling and blocking the phone also seems a good idea but obviously don't lead in with this. The other issue is if the phone is legally his and you do this - he may have a claim against you. Don't get me started on privity of contract as it makes my head hurt.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Tell him that you will cancel the contract and block the phone unless you get your money back. The last thing he wants is a customer coming back thinking the phone is stolen.

Can't do this as I still have my SIM card. The phone was password protected and locked, he did not have the code so he must have had the phone wiped.

im invisible wrote: »

some people have more money than sense:rolleyes:

Are any of those people here? I don't get you...

Zab

Fiend-Foe wrote: »

Can't do this as I still have my SIM card. The phone was password protected and locked, he did not have the code so he must have had the phone wiped.

The phone's IMEI number can be blocked.

I also don't see why the original sale and the agreement to sell it back to you have to be seen as different contracts although I'm not qualified to know.

Procrastastudy

It comes down to how you interpret the agreement on the reciept there. One way and probably the one that makes most sense is that it is one contract. Another though is that it become his property with an option for you to buy it back. However having studied contract law in some detail I can say that not everything operates in the most logical way.

There is no way this guy has availed of any, decent, legal advice as the thing is very poorly drafted but if I was running this type of business it's definately the way I would set up. What happens if the shop burns down? I doubt an insurance company would pay the retail prices. It would also cover me in this type of case. I suspect proper Pawnbrokers are actually regualted by consumer credit rather than common law contract. I'm very doubtful this can be seen as provision of a service. That said I'm only a first year law student so no more qualified to give you advice than anyone else 'down the pub'.

As for being a consumer I think these type of agreements are well outside of consumer legislation. I still can't find anything on Pawnbrokers in general. As Foggy has pointed out its very doubtful this guy is properly licenced. Probably the best noise you can make if he doesn't play ball is report him to as many authorities as possible.

The IMEI is independant of the SIM and to a certain extent the phone. The IMEI is blocked on the network rather than doing anything at handset level. At the very least it might make the person that bought it return it and perhaps you can negotate to get it back. That said if it is his he may be in a position to sue you for damages. That very unlikely but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Fiend-Foe

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

The IMEI is independant of the SIM and to a certain extent the phone. The IMEI is blocked on the network rather than doing anything at handset level. At the very least it might make the person that bought it return it and perhaps you can negotate to get it back. That said if it is his he may be in a position to sue you for damages. That very unlikely but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Might be something to look into. But I would be more worried that this shady guy knows my address etc, could get a knock on the door. As you can see from the poorly drafted receipt, this guy isn't exactly above board. Wouldn't surprise me really. He is often drinking with his mates in the store during the day!

Procrastastudy

Well anything you do to upset him might result in that - lets just hope he's not the like the fat one off the Wire

foggy_lad

For the Lawstudent:D

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0031/index.html

With Pawnbrokers when they sell items that are not redeemed they are only allowed take the amount of the pledge plus any interest from the selling price and must give the balance if any to the person who pawned the item.

Procrastastudy

Thanks Foggy you have no idea how embarrasing that is given I searched for that this morning.

Well... it was some sort of Pawn I was searching for at any rate.

Fiend-Foe

foggy_lad wrote: »

For the Lawstudent:D

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0031/index.html

With Pawnbrokers when they sell items that are not redeemed they are only allowed take the amount of the pledge plus any interest from the selling price and must give the balance if any to the person who pawned the item.

I wish I was dealing with something regulated in this manner. Pity.

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Thanks Foggy you have no idea how embarrasing that is given I searched for that this morning.

Well... it was some sort of Pawn I was searching for at any rate.

I know that it isn't relevant in this case, this guy is clearly not a pawnbroker! But I really appreciate you using your time and knowledge and looking into it for me.

Procrastastudy

Time I have much - knowledge well... lets just say I'm working on it.

I'd try pointing it out to him politely - it's amazing how may times people post in the Legal Discussions forum abot neighbours etc and haven't spoken to them. Fingers crossed he realises the error and helps you out.

Do keep us up to date though.

Fiend-Foe

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Time I have much - knowledge well... lets just say I'm working on it.

I'd try pointing it out to him politely - it's amazing how may times people post in the Legal Discussions forum abot neighbours etc and haven't spoken to them. Fingers crossed he realises the error and helps you out.

Do keep us up to date though.

Will do, going in to him tomorrow. Thanks...

Dymo

I don't know too much about pawn broker law, but I have a buddy who knows everything about it. Let me give him a call and we'll see where we stand.

foggy_lad

Dymo wrote: »

I don't know too much about pawn broker law, but I have a buddy who knows everything about it. Let me give him a call and we'll see where we stand.

The problem is this guy is not a pawnbroker just one of the cash converter shops that sprung up to rip people off in the worst of times!

chasm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The problem is this guy is not a pawnbroker just one of the cash converter shops that sprung up to rip people off in the worst of times!

I know the OP is referring to a different shop but some Cash converter stores offer pawn-broking loans, some just buy your stuff without the option to buy back. Judging by his receipt i would think the store where the OP carried out this transaction is a pawn brokers as they offer loans using the persons property as collateral. Whether the business is registered as a pawn broker is another story but they appear to be operating as one imo.

Fiend-Foe

So I went back in to this guy today, he wasn't having any of it (surprise, surprise).

He insisted that whilst it is usually 28 days, my girlfriend asked for a 14 day period and he merely obliged. This is not true and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Nobody would ever ask for a shorter buy-back period.

When I pointed this out to him a language barrier began to manifest itself and we lost the ability to communicate. He insists that he does not know who he sold the phone to, so I cannot approach them and offer to buy it back from them.

Need to consider my next move now

Procrastastudy

Cancel the phone and get on to the department of consumer affairs. I think the phone is gone though sheer bloody mindedness but you can certainly create some hassle for this guy.

The only issue is if this guy is really dodge then it could be the phone is in another country by now which may not be effected by blocking the IMEI. Hopefully not and he'll get it returned.

They guy is defo taking the mick if he doesn't know who it was sold to. He should be keeping records. Hopefully the gardai might get involved as it's not a massive leap to assume he doesn't much care where the stuff comes from.

OP I know times are tough but this type of paracite is not the answer. You need to get yourself into a situation where you can get though the month. In the defence of people like CeX you know what your're getting and they do take the stuff off you at a low price. At least you don't get into this stringing along on what are essentially very high interest loans.

foggy_lad

chasm wrote: »

I know the OP is referring to a different shop but some Cash converter stores offer pawn-broking loans, some just buy your stuff without the option to buy back. Judging by his receipt i would think the store where the OP carried out this transaction is a pawn brokers as they offer loans using the persons property as collateral. Whether the business is registered as a pawn broker is another story but they appear to be operating as one imo.

There are only 3 legitimate registered(a legal requirement) pawnbrokers in Ireland at present.

This store is one of the many very dodgy cash4gold/cash encounters/cash converters stores which have appeared since the demise of the head shops!

Fiend-Foe

So I just got the IMEI blacklisted. Will go into the shop tomorrow and let the guy know that if the phone reappears I would still be willing to buy it back.

Don't really see that I had any other options, hopefully it will work out.

uck51js9zml2yt

Fiend-Foe wrote: »

So I just got the IMEI blacklisted. Will go into the shop tomorrow and let the guy know that if the phone reappears I would still be willing to buy it back.

Don't really see that I had any other options, hopefully it will work out.

I could be wrong but AFAIK once its blocked its blocked and cant be unblocked so the phone is of no use.

Fiend-Foe

River Tasty Seashell wrote: »

I could be wrong but AFAIK once its blocked its blocked and cant be unblocked so the phone is of no use.

Nope, I set up a password with them which in conjunction with a verification of my details will allow me to reverse it.

uck51js9zml2yt

Fiend-Foe wrote: »

River Tasty Seashell wrote: »

I could be wrong but AFAIK once its blocked its blocked and cant be unblocked so the phone is of no use.

Nope, I set up a password with them which in conjunction with a verification of my details will allow me to reverse it.

Didn't know that.

BunShopVoyeur

im invisible wrote: »

some people have more money than sense:rolleyes:

That just makes no sense.

im invisible

BunShopVoyeur wrote: »

That just makes no sense.

wouldn't be the only thing in this thread...

dudara

Posters - please stay on topic. If you have nothing constructive to add, then please don't post.

dudara

AmyGx

If your GF had asked him for 14 days to buy it back then the receipt should have been adjusted to say 14 days but the FACT is the receipt clearly states you have 28 days to reclaim your item so regardless of what he says and even if your GF did ask for 14 days or 14 years doesnt make any difference what-so-ever the receipt says 28 days and that is how long you have to reclaim it so that guy doesnt have a leg to stand on.

Procrastastudy

Its not as simple as that. It says 14 days in one place and 28 in another. You're just picking the one you want to believe.

Also putting fact in capitals very rarely helps

gerryk

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Its not as simple as that. It says 14 days in one place and 28 in another. You're just picking the one you want to believe.

From my competely uneducated and amateur POV, I would query why the date entered manually differed from what is specified in the T&Cs. At what point does a deviation such as this become binding? If there is no signature accepting, or requesting such a deviation, can it be said to be legally binding?

I know little of these things, but it strikes me that the 'contract' here is difficult to define... or at least where the contract commences, and what it encompasses.

Procrastastudy

Its the doctrine of mistake that has completely left my brain now that I've been examined on it.

col.in.Cr

name the place so others can avoid it
cheers

dudara

col.in.Cr wrote: »

name the place so others can avoid it
cheers

col.in.Cr We do not allow naming and shaming here.

dudara